[big shrek]

And this is why EVERYONE should own a Calico Liberty Pistol in 9mm!!!

100 rounds per magazine...

Beat that!!

[ArkansasHunter]

Quote:       Originally Posted by oldjarhead

It all boils down to the fact that the best weapon in a firefight will be the one you have with you at the time. Assessment and calculation of the situation will determine your response.

Really this is true...

[ArkansasHunter]

Quote:       Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Ok, Ive been doing quite a bit of thinking and researching (on top of all the other I had already done), mostly about the .22LR. I am considering a 10/22 as a primary SHTF weapon, mostly because Id then have the option for much larger magazines (instead of 10rd). Other advantages would be much less noise and muzzle flash, much cheaper (I could afford to practice 10x as much, literally, than with my 9mm carbine), and much smaller ammunition meaning easier to carry. This would be for an On-The-Run, SHTF situation. There would be no desire to get into any gun fights, and since I like to focus on shot placement anyways I'd do the same no matter what caliber I was using. As far as home defense, Im thinking Ill trade my 9mm carbine in toward some 9mm or even .45 pistol, so as to be sure I am doing the most possible damage for the few shots I might be able to make in true CQC. But, for anything out of the house the 10/22 would be my primary weapon (unless it was like, my back yard). Id either carry my .22 pistol or the HD pistol as a BUG for SHTF, but Ill have to decide on that later (obviously both have advantages). My main concern about the .22 is the ability to penetrate a skull. The hottest .22LR rounds I found on CheaperThanDirt (40gr @1470fps) has almost the exact same energy as one of the hottest .32ACP rounds I found on the same site (60gr @ 1200fps), and I have never heard anyone state that the .32ACP won't penetrate a skull. Hell, on BrassFetcher.com, the average penetration of the .22LRs is deeper than that of the .32s they tested. This gives me reason to believe that most of the beliefs that a .22LR won't penetrate the skull come from either very old accounts (before more modern plating and velocity advancements), or from typical internet hearsay and the also-typical "yeah, I believe that too, so Ill also repeat that it is probably true." Just making sure that if, hypothetically speaking, zombies were attacking, that I'd be able to efficiently dispose of them . I am not talking about hit men shooting point blank into the temple and what not, I am just talking about if I hit a skull at 20 yards (from any common angle), the round will most likely penetrate, correct? As far as the wound channel, a good .22lr (which is what Id be using, the aforementioned 40gr @ 1400+fps rounds) will expand to about .34", or almost the diameter of a 9mm FMJ. And, being honest, I don't see myself ever having more than a few mags worth of 9mm HPs around (for HD / carry), and the rest would be FMJ. Lastly, from testing Ive seen, penetration should easily meet the 12" minimum. So, as far as its effectiveness for my needs, there shouldnt be too much of a difference from my current 9mm. So yeah, what do you guys think about all this? Thanks.

JM if I have offended you in anyway I'm sorry because that was not my intentions.
My posts were from experiences with different rifles I own and have shot.
Of course I've never been in a SHFT situation nor a fire fight.

My thinking is you always want to have enough gun in regards to hunting, Home Defence and if a SHTF were to happen.

The purpose of your quote being posted here is to ask others to read the 2nd. paragraph.

Best Regards ARKANSASHUNTER

[knightRider]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Midas

Between JM and KR there is enough "insanity" for all of us! "If I have enough guns and ammo I can just shoot my way out of it!" Please, gentlemen, this is the stuff of Jr. High daydream fantasies. The lack of walnut, or fine bluing is disturbing, when someone's gun collection resembles a G.I. Joe accessory kit, I have to wonder what their true intentions really are.

the second amendments not about duck hunting.

[Seven©]

this thread delivers

[JMcDonald]

Quote:       Originally Posted by knightRider

the second amendments not about duck hunting.

Ain't that the gyat damn truth.

[Sam Ruger]

Quote:       Originally Posted by JMcDonald

I personally am pretty satisfied with my basic HV round's capability to penetrate 16 guage steel at 50 yards, go through a 2x4 at 100 yards, go through 12" of tightly packed steel wool and 6" of tightly packed dirt before lodging itself half way into a 2x4.

Quote:       Originally Posted by JMcDonald

The “big bore” argument arises from wound damage being proportional to the kinetic energy applied. Thus, if you double the bullet weight you get twice the kinetic energy for twice the wound damage and this is the math “big bore” gun user’s use. But if you double the velocity of a bullet you quadruple its kinetic energy. This is the math 22 user’s use. Modern 22 ammo hits quite hard for its size. On a grain for grain basis, a standard .22 will produce 50% more damage than a .45 caliber 230 grain FHP.

