[Half Moon Tune]

JM, thank you for your response. I disagree with your conclusions, but I don't think that they were hastily made. I believe that you have spent a lot of thinking this thing through and I enjoy trading thoughts with you about them.

As far as a 22 penetrating the human skull, under ideal circumstances at close ranges it can be done, but not with a certainty that I would like to count on. I have , in my files, documented cases (several) where a 44 Special at point blank range failed to penetrate (remember the "Son of Sam" murders in New York?) and one case where 9mm hardball failed to penetrate a skull, also at point blank range (1980, Beirut Lebanon, Pan Am Airlines flight hi jacked, terrorist tried to asassinate a passanger). The 9MM is known as a round with good penetration and either round is much more powerful than a 22, and yet both rounds failed AT POINT BLANK RANGE.

Again, I would say that the ability, strengths and weaknesses of the 22 are well documented. Every cartridge has it's strengths and weakness. The 22 is a fine cartridge in its area of ability. I just think that you are asking too much of a cartridge that over the last 150 years has been shown consistantly to not have the ability to do what you require. But again I will say, even with a cartridge as weak as the 22, you would still be ahead of most becasue of your familiarity with your weapon of choice and your continuing practice with it.

Live to Shoot, I am not sure how to respond to your post. Under ideal situations, perhaps you could put every shot in a guy's eyes or nose. I had a friend who could consistantly do the same thing with rocks, but I am not sure that I would trust in rocks or recommend them to others for their defense. Combat is rarely ideal. You should bounce your ideas of combat off one of the returning Iraq veterans and ask what they think of it's viability. I think you might be surprised at the answers.

As far as using a 22 against farm animals, I have already mentioned what I have seen. I think it very unlikely that you could get the bad guys to stand still long enough while you came up beind them and tried for a shot behind the ear. Again, there is no new ground here. This cartridge has been wrung out completely and it's abilities were learned long ago.

JM, you mentioned you had a 9MM carbine. I would recommend using it with Federal's 9mm BP round. I had a Cobrey 9MM that would jam with every shot when using hollowpoints. They Federal BP round was the only round that would consistantly feed reliably. This round uses a 115 grain bullet at 1150 fps out of a pistol. The Philadelphia city police and the New Jersey state police both use this round and are VERY pleased with the results. Even so,at best you are looking at about a 100 yard weapon. Still, you could practice with hardball and use the BP for serious work. If you get into handloading you could bring the cost down even more. Best of luck.

[LiveToShoot]

HMT,

Welcome to G&G, and thanks for your informative reply...

Grew up with a rifle in my hand, and later a pistol...and I've spent years in USAF Security Forces and sent lots of rounds down range.

You give me a quarter size target and a box of shells and I'll cover that target so close that you'll have trouble recording hits.

Yes, the .22 has some limiting factors, and is not ideal for general use, but in a SHTF situation, where someone may not have a silencer, there is a big plus with the .22 to take targets more quietly.

Great caution should be taken to ensure target is taken, and not just aggravated and able to call additional attention to your fire.

[JMcDonald]

Thanks for another good post.

Gives me a lot more to think about!


One question I want to ask is if it would be better to use solid points and have better penetration through obstacles (light walls, car doors, winter clothing), or use HPs for more tissue damage. I have been thinking more about if I just ran up on some homeboy in a t-shirt, in which case penetration would remain adequate with HPs, but with the most tissue damage. But some posts have got me wondering about longer ranges, or actually having to shoot through obstacles. Basically, Id be sacrificing close-range tissue damage for better long-range penetration and better closer-range obstacle penetration.

[Half Moon Tune]

Live to Shoot, thank you for your response and your welcome and thank you for your service to our country. Hopefully, none of us will ever face a SHTF situation. It is much easier to respectfully debate these issues in an academic sense and I hope we never have to live them out, no matter WHAT kind of gun we carry. Guys with big guns die, as well guys with small guns. A bullet is no respector of persons.


JM, I have thought much about your question on hollowpoints. Either choice is a compromise, and in a compromise we sacrafice something, regardless of caliber used (even a pistol is a compromise. If we knew trouble were coming we would be ready with a rifle). Myself, I would have a box of both but would probably use hollow points to give me all the edge I could. As you have so aptly stated, far more important than caliber or the platform it is shot from, is the shot placement. I think that we can all agree on that.


