Guns you've signed for and sold?

PONTIACDM · 06-04-2008, 12:23 AM

I was in a local gun shop the other day and the ATF called the owner while I was standing there. I heard him give them a customers name and credit card number. When he hung up I politely ask if I could ask what they wanted. He said that a guy bought a pistol off of him five years ago and it was used in a crime. They wanted to know who bought it and all the information like credit card number used and all of that stuff. That made me start thinking. When I was younger I bought and signed for a lot of guns and didn't think much of it to trade it off later if someone had something else I wanted. Also I was laid off back then a couple of times and had to sell a lot of them then also. After the owner telling me that I guess I'm kinda worried about it. I've never been contacted so I guess none have been used in a crime. Also I sold them all legally so I guess I'm alright. Now a days I try to sell to a dealer if I signed for a gun if theres something else I want. I know a lot of you are going to say that you have never sold a gun you have signed for. If I could go back and do it again I would do things differently but I can't. But is there any one on hear that has sold a few? Has anyone ever been contacted because of selling one that ended up in the wrong hands?

troy2000 · 06-04-2008, 12:26 AM

I sold two guns thirty years ago, for gas money to get to an out-of-state job. I've mourned them ever since.

oldjarhead · 06-04-2008, 12:30 AM

I'd bet most of us have done this. I make a copy of the buyers drivers license with a full description of the firearm I sold. Just stick it in my file cabinet and keep it for about five years. It's not a requirement to do such but I like to CMA. I don't think the dealer should have given the credit card number however; can't think of a reason the BATF would need that; especially over a telephone call...who knows who may have been on the other end; was it really BATF?

GlockMeister · 06-04-2008, 12:34 AM

Pontiac, the only thing I can tell you, keep a good thorough record of who bought it, when, description (if it even had and new things put on, dings/dents etc.) and copy as much of the persons info you can, license, gun card, whatever. COVER YOUR BUTT AT ALL TIMES.

Then if you do ever get that/a phone call, you can provide them all the info you have and it makes you look better for not only keeping the info, but for having as much of it as possible. This way, they then go to who you sold it to, then if they sold it, and kept info they go to the next person, if not, it's on them and you're clear..

PONTIACDM · 06-04-2008, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlockMeister

Pontiac, the only thing I can tell you, keep a good thorough record of who bought it, when, description (if it even had and new things put on, dings/dents etc.) and copy as much of the persons info you can, license, gun card, whatever. COVER YOUR BUTT AT ALL TIMES.

Then if you do ever get that/a phone call, you can provide them all the info you have and it makes you look better for not only keeping the info, but for having as much of it as possible. This way, they then go to who you sold it to, then if they sold it, and kept info they go to the next person, if not, it's on them and you're clear..

I will from now on but I'm more worried about the ones I've sold in the past.

GlockMeister · 06-04-2008, 12:54 AM

If they haven't come to bite you in the butt yet, doubt they will. And you legally only have to keep record of such a transaction for so long. So if any do comer back to haunt you, let's just hope they're ones from 10 or more years ago. I think that's how long you have to keep a record for? Well that's what it use to be, haven't a clue anymore, in Illinois anyhow. Don't worry or try not to worry about something you can not control...I know, easier said then done. And I should talk. lol

lefty o · 06-04-2008, 01:02 AM

i'd be more worried about your dealer keeping your credit card info.

wunhunglo · 06-04-2008, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lefty o

i'd be more worried about your dealer keeping your credit card info.

Exactly!!

Irishman · 06-04-2008, 02:35 AM

The idea of a FFL recording let alone maintaining a record of a CC# is very disturbing.

When selling FTF you have a moral and legal responsibility to make sure the person you are selling to may legally own a weapon.

The best way in my opinion to sell is to ship to an out of state buyer and of coarse through the purchaser's FFL. Once the Purchaser's FFL has recieved and logged the gun you are forever off the hook of liability assuming that the gun was legal to start with. From that point the gun should only need to be traced back to it's last known point of sale and not you.