But the .45 still has the wound advantage. You would have to hit a .45 owner at least four times for every once he hit you back in order to have a “fair exchange”. So while you may be impressed with what you can do, the other guy can do the same thing with his round only leave a hole four times bigger. This is why our first rule is always:

”Run like hell!”

Quote:      

Also, about the cover issue. According to www.theboxotruth.com , a .22lr will quite easily go through the same amount of sheelrock walls as most common defensive rounds. Also, something I recently discovered. #1 buckshould would easily go through a car door, correct? Well, each of those pellets weighs 40gr and is .3" in diameter. A 40gr .22lr has almost twice the sectional density of one of those pellets! That means more weight is in a smaller frontal area, so meaning it would be even easier!

Quote:      

The fact that a .22 can shoot through sheet rock or a hollow core door is irrelevant to a combat situation. If you can shoot through them, so can your opponent. And if you’re shooting through cover (walls or whatever) then you’re trying to hit him with body shots. Again, you’ll have to hit him four times for every once he hits you. Assuming equal aim and rate of fire through that door/wall, he will take you out four times more often than you do him.

And you don’t want to be shooting through car doors unless, while waxing the car, the word “Coors” begins to appear underneath the paint. Once you shoot through a car door, the remaining velocity of the bullet is reduced and the tip flattened, resulting in limited penetration in the victim. I wouldn’t want to even shoot through a double pane glass window because, while the bullet will certainly penetrate, its course will almost certainly be deflected. If the other guy is behind cover, revert back to first rule:

”Run like hell!”

Quote:      

BTW, there are rare stories exaggerating the ineffectiveness of EVERY caliber. We've all heard the stories of guys taking 17 and 33 9mm before falling. We've all heard the claims that it takes several .223 to put down a target. We've all heard the story of the woman who survived a .380 point blank because it passed between her brain's lobes and strait out the back with minimal damage. We've all heard the story about the woman who was shot with a .357 who had the round fragment on her forehead and just travel under the skin. Hell, I've even read a confirmed news article about a guy walking to the hospital with an axe stuck in his brain!!!!

Quote:      

We hear these stories because they happen to be true. It’s why you have to shoot twice even in what seems a guaranteed KILL situation.

I took your side because, if you know what you’re doing, you can kill another person with a 22 (Although it’s primarily a survival hunting weapon). But most people don’t know what they’re doing. When the US Army in WWI was confronted by the problem of arming support troops who didn’t know what they were doing (truck drivers, cooks, etc) they handed them .45 autos using the “big bore” theory. But, by WWII, that had changed. They were issuing them the M1 paratrooper carbine (the “more bullets” theory). The M16 shows this thinking hasn’t changed much. But the “big bore” self defense citizens are about 90 years out of date. Modern military thinking on self defense leans more towards the 10/22 than the Colt .45.

But it will never actually reach the .22 because of the problem of cover and the fact that a wounded enemy soldier doesn’t have to be carried to the rear by two comrades but, instead, can walk himself there. It does not meet military requirements and probably never will.

To use a 22 successfully in self defense you must first understand why so many frigging people have been killed by it. Once you understand that, you can set out to deliberately reproduce those conditions. The first step is to read coroner death reports on 22 rounds. They will all say the same thing. The cause of death was the failure of the 22 round to exit the body. It transfers 100% of its kinetic energy to the body, maximizing the wound damage. Next, the victim was not killed by a copper jacketed HP round but by a solid lead target round. HP 22 rounds were introduced in part to keep the bullet from exiting small animals. In people, it already doesn’t exit.

A lead target round mushrooms at 1116 FPS whereas an HP mushrooms at 705 FPS. The easily mushrooming HP round slows down in the body, traveling about 80% as far as a lead target round. The lead target round will also act like a mushrooming bullet, tumbling 180 degrees just beyond the midpoint of the wound, causing the wound cavity diameter to double. At all times, due to the fact that the bullet has insufficient velocity to exit the body, it will travel the path of “least resistance”. It will not travel a straight line. Rather, it will be channeled into the softest body tissue; which is the lungs. From here, it can hit the heart. The farther the bullet travels into the body, the greater the chance of hitting the heart. A 40 grain lead target round has a 25% greater chance of hitting the heart than a 36 grain HP. A target round hitting the left arm has been known to end up in the heart.

