Corrections, clarifications on eye for an eye - Page 2

BenP · 08-22-2002, 04:15 PM

The point is, an eye for an eye was a directive to the state. Turn the other cheek was a directive to the individual. Judgement must be reserved exclusively to the majority, and suspended from the aggreived, otherwise, back to Hatfields and McCoys(anarchy) which still doesn't work.

Oxford · 08-22-2002, 04:48 PM

BenP: I'll second your comments. That's about how I'm aligned on this subject, too.
Oxford

08-22-2002, 06:30 PM

Jews do not sacrifice animals any longer. But the old and new testament both have occurances of animal sacrifice.

Like you, I believe in being judged by life actions and not affirmations.

Ask a preacher if he believes that people can get into heaven after they have rejected christ. I think it is a universal christian belief that it is not possible.

BenP · 08-23-2002, 02:23 PM

I would tend to concur with the preachers. If you are given the word of God and you reject it, you reject God. For me to reject Christ is to face condemnation, but that's just my belief. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Jews, in my opinion, rejected Christ and also violate the old testament laws and have sinned. They have no means for remuneration, so they are condemned. To make it to heaven without intercession, you would have to be sinless, and no one (except Christ) has ever been. Even Daniel admitted he had transgressed against God. I don't accept original sin (Catholicism of mankind inheriting Adam's sin and thus all were condemned). I believe you are judged on the actions you do, not someone else. Those of us who have been shown the truth and reject it are in peril.

Those who have not received the word of God, and are ignorant of Christ, would by default have to be judged on their actions and their hearts. Children who are too young to comprehend would fall into this category. So would anyone who is isolated enough from civilized influence that they would not know to ask to be forgiven for their sin in Christ's name. Hebrews before Christ's coming would also fall into this category. The modern day jews do not have this option. They've been given a decision to make, and they've made it. As long as they live, they're entitled to change their mind, but once they're dead, the show's over. How else does a jew expect to get into heaven? Through good works?

I guess Christians could still perform animal sacrifices to God, but what for? The ultimate sacrifice was already made, so there'd be no need for more blood. It'd be like putting more money in a parking meter when the indicator is already at maximum.

I'd rather live a life of spiritual fruitiness and accept Christ as my advocate. It don't hurt to be a little extra careful, and they go together pretty well anyhow. Obey God's laws, while at the same time believing in Christ. Where's the down side?

NRAJOE · 08-23-2002, 02:27 PM

Hey Ben not to be an a s s but I think you mean spiritual fruitFULness, not "fruitiness" lol

08-23-2002, 03:24 PM

What do you mean that the Jews violated the old testament? The Jews follow the old testament quite strictly. Please explain.

Think about this: A person lives a good life (an entire lifetime of good deeds and such) and makes one decision (not to accept Christ) along the way is condemned to hell forever. Another person is a compulsive sinner all their life. At the very end the person accepts Christ. Those who acceot Christ go to heaven, right? The righteous person burns and the sinner goes to paradise.
So basically, according to the new testament, it doesnt really matter what you do in life as long as you accept Christ before you die.
It's no wonder the Jews regard the new testament as a book of stories and nothing more.
P.S. Something else that doesn't make sense: The son of God was a Jew. All jews (except Christ) burn in hell. That's a pretty bad message.

Hud · 08-25-2002, 01:29 PM

It's Sunday, a good day to talk about the Bible and such.

Lenny, A person living a good life is not a righteous person. It is Jesus is who puts a person in right standing with God. Like Ben P quoted "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

Adam took us out of right standing with God. Jesus set aside his Godliness, gave his earthly life, risked his whole excistence to make us right, once again, in front of God. All we have to do is ask.

There are a lot of Jews, born again, going to heaven. Starting with Jesus's disciples. Well with Jesus, actually.

Chris · 08-25-2002, 02:06 PM

If someone lays a finger on me, they better be able to run faster than me, because I have learned that if you let someone push you around they will continue to do so until you make a stand.

If a person is talking crap to me, well I won't punch them over that, because they are just running their mouth, although I have came close to doing it to this guy when he was talking about a girl, me and my morals.

I am against violence, but I am for self-defense, if someone hits you in the back of the head, defend yourself.

The bible does not say because I killed your brother, you should kill mine, I do not belive it says that at all. To each his own tho.

