Received this in an email today....most approprate, thinking, I would assume?....What are your thoughts on this subject?................(No copyright implied)......
Narrative....
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force.
Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats.
The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations.
These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.
People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.
Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways.
Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker.
If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.
When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid.
It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid.
It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
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I think this portion is the most effective in the article and a damn fine point.
This is very true. When you bring a gun into the situation many physical attributes are instantly thrown out the window.
I know when I studied marital arts (done it for years off and on my whole life pretty much) we did such things as knife and gun defense. Yes, it is totally possible to disarm a fully resisting fighting opponent, however, even if you succeed you are mostly likely going to get stabbed or shot in the process. Those techniques are very high level moves. I haven't seen anyone who knows the dodge bullets kung fu yet, so to my knowledge that doesn't exist.
Really though at the same time I must wonder how force am I willing to execute over a mugging? Obviously that person is desperate for whatever reason, and is mugging me out of that despeartion. Is my wallet worth more than someone's life? Not to say that it will always end in a gun fight but if you pull your gun you'd better be damn sure you are going to use it, otherwise that could end up their gun. Sure, I could survive and have my possessions, but man I got to sleep at night at the same time.
While I think almost all people that carry would never want to actually use their gun, there are of course non lethal alternatives like stun guns and mace. Then again you always put yourself at risk no matter what method you employ. A lot of times when confronted with a criminal they will have a partner not far off. I have seen it many times where I live, they always got a home boy about a block or so away being a look out and of course for back up. You gotta keep that in mind as well.
I agree with everything except carrying a gun is a civilized act, because if we were actually civilized we wouldn't need to carry any kind of weapon with us be it a sword, knife, gun, mace, stun gun, bat, club, whatever.
I think it is subjective and it can't be as black and white as force and persuasion and that fighting and combat are two completely chaotic things. You never know what is going to happen you can either act or react, and sometimes reacting is too late. You need to go with your gut feeling really.
I am not sure about everyone else on this forum but I can feel anger around me. When someone wants to pick a fight with me I can sense it, how they look at me, talk to me, etc. I think it has to do with my training and fighting along with it. You can pick up on someone's intentions in physical contact like that. I know when my sparring partner had a bad day and is taking it out on me instead of focusing and sparring, I can feel that.
I avoided a fight about a month ago. Went to macon to go visit my dying great grand ma. My little brother and I went out to one of like the only two bars in town that night. We were obvious out of towners and one drunken redneck did not like us one bit. I could see him pining in his drink, staring at us, occasionally walking over and mean mugging us. He and his buddy wanted to pick a fight no doubt about it. I could sense it. I knew that I was not from here, my brother has no idea how to fight (not that I am a great fighter, but I can defend myself), and we were most likely going to be out numbered. We left immediately because I wanted to remove myself from that situation.
You just got to go with your feeling on the situation and apply whatever force is needed, to me that is more civilized. Just my opinion though.
Really though at the same time I must wonder how force am I willing to execute over a mugging? Obviously that person is desperate for whatever reason, and is mugging me out of that despeartion. Is my wallet worth more than someone's life? Not to say that it will always end in a gun fight but if you pull your gun you'd better be damn sure you are going to use it, otherwise that could end up their gun. Sure, I could survive and have my possessions, but man I got to sleep at night at the same time.
While I see your point, I have to disagree. People get mugged because of many reasons - desperation may be one of them, but not the only one. Someone may want more beer/crack/gambling money or whatnot. I don't call that desperation, I call it greed.
In the end, I really don't think the motive matters. Someone is willing to do violence to me or someone else who does not deserve it. Too many times, people are severely harmed or killed even after they give up their possessions to a criminal. Sometimes the "take" isn't as much as expected. Sometimes they don't want a witness. To me, it's not worth my life, eyesight, continued normal function of my bowels, continued use of my limbs, or grief to my loved ones during a lengthy hospital stay to find out. If they do not wish to have violence done to them, then they simply need not threaten it on me.
In my opinion, this is the kind of thinking that allowed 9/11 to happen. The idea that they've only got box cutters, that they'll land and negotiate, and everything would work out was what seems to have prevailed on the first airplanes. If a group of people would have taken the initiative and overpowered the hijackers prior to their taking control of the airplanes, we would be reading about a failed plot.