At the top of the coroner’s list of 22 deaths is the 22 Short to the head, either by suicide or murder. Again, the round enters the head but does not exit. It will travel through the brain tissue until it reaches the opposite end of the skull and then be deflected back into the brain again for double, or even triple, damage. Death is a virtual certainty. James Brady would have been killed by John Hinckley had he used lead target ammo.

Not on the list of coroner reports are gunshots to the neck. The bullet doesn’t kill by throat shot but it does disable as too many vitals pass through the neck.


So now you know what you’re looking for – a lead target round with velocity of about 1250 FPS which should produce the desired impact velocity for maximum penetration. No need to shoot through walls or car doors. Just put him down the same way a butcher puts down a cow. Go for the head (above the eyes) first or the neck if you want to take him out without him shooting back. Use heart shots if you don’t trust your aim and are willing to accept return fire (And have him around for the next 24 hours.).

A lead round has a higher chance of being deflected by the skull than a copper jacketed one. This is another reason to pull the trigger twice.

You don’t have to take my word on any of this. The Israeli Defense Force conducted a field experiment with the 10/22 Ruger at the IDF Sniper School in Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG) back in 2001. As a result of this test, the JAG classified the Ruger as a lethal weapon.

Quote:      

Etc etc. Counting on your caliber (especially any of the common low- and medium-power calibers) to ALWAYS do what is expected of it is silly. I'd much rather hone my own skill so that I can count on MYSELF to do what I need to do, and in this case that is put a couple of rounds into a forehead before I am taken down myself.

Honing your skills with a .22 is another subject few know anything about. One poster doubted you could mentally put this into practice and I am inclined to agree with him. Taking out an opponent with a .22 requires more discipline than shooting skill. Which brings us to our second rule:

”When in a hurry, take your time.”

Never race your opponent to see if you can get off the first shot. It’s not a quick draw contest. Anyone who practices a fast shot is practicing panic. There are two ways to get your pistol out faster than your opponent, neither of which involves speed. The first is by holster. My personal preference is a spring tension “snap” holster. If your barrel is short (Mine’s not), you would use a “snap down” shoulder holster. If it’s long, like mine, you would use a “snap out” shoulder holster. These holsters are way faster than standard concealed holsters. The second way to speed up your draw is include removing your safety as part of your drawing movement. This requires practice with an empty gun. It has been shown, repeatedly, that an untrained opponent will draw his pistol first and then click off the safety second. Such a shooter is always “one shot behind” an experienced shooter. Getting your pistol out first and having your safety already off gives you more time to take deliberate, unhurried aim (but fire the moment the sights are on. Your first shot opportunity is usually your best.). If your opponent is also drawing, he is guaranteed to be hurried when he sees himself already looking down your barrel aimed at his head. In most cases, his first shot will be rushed and miss.

Next, practice your draw in front of a mirror. As part of your draw you want to turn your body sideways to your opponent to minimize the target area you present (This while clicking the safety off). Don’t worry about speed. Practice precision and perfection. ”When in a hurry, take your time.”


Practicing on a mirror allows you not only to see your mistakes but to practice against another, moving person – An important point because you want to get as used to as real a situation as possible. Practice for about three days in a row to master it and then about 5 minutes a week thereafter to maintain your reflexes. Always do this with an empty gun.

After you’ve mastered the mirror, you can load the weapon and try it out on a silhouette (Have a cell phone on you in case you do stupid.). Draw in the eyes on the target as they are important to your shot placement. Vary your lighting conditions to determine if you develop a low light weakness (Most can be corrected by painting your front sight RED.). You must have confidence in your aim to use a 22.

There are other tricks of the trade but this should be enough to get you started. If you ever have to face a defensive situation, unless he’s got a shotgun, he’ll miss and you won’t.

And he’ll be dead and it won’t matter how big a bore pistol he has.

[tommy]

we drop a 600lb gator with one .22 lr round to the head down here and he don't go no where . to me it's all about shot placement if you can evade the enemy long enough to place the shots you can kill them with a .22 benjemin pellet rifle with shots to the jugular vien in the neck or wind pipe.

[Seven©]

327 posts, and it's finally brought up...

Quote:       Originally Posted by Sam Ruger

kinetic energy

Next up...hydrostatic shock.