BenP · 08-26-2002, 03:46 PM

Lenny,

The gospel points out what I see as several examples of how law abiding Jews (Pharisees, Saducees, Scribes) were able to make claim that they were living according to God's laws, but that their heart was motivated by sin, and thus they sinned in their hearts. Jesus confounded their teachings because he exposed them and the way they perverted God's directives and used them for selfish ends. Paul, who did not know Jesus, was one of the law abiding Jewish leaders who rebuked Jesus's teachings because they threatened the power that the religious leaders were trying to maintain. His conversion involved a miracle, but his understanding of how Jewish religion operated, and how man had tried to mold God to their own ends, allowed him to continue to challenge Jewish religious law and convert more Jews and gentiles to Christianity than would've been possible otherwise.

The bottom line is that Jews believe that their actions (works) are what will get them into heaven. The law does not allow for even one mistake without condemnation. Jesus told them that their faith (hearts) would dictate whether they made it in or not, and that they needed to admit that they were inadequate when it came to the law because of the sin in their heart/spirit/mind/essence. They rejected that and continue to believe in their deeds. Jesus said that you could fail in deed and still be saved if you're heart was right. The next step is one of faith, which is to accept that he would pay the price for the sins all of us, even the law abiding Jews, would commit. I'm not saying you should quit following the law of God, and neither did he. In fact, the new testament expounds on how we are to incorporate the law not just into our lives, but into our hearts, and to let Jesus break down the barrier of sin so that we can be one with God again.

Read a book called "Benjamin Alexander Sheep" if you can find it.

Elohim Chaiyim.

BenP · 08-26-2002, 05:00 PM

Why I like this system so much...

1. I am a failure when it comes to sin.

2. My entry into heaven only depends on me doing one thing.

3. The law (of God) supports my decision.

4. If I am wrong about my committment, at least I am living a positive life that agrees with my sense of morals and ethics, even if I don't always get it right.

The other path would make me feel like it was about me too much, like God has nothing to do with it. I can still live in the law, just factor in salvation and I've hedged my bet, so to speak. It may not sound that good, but it let's me sleep at night.

Does a Jew commit adultery if he thinks about having sex with a woman he's not married to? How about if he thinks about owning the car his neighbor drives, is that breaking God's law? How about if he thinks about eating bacon? How does a Jew atone for sin like that?

BenP · 08-27-2002, 01:35 PM

So, whether you're a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim, when the use of force is needed for protection, it is authorized. Otherwise, it should be avoided. A slap in the face is offensive, but is not in and of itself threatening. A slap in the face from a person who intends to do bodily harm is threatening. After all, what do you think the "necessary force" rule is based on?

BenP · 08-27-2002, 03:12 PM

Can anyone point out any bad advice Jesus gave us? Except for Revelations, is there anything in the New testament that conflicts with our societies sense of morals and ethics, or even our laws?

I'm not saying Jewish Law is wrong, it just doesn't go far enough. It's that next big step that is what reaches down into us and exposes our essence for what we really are, not just how we appear on the outside.

BenP · 08-27-2002, 04:46 PM

Does anyone else besides me ever wonder what it would be like if Jesus were alive today and hanging out with you. Imagine taking him to a football game. How do you think he'd react to our lifestyle?

alan c. · 08-27-2002, 05:36 PM

You know Ben my wife and I were talking about how life seems to wear us down. We are so tired of the everyday grind. We pray for the return of Jesus just so we can have the promised comfort. Well Ben Jesus is alive, but I knew what you meant. Football yeah he would like it. And if he were a betting man I would hang with him.

alan c. · 08-27-2002, 05:42 PM

Ben your words are in my heart, but I am not the skilled orator that you are. Your words are well recieved.

BenP · 08-28-2002, 10:34 AM

Thank you. I work with what I've been given.

alan c. · 08-28-2002, 06:52 PM

Amen Sir.

08-22-2002, 04:48 PM	#22
Oxford Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Gladstone, Missouri Posts: 13,023 Blog Entries: 4	BenP: I'll second your comments. That's about how I'm aligned on this subject, too. Oxford __________________ "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right".

