[punkndisorderly]

One up side to using a rimfire is the lack of attention that you would draw to yourself. In a SHTF situtation, whatever remains of law enforcement/military would be looking to regain control over the situation. Someone seen with an AK is much more likely to draw unwanted attention than someone with a wood stocked rifle, especially a rimfire (especially in rural areas).

Another, the comparatively quiet report is less likely to draw attention compared to a centerfire.

However, while a .22 has it's uses, a more serious weapon would probably serve you better.

For me, a big bore lever gun probably makes the most sense. Good for defense, good for hunting, less stigma attached.

A good 12 guage would also be a better (cheaper) solution for much the same reason. With the different loads available, you could hunt everything from birds to small game to deer with the same gun, lot's of ammo around if you had to scrounge some, and also good for defense at most ranges where you'd likely be defending yourself.

If you can find one, a marlin camp carbine would also be a good fit.

If you insist on a rimfire, I'd at least bump up to the 22mag or .17 to at least maximize the damage you can do and the range.

[JMcDonald]

Quote:       Originally Posted by billy

well written and a lot of thought went into that post. what i have against the 22 is it's lack of range.

Thank you.

And yeah, for a while I considered a .223 rifle specifically for its greater range over my 9mm carbine (maybe 150 yards for reliable torso shots, vs twice that distance). Then, I started thinking about the above-mentioned advantages of the 9mm carbine over a rifle-caliber weapon, and also thought about how in most cases a threat at over 100 yards is a threat Id probably be able to run from, though still fight against with the 9mm carbine if I had to. THEN, I started thinking about the similarities in range between my 9mm carbine and a .22, while also weighing the same 9mm > .223 advantages in the favor of .22LR > 9mm (noise, ammo size / cost). Finally, I weighed the differences in "stopping power," as well as the differences in would channels between a 9mm FMJ (effectively a .355" hole) and a quality .22LR HP (probably a .34" hole).



BTW, this wouldn't be my only weapon. This is for me when I am out for several days with a small party (from just my GF and I, to perhaps the addition of my roommate and parents). When we made it to my grandpa's house, which is actually only about 45 minutes when driving (or perhaps 4-5 days at a cautious pace on foot), we would then be able to add in his .223 Mini-14 Ranch Rifle, his larger-caliber pistols, and his own 10/22 to our inventory. That means that from a defensive standpoint, we would have a bit more firepower to work with. From there it is unlikely that we'd move as he is very well stocked and has more resources and security than anyone I personally know. However, if we did have to move we would both more easily be able to split up the weapons and ammo so he could carry his Mini-14.

Also, my stepdad has a 12g and has also been eye-balling the Mosin-Nagants so I think he might get one of those, which would only add to our inventory.

[leomort]

JMcDonald, I agree with you. My survival/SHTF weapons would be a .22lr rifle, but a bolt action, and a 9mm pistol for very similar reasoning and logic.

[kaaa]

'' better a hit with a.22 than a miss with a 45''

[nathangdad]

I took your question as serious and responded with the respect due a serious question. I do believe you have a good idea.

I am sorry for your experience with those who did not honor your post.

One learns to bypass them and focus on the quality answers.


Good luck and I still think you have a good idea.

One additional suggestion would be to keep a number of the 10 round Ruger clips as the very long clips can make it difficult when firing from a prone position.

[leomort]

I wouldn't consider taking a 12ga shotgun or any shotgun for a survival situation. The sheer weight of the ammuntion is enough to discredit it as a viable option. Remember more than likely you'll eventually be on foot and have to carry whatever you think is essential to your and your family's survival.

Ultimately it comes down to what your neighbors would be like in this situation. Katrina is good example, the "citizens" that remain in New Orleans turn to looting and other means. In that situation, an AR15 and RAMBO attidue, shoot first-ask questions later could be genuine options. Contrast this to Mobile,AL where the community pulled together and organized themselve until chaos ended. In this case, if you pulled out your AR15 and started shooting people from 200 yards distance (as some implied), they would be on trial for murder.

It seems that many with the AR15's are thinking more with testerone than brains. One can not go around shooting someone from 200 yards and claim self defense. I suppose most don't have a family,wife or kids. If so you have too much collateral damage to run off and play RAMBO. You're not going to do your family any good if you end up DEAD!