There's only two ways to kill.
1. Blood loss
2. Shutting down the CNS

Guess which one works the quickest.

[thrillbilly]

I'd still rather rely on 7.62x54R, .270, or 12G in a "combat" situation. The .22 should only be for food gathering or "suppressive" fire or to arm yourself when nothing else is available. Sniping from a armored, secure position against multiple opponents in the open would also be a situation geared to the .22, mainly to save ammo for the "big" guns. I'm not a advocate of handguns for fightin' much less rimfires. I like the ability to incapacitate, the difference in living or dying doesn't depend on you killing your opponent, it depends on you stopping them, right now!

[Metronome]

The .22 makes an excellent combat round, as long as 'combat' involves shooting at close range from hidden positions on unarmored and unaware individual targets. If you have the Ninja skills, you should be golden. I'll still be packing my rimfires because the most important weapon is the one you carry between your ears.

[knightRider]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Seven©

327 posts, and it's finally brought up... Next up...hydrostatic shock. There's only two ways to kill. 1. Blood loss 2. Shutting down the CNS Guess which one works the quickest.

you makea me-a laugh

[Sam Ruger]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Seven©

327 posts, and it's finally brought up... Next up...hydrostatic shock. There's only two ways to kill. 1. Blood loss 2. Shutting down the CNS Guess which one works the quickest.

This happened this month. It's one shot to the chest, from a 10/22 Ruger with scope and suppressor:

Israeli forces kill Palestinian demonstrator in Ni’lin | International Solidarity Movement Palestine

The Ruger 10/22 with scope and suppressor has a better than 7% kill rate in the hands of an Israeli sniper - And that's when they're "supposed" to aim for the legs.

[knightRider]

not a good sniper if he hit the chest when he was supposed to ...let me use your words < aim at the LEGS>

[Seven©]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Sam Ruger

The Ruger 10/22 with scope and suppressor has a better than 7% kill rate in the hands of an Israeli sniper.

7% kill rate...in the hands of a SNIPER.

Holey moley.

[TexasT]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Seven©

7% kill rate...in the hands of a SNIPER. Holey moley.

Glad I'm not the only one...

[Seven©]

Hmm...

While discussing a handgun ammo in another thread, I ran across this gem in a link to a website neophyte provided.

Quote:      

Summary: the purpose of shooting someone in a self defense situation is to STOP them from harming you. The sooner they stop, the safer everyone will be. So we are seeking a bullet that will punch big holes in the "hydraulics" (circulatory system) to cause a loss of blood pressure to the brain, significantly enough to shut them down. That's where bullet performance becomes important. We need the ability to punch big holes in deep organs.

[Seven©]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TexasT

Quote:       Originally Posted by Seven© 7% kill rate...in the hands of a SNIPER. Holey moley. Glad I'm not the only one...

TT, I'm not a rocket surgeon, but IMO there's lots of other percentages out there greater than 7%. I could be wrong.

And much to your dismay, I'm not a sniper either.
Ergo, I choose calibers that give me a better chance than 7% at optimal conditions.

[Dan22]

I couldn't find the 7% reference but it sounds to me like the Israeli soldiers are firing at people in crowds and maybe 7% were killed.

Seems to me a serious sniper who is trying to kill people would do a lot better than 7%. The CIA thinks a .22 will do the trick and they are not planning on a low ratio of kills.

A Squirrel hunter armed with a .22 pump has a much better kill ratio than that but then again, he is actually trying to kill them.

[Sam Ruger]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Seven©

7% kill rate...in the hands of a SNIPER. Holey moley.

This is why a .22 owner has to make his first rule in a self defense situation:

"Run like Hell!"

And, failing that, aim for the head. Because the % kill rate with head shots takes a sudden, dramatic rise over 7%.

I posted the 7% kill rate to demonstrate that a 22LR
(In this case, at 1050 FPS or less) has sufficient kinetic energy to kill by a single chest shot even if it's a miserable % rate.

I think most of us with half a brain can figure out that a .22 can kill but the only way one can use it for self defense in a meaningful way is to aim for the head as, otherwise, a 7% kill rate is not going to keep you alive.

.22 owners who don't know that and who are practising shooting for the chest are not practising self defense. I thought JMcDonald could use his .22 for self defense if he was aware of this and I think he is now. Otherwise, the vast majority of .22 packers are clueless. But the moment even one of them figures it out, he can kill and kill consistently.

Anyone here think JMcDonald can't kill you now after reading my posts?