08-23-2002, 02:23 PM	#24
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395	I would tend to concur with the preachers. If you are given the word of God and you reject it, you reject God. For me to reject Christ is to face condemnation, but that's just my belief. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Jews, in my opinion, rejected Christ and also violate the old testament laws and have sinned. They have no means for remuneration, so they are condemned. To make it to heaven without intercession, you would have to be sinless, and no one (except Christ) has ever been. Even Daniel admitted he had transgressed against God. I don't accept original sin (Catholicism of mankind inheriting Adam's sin and thus all were condemned). I believe you are judged on the actions you do, not someone else. Those of us who have been shown the truth and reject it are in peril. Those who have not received the word of God, and are ignorant of Christ, would by default have to be judged on their actions and their hearts. Children who are too young to comprehend would fall into this category. So would anyone who is isolated enough from civilized influence that they would not know to ask to be forgiven for their sin in Christ's name. Hebrews before Christ's coming would also fall into this category. The modern day jews do not have this option. They've been given a decision to make, and they've made it. As long as they live, they're entitled to change their mind, but once they're dead, the show's over. How else does a jew expect to get into heaven? Through good works? I guess Christians could still perform animal sacrifices to God, but what for? The ultimate sacrifice was already made, so there'd be no need for more blood. It'd be like putting more money in a parking meter when the indicator is already at maximum. I'd rather live a life of spiritual fruitiness and accept Christ as my advocate. It don't hurt to be a little extra careful, and they go together pretty well anyhow. Obey God's laws, while at the same time believing in Christ. Where's the down side? Last edited by BenP; 08-23-2002 at 02:25 PM.

08-23-2002, 02:27 PM	#25
NRAJOE Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Toledo,OH Posts: 19,052 Images: 3	Hey Ben not to be an a s s but I think you mean spiritual fruitFULness, not "fruitiness" lol __________________ U.S. Army 1976-1979 237th Combat Engineers Heilbronn, Germany

08-25-2002, 01:29 PM	#27
Hud Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Out state, Minnesota Posts: 118	It's Sunday, a good day to talk about the Bible and such. Lenny, A person living a good life is not a righteous person. It is Jesus is who puts a person in right standing with God. Like Ben P quoted "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Adam took us out of right standing with God. Jesus set aside his Godliness, gave his earthly life, risked his whole excistence to make us right, once again, in front of God. All we have to do is ask. There are a lot of Jews, born again, going to heaven. Starting with Jesus's disciples. Well with Jesus, actually. __________________ The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." -Senator Hubert H. Humprey -

08-25-2002, 02:06 PM	#28
Chris HMFIC Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,834,171 Images: 19 Blog Entries: 18	If someone lays a finger on me, they better be able to run faster than me, because I have learned that if you let someone push you around they will continue to do so until you make a stand. If a person is talking crap to me, well I won't punch them over that, because they are just running their mouth, although I have came close to doing it to this guy when he was talking about a girl, me and my morals. I am against violence, but I am for self-defense, if someone hits you in the back of the head, defend yourself. The bible does not say because I killed your brother, you should kill mine, I do not belive it says that at all. To each his own tho. __________________ Rules \| Contributing Members No one has the right to deny my personal safety Please be descriptive in your thread titles!

08-22-2002, 04:15 PM	#21
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395	The point is, an eye for an eye was a directive to the state. Turn the other cheek was a directive to the individual. Judgement must be reserved exclusively to the majority, and suspended from the aggreived, otherwise, back to Hatfields and McCoys(anarchy) which still doesn't work.

08-22-2002, 06:30 PM	#23
Lenny2 Guest Posts: n/a	Jews do not sacrifice animals any longer. But the old and new testament both have occurances of animal sacrifice. Like you, I believe in being judged by life actions and not affirmations. Ask a preacher if he believes that people can get into heaven after they have rejected christ. I think it is a universal christian belief that it is not possible.

08-23-2002, 03:24 PM	#26
Lenny2 Guest Posts: n/a	What do you mean that the Jews violated the old testament? The Jews follow the old testament quite strictly. Please explain. Think about this: A person lives a good life (an entire lifetime of good deeds and such) and makes one decision (not to accept Christ) along the way is condemned to hell forever. Another person is a compulsive sinner all their life. At the very end the person accepts Christ. Those who acceot Christ go to heaven, right? The righteous person burns and the sinner goes to paradise. So basically, according to the new testament, it doesnt really matter what you do in life as long as you accept Christ before you die. It's no wonder the Jews regard the new testament as a book of stories and nothing more. P.S. Something else that doesn't make sense: The son of God was a Jew. All jews (except Christ) burn in hell. That's a pretty bad message.