[JMcDonald]

Thank you guys for the support. I honestly didn't expect this much acknowledgement, but I suppose my inferences as to how it might all play out with a .22LR rifle are agreeable?

And yeah, I was going to say the same about the 12g. The ammo is huge and heavy, and slugs / buckshot is quite expensive (about 50c / shot for buckshot at minimum, and nearly $1 / shot for slugs). I actually had one and got rid of it for the exact reasons I stated are advantages of 9mm over a rifle. Another big reason would be that after I shot all the ammo I could carry (which would only be about 60 rounds including the magazine - and that is in twice as many pockets as I currently use for ammo storage in my vest), my shoulder would be quite sore, haha. On top of that it will be extremely loud, and possibly even louder than a .223 (basically, they'd both suck, haha). I shot mine out in a field without hearing protection and my ears rang for several minutes and it took at least several seconds for my hearing to come back (which is bad when you are fighting by yourself, haha). A .22LR is more likely those little fireworks you can light and throw.

And yeah, I am sure there are some situations that larger rifles would truely be desireable. On top of the examples you, leomort, mention, there are more I can think of, most of which involve large "battles." Perhaps you have formed a militia and are fortifying your neighborhood and hordes of zombies (or another large enemy militia) start shambling down the street. Everyone already knows you are there (including the enemy), so there is no reason to be worried about attracting more people with your gunfire. You obviously have many men so you aren't concerned about enemies sneaking up behind you, so hearing loss is not paramount. Finally, in defending a stationary position there is no realistic limit to how much ammo you can carry or have sitting next to you (you would likely carry a vest full of mags since you dont have to worry about keeping food and other survival gear with you). In this case, yeah a rifle would be best for things like disabling vehicles (damage transmission / engine), punching through car doors, etc.

However, if I found myself in this situation and had my .22LR, I bet I could still do my part in stopping the enemy. For zombies, only head shots count anyways so I wouldn't be any worse off than the other guys. For some militia or band of pirates, a torso shot with my .22LR HP bullets will be about as damaging as one with current 9mm FMJs, so there isn't much of a difference there.

Basically, I think that as a firearm in general it is adequate for fighting people. However, it also has the previously advantages that make it (IMO) great for surviving outdoors.


Thanks for the heads up about the long mags. I was intending to get a bipod for it so maybe that will help it clear, and was probably going to keep a few stock mags just because they are small and easy to carry, but I never thought about actually not being able to use long mags in some realistic or likely cases (like firing prone).

[leomort]

JMcDonald,

Just a thought for you. In these scenarios, I'd think you run out of gas for your vehicles rather quickly. Therefore I believe it to be highly UNLIKELY that there are going to many vehicles driving around doing drive-by shootings thus unlikely to be a need to penetrate vehicles. If for some reason you come upon the situation, a 9mm pistol or 45 pistol can penetrate windshields good enough.

Weight of ammo is number one criteria. I could easly carry two bricks of rimfire ammo and 200 round of 9mm ammo without compromising the other gear that would be as valuable to my survival. Have your wife have similar arms as well to consolidate ammo&weapons. Even the little ones could carry 100 rounds of rimfire ammo w/o problem.

If you can stay stationary, likely only if people ie neighbors/friend band together, then one's option open up a little. Then .223rem rifles and 12ga shotguns become a viable option as does keeping/having thousands of rounds of ammo. One possible drawback to this is logistics:being able to feed, shelter, water, not to mention sanitation, etc with large number of people. Unlikely to have running water, electricity to provide the creature comforts we take for granted.

[andrew cochran]

I agree with you mostly because you cans stock up a lot of ammo and because of ammo availbility when you have to scavenge. But I would rather have a centerfire on a power basis.

[JMcDonald]

Quote:       Originally Posted by leomort

Just a thought for you. In these scenarios, I'd think you run out of gas for your vehicles rather quickly. Therefore I believe it to be highly UNLIKELY that there are going to many vehicles driving around doing drive-by shootings thus unlikely to be a need to penetrate vehicles. If for some reason you come upon the situation, a 9mm pistol or 45 pistol can penetrate windshields good enough.