Please understand that I am not being flippant, nor do I fault anyone on those airplanes (other than the hijackers) for what they did or did not do. They did as they had been told and trained to do. Unfortunately, the training was wrong for a situation nobody had contemplated. Had they known the true intentions of the attackers, I'm sure we would have seen repeats of the shoe bomber's treatment.
I have not yet decided whether or not to carry a gun on a regular basis, but I am leaning towards carrying. I'll probably carry concealed most of the time, but I'm sure that there are times when I will carry exposed as well and feel that it's a great thing to be able to do so here in Nevada without many legal restrictions. I will, however, go through training and a whole lot of practice before I trust myself to carry a firearm in public.
I'd have to agree that carrying a gun is a civilized act in that it gives the person carrying it a much greater chance of overcoming uncivilized acts which might be perpetrated on themselves or others. It is a personal decision which should not be treated lightly. It's a statement to the person carrying, any who might need to be protected, and those who oppose that person that unjustified deadly force will not be tolerated and will be met with the same. I personally don't see any difference between a police officer carrying and a private citizen doing the same thing, but that's my opinoin and yours may vary.
Please don't take this as meaning that someone who chooses not to carry a weapon is somehow a lower class or rung because of that decision. They have every right to live as they choose in a free country and I won't criticize them for a moment for it. If someone chooses not to carry a weapon, or instead of a gun decides to carry a can of mace, pepper spray/foam/gel, a stun gun, a key chain baton, or just a set of keys, that's up to them to and I wish them as anyone the best of luck in a bad encounter with a bad person.
Thinking about carrying a gun for me is still a big decision, no matter which way I lean. I know I'll probably second-guess myself either way if I can't avoid a confrontation. If I have to actually use my gun to stop a threat, I will likely lose sleep and require counseling. It's the nature of the beast if you will.
Even with sleepless nights and second guessing, I know I've had some rough times before and I've learned the hard way that it's best to focus on the positive, enjoy the exchange of oxygen for CO2, light on the retinas, and have faith that things will get better in the future.
Have a great, safe night everyone !
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Send lawyers, guns, and money - the S has HTF
In many respects I agree and yet disagree with tlarkin on this, I choose to carry and defend myself because I refuse adamantly to have either myself or my loved ones ever become victims again. Much of what I learned in law enforcement taught me the the "average" criminal really don't give a rats about you, your loved ones or how many Grandkids you got. All they care about is what they can take from you (which in their minds most times already is theirs and they just picking it up) and what happens to you whether you live or die, crippled for life or a brain dead vegtable really doesn't matter to them. THEY DON'T CARE! Simple point boys and girls is this and anyone today that walks these streets and tries to do whats right better listen too. If you attempt to assault me or mine be prepared to accept pain, because I will respond in kind to your attack, I will break your bones, I will shoot you repeatedly if necessary, and /or I will cut you. Leave me and mine alone and I will let you pass if you do not choose to do so be prepared to suffer the consequences of YOUR actions!
Pretty simple ain't it? Just pass on by and all is right with your world, intrude on mine and well let's just things won't be quite so rosy!
__________________ "You can have my Freedom when I'm done with it!"
tlarkin,
I'd also have to disagree with part of your post. I don't know where you live, but around here, there are quite a few threats besides uncivilized humans.
To me, a gun is just another tool to be used to accomplish the task at hand. That task may be shooting tiny groups, keeping a rabid skunk from making me rabid, keeping my money in my possesion, keeping my family safe from lowlifes, or stopping an attacking television set.
I agree that deadly force is a last resort, but it is a necessary evil.
I have had knives in my face and had a loaded gun pointed at me before with the intentions of robbing me. Even if I was armed I would have not pulled it due to the fact that they had the jump on me the few times I have been mugged.
It is out of desperation regardless of how you look at it. The guy who pulled the knife on me was a crack head, no doubt about it. I have them all over the city where I live and they venture down to my part of town to beg for money and or rob you if necessary. All criminals are desperate, for them self, their family, their vice.
