Would you shoot?

[Rambo]

You shoot, plain and simple. Once the fight begins, it's all fair. Our guys didn't shoot in Lebanon when that explosive-laden truck drove by and look what happened. If you perceive the threat is real, you take the threat out. War is war and sometimes innocent people die just because they look the part. None of our soldiers should die because someone hesitates.

[Marine1]

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

Who was he? Well… he was a policeman.

So apparently, (if I read this correctly)... this was a policeman dressed with common arabic attire, in a fire-fight and no other means of visable identification of authority, other than an AK-47? Is this their common clothing of the law enforcement in this and/or........ other areas? Or, did he just pick up an AK47, while in the area, and bolt towards friendly lines? What was the final official narrative report filed about this person in question?

[AKHunter]

Well I was going to offer a reaction as a civilian but too much was revealed before I stopped reading and decided to make a call. That being said I will not submit what I would have done at the risk of saying something that may appear contrived.

BTW, thanks for sharing that LarryO, I am sure you felt great relief at the way that situation turned out.

[meatloaf]

Im not a soldier, but as a scared, angry and confused person who just had 19 guys he knew killed. With out a doubt I would have taken the shot. I dont know rules of engagement, and at point in time it wouldn't of matterd. My guess is you made the right choice because you are here to tell us the story. I have a few uncles that saw time in desert storm, they have night mares. They wonder if they made the right decisions and wory about what god is going to think. All I can say is thank you for your sacrifice, and I would rather have our enemies dead than our own.

[GlockMeister]

WOW LarryO, great post/question.

I can't honestly say what I'd do or how I'd react. I presume you ask this in the realm of in your shoes with all the training and other stuff that would go along with it right?

Okay, presuming you said yes, I'd hope first off that my training would kick in. But I think the first thing I'd do is let him know I see him, if not get his attention by laying a round near his feet. Letting him know if he continues, the next will be the end of him.

I'm not sure of what was/is allowed. So if I'm wrong, please factor in I have no military or other training in something like this.

But to continue, I'd have to factor in if I don't react, who could be harmed from not reacting? Even though I have cover, could I get injured/killed?

All I can say, honestly say is this. I can say what I think I'd do or hope I'd do. But without really truly being there, I honestly haven't a clue. I'd hope I did the right thing and if not, I guess I'd have to except whatever happened from me reacting or not reacting...

Also, I know, training or not I'd be scared shitless (pardon my French). To say I wouldn't be, would be a lie...

[Midas]

When it gets right down to the nitty gritty, I will do everything in my power to make sure that I am still living when the ordeal ends.

[Seabeescotty]

Good post, Larry, it got folks to thinking about what military personnel go through, during times of crisis. It's not just point and shoot, but also following ROE, and having to think, "Am I doing everything right, am I doing everything I need to, in order to protect myself, and my men?" It was a very thought provoking post, and one that made me go into the dusty halls of my past, in order to "get into your boots"! Well done!

[Silent Shooter]

What are your ROE????

[jerry]

In 1996 LOAC & ROE would have dictated that I sign out a tool box and throw wrenches toward the enemy in accordinance with some AFOI. Yes, would have thrown a 5/8" open end chrome plated snap on.

Originally Posted by Silent Shooter

What are your ROE????

Rules of engagement.

Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC)

Rules of engagement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Commanders at all levels have the responsibility for protecting Air
Force assets. Command and control structures should enable commanders
to rapidly and effectively address passive defense issues and quickly
react to force protection threats with active defensive or offensive operations.
Commanders are accountable for force protection within their areas.
The unique nature of the force protection effort requires it be coordinated
and integrated at the highest levels and across all functional areas.
Integrating all aspects of force protection into operations at all
levels of command is one of the largest challenges of the commander"

[ArkansasHunter]

Jerry does all that really mean you shoot first and ask questions later because this is talking about an Air Base isn't it ?

[Seabeescotty]

No AH, it means you personally question your every move, and make sure it follows the ROE laid down by the theatre commander.

[Silent Shooter]

I am fully aware what ROE stands for as I have carried more than one of those stupid "reminder cards". What I was trying to ask was what EXACTLY were the ROE???

If he met the criteria on the ROE, I would have taken the shot. If not then I would have to stand down.

[Seabeescotty]

SS, you'd have to ask Larry that, he was the operator during the time that this post is about. My ROE in Nam was WAY different than what you younger guys deal with!

[Silent Shooter]

At one time in my military career, I had three CURRENT ROEs, all of which were different.

[nathangdad]

When a situation develops, whatever it may be, a rational man does what he does based upon his analysis of the situation.

Now, the problems come when that man thinks back on the situation and begins adding all sorts of criteria not present at the time of the situation.

Remember - the potential aggressor failed to allow time for a long, moralistic mental debate. The aggressor certainly had time to make a decision to approach without a weapon and his hands up in the air. In fact, the aggressor held all the cards for any potential outcome. You must realize the aggressor has blame in this situation. You do not have to carry the burden through your life.

I do not intend to sound cruel, but you need to throw this monkey off your back and move on. Otherwise, you will play "what if" scenarios over and over until you become unstable.

You survived, you took appropriate action based on your analysis of the situation, and you must get on with the business of living.

Most men have a time of crisis at some point in their lives. I, and if they are honest, 99.9% of the men on this forum have been faced with tough deals and had to move on. You past is just that - it is your past. Your duty to God, to your loved ones, and to yourself is what you make of today and tomorrow.


Good luck and good shooting.

[Seabeescotty]

That could get confusing!

[irish murphy]

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

Okay... I've gotta run this past more shooters for their opinions.
In 1996, I was stationed in Saudi Arabia. We were attacked on 25 June 1996 by a VBIED of over 20,000 to 30,000 Pounds of TNT, according to General Downing.
After the fact... we moved to the area to secure the damaged fence line.
Put yourself in my position... a 25 year old male... just saw 19 of your own people killed... and you see an Arab running towards you in traditional dress (no uniform) and an AK-47 in hand... at the ready.
You have cover... he has capability and opportunity... but does he have intent?
Consider the language barrier ...
Would you have fired?

I wouldnt have battered an eye lid mate,would have shot controlled bursts until the bastard fell over and didnt get up again.

[LarryO1970]

Irish, you would have killed a policeman.

I was able to monitor the possible threat (from cover) until it was determined the man was not a threat.

The possible threat had the opportunity, had the capability... but did not show any intent to use that capability. Our basic ROE on deadly force was not reached, therefore, I did not fire.

Trust me... it was very close, the trigger was almost ready to crack...

[sc928porsche]

When it comes down to it, the final decision is yours to make. YOU are the one who has to live with it and to get on with your life. Each of us have to adjust to those nightmares as best as we can. 64-72

[irish murphy]

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

Irish, you would have killed a policeman.

I was able to monitor the possible threat (from cover) until it was determined the man was not a threat.

The possible threat had the opportunity, had the capability... but did not show any intent to use that capability. Our basic ROE on deadly force was not reached, therefore, I did not fire.

Trust me... it was very close, the trigger was almost ready to crack...

Well so be it.Its a different story if it was live and i saw the situation with my own eyes and not reading the text.But a question like that is going to get the same response from me everyday of the week.Shoot and survive.