That is actually a really good point. I MIGHT MIGHT carry my 9mm pistol on me instead of the .22 (or along with), but even still a .22 can break a window no problem leaving their shoulders and head vulnerable to attack.

I was actually more concerned about people making road blocks with dead cars and using them for cover.

Quote:       Originally Posted by leomort

Weight of ammo is number one criteria. I could easly carry two bricks of rimfire ammo and 200 round of 9mm ammo without compromising the other gear that would be as valuable to my survival. Have your wife have similar arms as well to consolidate ammo&weapons. Even the little ones could carry 100 rounds of rimfire ammo w/o problem.

Exactly. I want to take my mom shooting and she even has asked about getting a gun of her own. A cheap .22 would actually be great for her as anyone can shoot one and recoil is really never a problem.

Quote:       Originally Posted by leomort

If you can stay stationary, likely only if people ie neighbors/friend band together, then one's option open up a little. Then .223rem rifles and 12ga shotguns become a viable option as does keeping/having thousands of rounds of ammo. One possible drawback to this is logistics:being able to feed, shelter, water, not to mention sanitation, etc with large number of people. Unlikely to have running water, electricity to provide the creature comforts we take for granted.

That is the idea of going to my grandpas. He has generators, lots of extra gas, shotguns with lots of ammo, his Mini-14 with like 1000 rounds of ammo, a wind mill for pumping water, his primary house (like 3XXX square feet) has a safe room and a bomb shelter, and his second house on the property is also very sturdy (also like 3300 sq feet), surrounded by 10 acres of woods (for small game and wood supple). We would then have enough weapons, supplies, and manpower (that is the rendezvouz point for most of this side of the family, which would also bring their own guns) to survive much better than most people.

Thanks for the advice everyone!

[leomort]

Andrew cochran,

I agree. I would much prefer a centerfire rifle. Since we don't have bears to worry about, even a .223rem rifle would be adequate. However for many reasons that JMcDonald pointed out, a rimfire rifle and handgun/pistol makes the most sense in a bugout, survival, SHTF scenario. I think many equate survival with those shooting schools such as ThunderRanch and GunSite where they teach you urban defense/LE/military tactics w/ their ARs.

JMcDonald,

That's great regarding you grandpa's place. What if other people stumble upon your place? Are you going to defend with upmost aggressive? What if they want to join your community? Are you really going to turn away a family with kids? How many people can you place support? That was the point I was trying to make.

Yes, you make a good point about people scavenging vehicles to make road blocks. When you encounter something like that, it means there's probably some organization going in that area. Proceed with caution. Did they reach the carrying capacity of their compound? If so they defend aggressively. Or our they just trying to band together and looking for more support? In that case, they might welcome you if you don't play cowboy/Rambo. Just some rambling thoughts?

[andrew cochran]

[quote=leomort;524333]Andrew cochran,

I agree. I would much prefer a centerfire rifle. Since we don't have bears to worry about, even a .223rem rifle would be adequate. However for many reasons that JMcDonald pointed out, a rimfire rifle and handgun/pistol makes the most sense in a bugout, survival, SHTF scenario. I think many equate survival with those shooting schools such as ThunderRanch and GunSite where they teach you urban defense/LE/military tactics w/ their ARs.


Exactly! Even though a centerfire would be nice a rimfire would be better. Because you can stock up on ammo and the such. And thiers less weight. So it's not the best but in a shft scenario you'll be happy for any gun!

I feel a good bolt action repeater would be good. Less parts to go wrong. Instead of a semi-auto.

[leomort]

On another hunting website, I seen another person post a linkage to youtube regarding Katrina about how the local govt and National Guard went confisicate by armed force law abiding citizens firearms without cause and refuse to give receipts for confiscated firearms and even outright destroy some them in front of the owners. Meanwhile the damn national guard, police and city officals of New Orleans did noting against the roving bands of criminals and gangs looting the city. Oh, but they'll disarm the law abiding citizen from protecting themselves. Guess their attitudes is: "if the govt can't protect you, then you're not allowed to protect yourself" is prevalents in our bureacracy!


Perhaps we should keep AR's. Looks like we will have to used them to protect ourself against our own governments illegal and unconstitutional actions. Never thought I'd having to protect myself against our own "good" guys. There was even an interview with one of the National Guards who despite feeling bad for his actions, he would shoot an american citizens. Makes me want to vomit!