I was drunk at a bar all night. I walked there and did not drive, thinking it was responsible since I knew I was going to get hammered. I decided to walk down the unlit part of my neighborhood and most likely was swaying back and forth. Anyone could have seen I was wasted a mile away. Next thing I know I have some nappy ass crack head in my face yelling at me and I can barely understand him, but what I do understand is the 5 inch blade he is holding about an inch from my face. I reach in my pocket and grab all the loose cash I had, and gave it to him, he took it and ran off. I think he also stole the pack of smokes I had on me as well. Since I was drunk it is a bit fuzzy, but I do know that I did in fact keep my wallet, he just got all the cash. Couldn't have been more than 15 dollars in my pocket after the bars. I never walk away with too much cash on hand after a night of drinking with friends.
In the end, my life was not worth the 15 dollars that was taken from me, nor would I have ever even tried to fight back unless I felt I had to do so to survive.
Answering to violence with violence is not a civilized act at all. I am on the fence about carrying for myself and am thinking I may get my permit one of these days. I am not faulting anyone who carries and defends them self. If they kill someone that is something they will have to live with the rest of their life, and something I have taken into consideration.
I agree with ezearln, if you do threaten me or mine you will answer to me, and I know how to do all kinds of nasty painful and fatal things to the human body with out a gun or a knife, give me a weapon and it makes it way easier. If my neighborhoods do get worse and worse over the next couple of years I may start carrying, but what I will never do is carry while out drinking and partying with friends. Since I never really go out by myself and am always with people I would pretty much never need to really carry. My brother got robbed by a shotgun from a car that just puled up on him. I have had drunks wave guns at me and name call me from the streets, I have seen people shoot a gun (assuming at other people, I didn't stick around to find out) at this really shady gas station where i used to live, probably a drug deal gone bad. I used to live behind the only grocery store in this part of town and I was roused from my sleep by a series of gun shots, which I got to read all about in that next days paper. A gun fight broke out in the parking lot of the grocery store which was like 150 feet from my house.
Bad stuff happens all the time around where I live but I just choose to avoid it. It is like Bruce Lee once said, "It's the art of fighting with out fighting," and it has kept me safe for the most part my entire life. Sure I have had a few muggings but the rest of the stuff I was mainly just a bystander. I will not live in fear from it, and I also don't put myself in situations where I would have to deal with anyone like that. I definitely don't walk home super wasted through neighborhoods anymore. I walk down main streets with street lights and traffic, or I take a taxi. I won't risk my life for a few dollars because I know how easy it is to kill someone, and if I know how easy it is I am sure the criminal knows too.
I just know I never want to deal with killing someone, unless I had to absolutely do it for survival. I am not some cry baby bleeding heart pacifist either but I do have a general respect for life. I just don't get the macho action hero stigma that is associated with carrying a gun and fighting off criminals. If they are going to rob you, mug you, confront you, they are most likely going to get the jump on you in the first place, then you will have to decide if your life is worth it or not. Most criminals just want to steal from you and go, they are well aware what murder charges carry.
I carry. I carry two different handguns. One is a Taser gun. The other is a .357 S&W 681. The Taser is a great gun. Unlike pepper spray and stun guns the Taser disrupts the bodys own electrical system putting em down. Pepper spray doesnt work on people on meth and other drugs. Stun guns you have to touch your attacker. The Taser you can fire from 15 feet away and it works as long as you hit em. If they get up and try to come after you again you just pull the trigger again and it knocks em back down.
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The .357 is last resort. If you have to put em down you better have firepower to do it. I have seen 9mm rounds bounce off skulls from 10 feet away. If I pull the big iron it has to do its job every time.
One thing I will say is you really dont want to kill anyone. It is a huge responsibility to carry a handgun. You damm well better know what your doing.
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It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.
Taser, that sounds interesting, what does one of those run? I also found a net gun lol online the other day.
As for a 9mm bouncing off a skull, OK, even if that did happen (which I can't believe) it would still knock them the **** out. Plus why aim for the head in the first part, it is smaller and more mobile, the torso is bigger and not as mobile. It would make more sense to pump rounds into someone's torso over going for a head shot.