JM, a question for you, why did you remove the wood stock on the 10/22? A folding stock is useful to shorten the length of a rifle, but the 10/22 is already a short rifle. I am kind of partial to the wooden stock becasue if the action became too up close and personal a wooden stock to the face could turn the day. The M16, with it's plastic stock could be knocked out of action with such a strike against a bad guy, but a wooden stock such as is found on the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, or even the 10/22 could do a lot of damage to an enemy. Just my 2 cents.

[LiveToShoot]

Using the stock is a viable concern...

While on sentry duty, as close in on a priority A resource, I had an individual, fellow security forces member, that acted out of character, violated procedure and needed to be neutralized.

He was so close to me, with his hand on my already drawn M-16, that I couldn't bring my M-16 up to shoot...so I dropped him in the face with the butt of my M-16, and then took care of the situation with close-by back up...

...the butt of the M-16 took him down to the ground and out really well, and I didn't have to discharge a round in a very sensitive location.

[JMcDonald]

Ok. Ill stick with the HPs then. You seem to put a good deal of thought into your posts so I very much value your opinion. I also appreciate the patience with which you have approached me and this subject.

I actually put the wood stock back on my rifle. Partially because it feels more solid, and partially because it looks much less scary. I feel much less nervous about someone seeing me shooting at the river with the factory wood stock than with anything resembling an "assault rifle." Just the same, a cop seeing one in the back of my car, or a neighbor seeing me load it into my car will likely be much less suspicious of what basically loks like a hunting or target rifle than, again, anything at all resembling a "combat" rifle. Eventually, however, I might upgrade to a wood thumbhole stock.

Ive thought about the use of the stock as a melee weapon. For that reason I re-did the sling so that it is not around my shoulder when firing. I had it before so it would hand down under my arm, and I could shoulder the weapon without removing the sling. However, that prevents me from quickly turning the rifle around to jab with the butt. So, now I use the sling more normally (over the shoulder / across the back simply for carrying), but take it off when actually wielding the weapon.

Though, I actually saw a thread once where most agreed that modern synethics will be more durable than the same type of wood stock (like, a hogue overmolded stock compared to an OEM wood one).

I have another question. If the SHTF, should I go around with the rifle slung and the pistol out (or, perhaps the rifle slung / in a pack, and the pistol concealed in a holster)? I ask because obviously at ranges below, say, 25 yards, when the stakes are obviously highest, I want the most power possible. A 9mm with 147gr HPs would give me much more than the .22. In an urban environment, in tight woods, or in a vehicle, quarrels at these distances seem very likely, no? Still, if I need something for longer ranges or find myself in the open, unslinging the rifle would only take a few seconds and I could then use that.

Or, should I leave the pistol as only a BUG?

[LiveToShoot]

Blend in the best you can...'cause drawing attention to yourself with a fancy/modified firearm, that looks like a para-military piece, may generate a response you're not wanting to deal with.

...one aspect of tactical deception, in real-world situations, is that you want to be in plain sight but appear to be non-offensive.

In a real world, SHTF situation, my wife and I could approach you and you wouldn't even anticipate a threat...and she is a real threat when she cuts loose, and I never want to be on the receiving end.

[LiveToShoot]

My 10-22 has a Hogue over-molded stock...and it'll work effectively when blunt force is needed...and won't pick up any teeth marks.

[Rex in OTZ]

I'd suggest a .22 mag as opposed to a .22lr coonhunters figured that out a long time ago as it took too many shots to put down a raccon. so if a .22 mag does the job with one shot that a .22lr took multiple shots to do it stands to reason to use the better cartridge.................... unless you just want to wound stuff......... then by all means shoot em in the gutts that's a horrible way to go.

[squirrelblaster]

i like turtles...

[JMcDonald]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Rex in OTZ

I'd suggest a .22 mag as opposed to a .22lr coonhunters figured that out a long time ago as it took too many shots to put down a raccon. so if a .22 mag does the job with one shot that a .22lr took multiple shots to do it stands to reason to use the better cartridge.................... unless you just want to wound stuff......... then by all means shoot em in the gutts that's a horrible way to go.