[Father Time]

If I had to Grab Em and Go I wouldn't hesitate to take my 10/22 and my 22 Buck Mark. We have bears up here, but I guess that I'd have to take them out with my sheath knife.

[leomort]

Maybe a few warning shoots with some yelling will scare off the bear?

if seriously concerned with black bears, carry a .357mag with good 180gra ammo should handle that problem and still be versatile for other duties.

[billy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by kaaa

'' better a hit with a.22 than a miss with a 45''

better a hit with a .45 than a hit with a .22

[smokey]

In the rimfire class, the 22 magnum is a better choice,it has plenty of punch out to 100 yards.

[JMcDonald]

Now is time to make my case for or against a .22LR sirearm. BTW, just so you know the most likely pistol Id get would be the beretta Neos (I know its huge, heh). The Buckmark is just ugly IMO, the Rugers with the Bull Barrels are ok to me, though its take-down is very difficult compared to the tool-less take-down of the Neos. I don't know if any truely reliable compact .22LR pistols.

That said, Ill compare them:

Ammo: Obviously, the .22LR pistol wins here.

Aim: The .22LR pistol wins here due to the greater amount of practive Id get with it. The advantage of this would be that if I got hurt in one arm, or had to carry something with one arm, Id still be able to use the sidearm and still have reasonable range (say, 20-30 yards). At the same time, if my primary weapon broke Id have much greater accuracy with it than with a simple 9mm pistol, which would better fill the hole the rifle left. I wouldn't expect my accuracy under stress with a 9mm pistol to be more than half of what it is with the .22LR pistol (say, 10yds vs 20yds).

"Get off me!" Power: 9mm pistol wins. If my primary rifle is too unwieldy for the space I am in, or it was knocked from my hands, then I am obviously too close for comfort. In that case, I might want the most "punch" I could get in such a "get the **** off me!" scenario. When pushing the muzzle to someone or something's torso while you hold it back with your other hand, your accuracy at 20 yards does not matter, and the larger caliber even if you'd never shot it before will always have the advantage there.

BTW, I actually don't have very good aim (like, steadily attempting to shoot a target). I always enjoy practicing quick target acquisition and learning to hold a relatively small group in quick firing, but I am not really into shooting bullseyes. Thus, I don't know how much better Id be able to get with the relatively small amount of practice Id get with the 9mm. I mean, I could shoot 500 rounds of decent .22LR ammo for less than it would cost to shoot 100 rounds of WWB. When practicing, I would be mostly focusing on hitting ~6" discs as far away as possible and as fast as possible, than with hitting bullseyes one shot at a time. When shooting like that (emptying the mag at several targets as fast as possible), I worry that I won't have the time to get adequate feedback before I run out of ammo / money for 9mm rounds.

So yeah, the .22LR pistol has far greater advantages for a survival scenario, EXCEPT the ease of taking out large enemies at very close ranges. However, those close ranges are when it all really counts, which is why I wonder if it is worth carrying the extra 30 or 40 9mm rounds and sacrificing accuracy for the little bit of extra power at such close ranges.

Also, I don't know if Id use FMJ or HP rounds in the 9mm. For HD, it would definately be HP rounds. However, for being out in the boonies, I dont know if a HP will penetrate deeply enough into, say, a bear or boar to kill them quickly. FMJ would obviously lose most of its diameter advantages to an HP .22LR, so keep that in mind.

[JMcDonald]

Ok I think Ill just go with the 10/22 and a 9mm pistol. The money I save from an additional .22LR pistol could buy me another ~1200 rounds of cheap 9mm ammo (for a total of about 1600 rounds - plenty to get a lot of practice in). OR, it would be enough to trade my GF up from her Plinkster to a second 10/22. OR, it would be enough to buy the GF another 9mm pistol for her sidearm.

*edit*

And the reason I don't go for a .22Mag rifle is because there are not very many semi-autos that I know of, and the relative few that are around don't seem as reliable and definately not as modifyable as the 10/22.

[andrew cochran]

I would rather have a good .22 mag rifle bolt action than any other shft weapon. Because of aviblity of ammo and how much I could carry. Plus I love .22 mag.