Oh I see your link there. In your experience how well do the taser guns work? Are they accurate and how many shots do you get with them?
One of the biggest things I keep reading over and over again in self defense literature (echoed by LEOs) is that you should at all times try to avoid a confrontation. I wholly agree there. It sounds like you have learned this the hard way and I'm not trying to say that you should've seen it coming. Many times people talk about being more polite and/or more careful of their surroundings when carrying because they don't want to have to use their weapon. I think it's a pretty good idea overall.
Answering to violence with violence is not a civilized act at all.
I have to disagree. I look at the other side of the coin. What else is there to do to preserve civilization? One cannot simply allow violence to happen to someone else who does not have the capacity to resist and call that a civilized act. I know I could not walk away from that situation if I had the means to end that violence. Likewise, I don't think it's a civilized act to tolerate violence being committed on one's self, especially when there is absolutely no way to know for sure just how severe that violence will be.
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Send lawyers, guns, and money - the S has HTF
A taser is a one shot gun. Its very accurate. It works better than you can imagine. You have to shoot them in the leg or butt if they have heavy coats on. If the guy standing next to you has one you have two shots. Thats why you have the .357. I only have 6 shots with that. But if I pull the trigger it goes BOOM.
As for the 9 bouncing off the guys skull I wasnt shooting him. I was standing next to the guy shooting. I didnt say it didnt knock him down. It sure the hell did. But it did bounce off. I have also seen a 9 bounce off two different dog skulls. I have taken a few handgun classes. And one in the head and two in the chest is a pretty good way to knock someone down.
Thats another good thing about a Taser. It works just fine on dogs. Sure beats having to gouge their eyes to get them off someone.
Another good class is the dirty dozen. 12 ways to kill or maim an attacker. I posted that link to the Tasers so you can see what the prices and specs are on them.
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It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.
I feel that, if someone wants to harm me, or my family, he better bring a lunch, and there's nothing macho about that. The justice system already mollycoddles criminals, does that mean we have to stand by, and let them live off of us, like the parasites they are? I should hope not! If their profession gets too dangerous, maybe they'll turn to a legal means of surviving. It's strange to me How things have changed in today's society, the criminal has more rights than the victim, and doesn't even have to take responsibility for his actions. I'm afraid something has gone terribly wrong.
Common since and what I learned at my excellent concealed carry class says to avoid places where you can become a victim of a crime.
With that said you never really know if and when your going to be a victim of a crime so when you carry, carry your pistol in a means to be able to draw in a second !
Practise drawing, buy a holster where you can draw your piece in a flash, always keep the 21 foot rule in your mind and keep your eyes open and aware at all times.
When my son went to cop school they spent a lot of time drawing there pistols, we need to do the same.
Just unload it, before you start practicing, A lot of folks have done themselves damage, trying to learn to draw with a loaded weapon. Even police officers.
i read something like this awhile back and i love it.
how often do you see a goblin attacking someone who will put up a fight? one on one? not often if ever cause they are cowards taking the easy way out. i get off lucky for the most part. i am 6'2", 325 lbs, too much fat for my own good, and i manage to weight train regularly. so i am a large imposing guy. last week i was at a friends daughters social and a buddies pal who i never met wouldn't sit at our table cause i made him nervous. i have heard this before. cant really say this perception of me bothers me that much. a while before that one of my kids friends was getting hassled in town as i was passing through and i pulled over and asked him if everthing was ok. i got out of my car and the younsters bailed, promptly. this perception of my size has granted me more peace than problems, i am ok with that. the cowards choose the pushovers and if the pushovers were properly instructed on firearms they would have the peace that i do.
Thanks Scotty I guess i took it for granted, The shooting instructor told everyone at my concealed carry class to know where your trigger finger is at all times when hndleing all firearms.
He said if he caught anyone in this class with there finger on the trigger they would be sent home and your money would not be refunded.
Well I took what he said to heart but when we got to the range to shoot I was the first one he caught with the finger on the trigger.
He didn't send me home though but he sure took a chunk out of my azz....LOL
We were lined up to fire at targets and I boobooed.
Fortuinitly for me 6 others got there azz chewed out to later.
Made a beleiver out me !!!! They said I turned beat red !
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