I've been carefull about FTF sales and only to people I know. Concider this though, if you purchase through an FFL and you then sell FTF your buyer may sell FTF and his buyer may sell FTF and the gun may trade a dozen times that way but if it's involved in a crime it will get traced back to you.

Irish

Seabeescotty · 06-04-2008, 06:06 AM

I sold one twenty five years ago, and never got a call, so I guess I'm good. I miss it, though.

TheWall · 06-04-2008, 07:17 AM

I also have sold a revolver about 25 years ago. I sold it to a co-worker that I knew was a good guy. We did just a standard bill of sale.

Dookiebutt · 06-04-2008, 07:39 AM

How would the ATF know to call the dealer? I do not recall the serial number, make or model ever being called in to them during a purchase. The dealer keeps the forms. How does the ATF get them?

TheWanderingMind · 06-04-2008, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dookiebutt

How would the ATF know to call the dealer? I do not recall the serial number, make or model ever being called in to them during a purchase. The dealer keeps the forms. How does the ATF get them?

You ain't being paranoid... That's a helluva good question!

PONTIACDM · 06-04-2008, 08:39 AM

If they have the weapon in hand and have the serial number. I'm sure the manufacturer keeps records of where the firearm was shipped.

LEE3370 · 06-04-2008, 08:42 AM

A handgun is used in a crime.
Check the Make, Model, and serial number.
Call the factory to see which distributor it went to and when.
Call the distributor and see what retailer it went to and when.
Call the retailer and see who it went to and when.
Call (or go see) the end buyer and find out why they don’t have it anymore.

SKS NOOB · 06-04-2008, 08:45 AM

Sold my Ruger P90 because I got married and couldn't bring it with me and one of my SKS's cuz I needed the money.

Pred · 06-04-2008, 08:58 AM

I had a talk to with my local FFL a while back, and he said by law(maybe it's just KY) dealers are supposed to destroy that info after a week or so. They are not supposed to keep it on hand. I don't remember exactly what was said, I just remember having this conversation about it when it came to huge databases filled with my info.

LEE3370 · 06-04-2008, 09:45 AM

By law, the information on the “background check” cannot be kept.
The 4473 forms are kept for ever or until the gun shop closes, then they are turned over to the BATF.

blaster · 06-04-2008, 09:45 AM

0ne of my brothers had a FFl, he sold a mini 14 to a friend of mine, who after a couple of years sold it to someone else. my brother got a call from the ATF who said the rifle was found on a drug smuggling boat. my brother gave the agent the info on who the original buyer was and that he personally knew him and that he also knew he had gone through some tough financial times and had to sell a lot of his personal property. after that, nobody was contacted by ATF (including the original buyer) but the guy on the boat went to prison

knightRider · 06-04-2008, 09:45 AM

thats b/s its a violation of your privacy .

06-04-2008, 12:23 AM	#1
PONTIACDM Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: OHIO Posts: 750	Guns you've signed for and sold? I was in a local gun shop the other day and the ATF called the owner while I was standing there. I heard him give them a customers name and credit card number. When he hung up I politely ask if I could ask what they wanted. He said that a guy bought a pistol off of him five years ago and it was used in a crime. They wanted to know who bought it and all the information like credit card number used and all of that stuff. That made me start thinking. When I was younger I bought and signed for a lot of guns and didn't think much of it to trade it off later if someone had something else I wanted. Also I was laid off back then a couple of times and had to sell a lot of them then also. After the owner telling me that I guess I'm kinda worried about it. I've never been contacted so I guess none have been used in a crime. Also I sold them all legally so I guess I'm alright. Now a days I try to sell to a dealer if I signed for a gun if theres something else I want. I know a lot of you are going to say that you have never sold a gun you have signed for. If I could go back and do it again I would do things differently but I can't. But is there any one on hear that has sold a few? Has anyone ever been contacted because of selling one that ended up in the wrong hands? __________________ I Did Not Hit You!!! I Simply High-Fived Your Face!