08-26-2002, 03:46 PM	#29
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395	Lenny, The gospel points out what I see as several examples of how law abiding Jews (Pharisees, Saducees, Scribes) were able to make claim that they were living according to God's laws, but that their heart was motivated by sin, and thus they sinned in their hearts. Jesus confounded their teachings because he exposed them and the way they perverted God's directives and used them for selfish ends. Paul, who did not know Jesus, was one of the law abiding Jewish leaders who rebuked Jesus's teachings because they threatened the power that the religious leaders were trying to maintain. His conversion involved a miracle, but his understanding of how Jewish religion operated, and how man had tried to mold God to their own ends, allowed him to continue to challenge Jewish religious law and convert more Jews and gentiles to Christianity than would've been possible otherwise. The bottom line is that Jews believe that their actions (works) are what will get them into heaven. The law does not allow for even one mistake without condemnation. Jesus told them that their faith (hearts) would dictate whether they made it in or not, and that they needed to admit that they were inadequate when it came to the law because of the sin in their heart/spirit/mind/essence. They rejected that and continue to believe in their deeds. Jesus said that you could fail in deed and still be saved if you're heart was right. The next step is one of faith, which is to accept that he would pay the price for the sins all of us, even the law abiding Jews, would commit. I'm not saying you should quit following the law of God, and neither did he. In fact, the new testament expounds on how we are to incorporate the law not just into our lives, but into our hearts, and to let Jesus break down the barrier of sin so that we can be one with God again. Read a book called "Benjamin Alexander Sheep" if you can find it. Elohim Chaiyim. Last edited by BenP; 08-26-2002 at 03:50 PM.

08-26-2002, 05:00 PM	#30
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395	Why I like this system so much... 1. I am a failure when it comes to sin. 2. My entry into heaven only depends on me doing one thing. 3. The law (of God) supports my decision. 4. If I am wrong about my committment, at least I am living a positive life that agrees with my sense of morals and ethics, even if I don't always get it right. The other path would make me feel like it was about me too much, like God has nothing to do with it. I can still live in the law, just factor in salvation and I've hedged my bet, so to speak. It may not sound that good, but it let's me sleep at night. Does a Jew commit adultery if he thinks about having sex with a woman he's not married to? How about if he thinks about owning the car his neighbor drives, is that breaking God's law? How about if he thinks about eating bacon? How does a Jew atone for sin like that?

08-27-2002, 01:35 PM	#31
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395	So, whether you're a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim, when the use of force is needed for protection, it is authorized. Otherwise, it should be avoided. A slap in the face is offensive, but is not in and of itself threatening. A slap in the face from a person who intends to do bodily harm is threatening. After all, what do you think the "necessary force" rule is based on?

08-27-2002, 03:12 PM	#32
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395	Can anyone point out any bad advice Jesus gave us? Except for Revelations, is there anything in the New testament that conflicts with our societies sense of morals and ethics, or even our laws? I'm not saying Jewish Law is wrong, it just doesn't go far enough. It's that next big step that is what reaches down into us and exposes our essence for what we really are, not just how we appear on the outside.

08-27-2002, 04:46 PM	#33
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395	Does anyone else besides me ever wonder what it would be like if Jesus were alive today and hanging out with you. Imagine taking him to a football game. How do you think he'd react to our lifestyle?

08-27-2002, 05:36 PM	#34
alan c. Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pasadena,Tejas - also known as Texas Posts: 3,767 Images: 15	You know Ben my wife and I were talking about how life seems to wear us down. We are so tired of the everyday grind. We pray for the return of Jesus just so we can have the promised comfort. Well Ben Jesus is alive, but I knew what you meant. Football yeah he would like it. And if he were a betting man I would hang with him. __________________ God Bless. From Tejas -- formerly known as Texas.

08-27-2002, 05:42 PM	#35
alan c. Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pasadena,Tejas - also known as Texas Posts: 3,767 Images: 15	Ben your words are in my heart, but I am not the skilled orator that you are. Your words are well recieved. __________________ God Bless. From Tejas -- formerly known as Texas.

08-28-2002, 10:34 AM	#36
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395	Thank you. I work with what I've been given.

08-28-2002, 06:52 PM	#37
alan c. Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pasadena,Tejas - also known as Texas Posts: 3,767 Images: 15	Amen Sir. __________________ God Bless. From Tejas -- formerly known as Texas.