Though, for the price of a .22mag one might as well go with a small centerfire weapon. A 9mm carbine would probably be a vastly better choice.

[billy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Though, for the price of a .22mag one might as well go with a small centerfire weapon. A 9mm carbine would probably be a vastly better choice.

7.62x39 is even cheaper than 9mm

[JMcDonald]

Quote:       Originally Posted by billy

7.62x39 is even cheaper than 9mm

Ive never seen 7.62 for as cheap as $169 / 1000.

But Ive already discussed all other the reasons Id take the 9mm over the 7.62 .

[sell33]

hmm i still like the 10/22. sure 22 isn't alot of power but for all the reasons you have said JM i think it works for you very well. i love the fact that the 22 has basically zero recoil. i believe this alone makes is much more deadly becuase of the ability to stay on target and/or very quickly fire a small burst of shots. i love my 10/22 and owuld probably reach for it if the shtf. well maybe not lol but only because in this urban environment my 12 gauge woudl do better i believe. but i definitely can see a lot of benefits in a person that is very comfortable and able with a 22 rifle.

not srue how true the movie Shooter is but in that movie hte main character (i forget his name) drops a couple bad guys from close to 200 yds with a 22. lol i know this owuld be nearly impossible with a 22 b/c of bullet drop, wind compensation, etc. but it gives hope for the 22! lol. i would be willing to bet that a 22 at 200 yds would still have enough energy to put someone down wiht a headshot.


it is just a matter of YOUR ability with the weapon YOU choose. no matter what it is. that is the way i see it anyway.

[JMcDonald]

Quote:       Originally Posted by sell33

hmm i still like the 10/22. sure 22 isn't alot of power but for all the reasons you have said JM i think it works for you very well. i love the fact that the 22 has basically zero recoil. i believe this alone makes is much more deadly becuase of the ability to stay on target and/or very quickly fire a small burst of shots. i love my 10/22 and owuld probably reach for it if the shtf. well maybe not lol but only because in this urban environment my 12 gauge woudl do better i believe. but i definitely can see a lot of benefits in a person that is very comfortable and able with a 22 rifle.

Thank you.

Yeah Im getting quite a bit better. I can now hold a torso at about 75 yards as fast as I can pull the trigger. I have been thinking of some portable rigs that will simulate moving targets.

Quote:       Originally Posted by sell33

not srue how true the movie Shooter is but in that movie hte main character (i forget his name) drops a couple bad guys from close to 200 yds with a 22. lol i know this owuld be nearly impossible with a 22 b/c of bullet drop, wind compensation, etc. but it gives hope for the 22! lol. i would be willing to bet that a 22 at 200 yds would still have enough energy to put someone down wiht a headshot.

Yeah, you know I loved that part, haha. With round-nose bullets I have no problem believing that he could have killed them with the head shots he was making. And with a good rifle head shots at 200 yards I think are perfectly believable.

[Redbeernuts]

10/22 All the way.

[Rex in OTZ]

Rossi pump carbine in .22mag

[billy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Ive never seen 7.62 for as cheap as $169 / 1000. But Ive already discussed all other the reasons Id take the 9mm over the 7.62 .

oh ,
thats right.
you dont like rifle caliber rifles.
sorry

[knightRider]

wha hahahahhahahahha

[JMcDonald]

Quote:       Originally Posted by billy

oh , thats right. you dont like rifle caliber rifles. sorry

*sigh*

Its not that I "don't like" them. Its that their advantages aren't as necessary in surviving for your life as they are on the battlefield, and their disadvantages are much more detrimental in a survival situation than on the battlefield. But, I could explain it a thousand times and you still wouldn't understand.

knightrider, are your tens of thousands of dollars in guns not enough to curb your insecurities, or do you have to try to bully people on the interweb, too? I understand high school might have been hard for you, but its time to let go, okay?



LiveToShoot and Half Moon, thanks for the posts!


*edit*

But, Ill take my own advice from my sig and ignore your responses until another adult brings something serious to the table.