06-04-2008, 12:26 AM	#2
troy2000 Resident Armed Liberal Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 10,014 Images: 9	I sold two guns thirty years ago, for gas money to get to an out-of-state job. I've mourned them ever since. __________________ I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said. WF Buckley, Jr

06-04-2008, 12:34 AM	#4
GlockMeister Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 6,252	Pontiac, the only thing I can tell you, keep a good thorough record of who bought it, when, description (if it even had and new things put on, dings/dents etc.) and copy as much of the persons info you can, license, gun card, whatever. COVER YOUR BUTT AT ALL TIMES. Then if you do ever get that/a phone call, you can provide them all the info you have and it makes you look better for not only keeping the info, but for having as much of it as possible. This way, they then go to who you sold it to, then if they sold it, and kept info they go to the next person, if not, it's on them and you're clear.. __________________ I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6!

06-04-2008, 12:54 AM	#6
GlockMeister Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 6,252	If they haven't come to bite you in the butt yet, doubt they will. And you legally only have to keep record of such a transaction for so long. So if any do comer back to haunt you, let's just hope they're ones from 10 or more years ago. I think that's how long you have to keep a record for? Well that's what it use to be, haven't a clue anymore, in Illinois anyhow. Don't worry or try not to worry about something you can not control...I know, easier said then done. And I should talk. lol __________________ I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6!

06-04-2008, 06:06 AM	#10
Seabeescotty The ol' Coot Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Jay, Oklahoma, God's country. Posts: 4,567 Images: 18 Blog Entries: 1	I sold one twenty five years ago, and never got a call, so I guess I'm good. I miss it, though. __________________ Adapt, improvise, overcome.-Gysgt Highway, Heartbreak Ridge

06-04-2008, 12:30 AM	#3
oldjarhead Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Mansfield, MO Posts: 913	I'd bet most of us have done this. I make a copy of the buyers drivers license with a full description of the firearm I sold. Just stick it in my file cabinet and keep it for about five years. It's not a requirement to do such but I like to CMA. I don't think the dealer should have given the credit card number however; can't think of a reason the BATF would need that; especially over a telephone call...who knows who may have been on the other end; was it really BATF?

06-04-2008, 01:02 AM	#7
lefty o Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: mn Posts: 5,103	i'd be more worried about your dealer keeping your credit card info.

06-04-2008, 02:35 AM	#9
Irishman Banned Join Date: May 2008 Location: Parrottsville TN Posts: 82	The idea of a FFL recording let alone maintaining a record of a CC# is very disturbing. When selling FTF you have a moral and legal responsibility to make sure the person you are selling to may legally own a weapon. The best way in my opinion to sell is to ship to an out of state buyer and of coarse through the purchaser's FFL. Once the Purchaser's FFL has recieved and logged the gun you are forever off the hook of liability assuming that the gun was legal to start with. From that point the gun should only need to be traced back to it's last known point of sale and not you. I've been carefull about FTF sales and only to people I know. Concider this though, if you purchase through an FFL and you then sell FTF your buyer may sell FTF and his buyer may sell FTF and the gun may trade a dozen times that way but if it's involved in a crime it will get traced back to you. Irish

06-04-2008, 07:17 AM	#11
TheWall Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 250	I also have sold a revolver about 25 years ago. I sold it to a co-worker that I knew was a good guy. We did just a standard bill of sale. __________________ *You only live once, so make sure you shoot twice.*

06-04-2008, 07:39 AM	#12
Dookiebutt Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: America's North Coast Posts: 1,303	How would the ATF know to call the dealer? I do not recall the serial number, make or model ever being called in to them during a purchase. The dealer keeps the forms. How does the ATF get them?

06-04-2008, 08:39 AM	#14
PONTIACDM Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: OHIO Posts: 750	If they have the weapon in hand and have the serial number. I'm sure the manufacturer keeps records of where the firearm was shipped. __________________ I Did Not Hit You!!! I Simply High-Fived Your Face!

06-04-2008, 08:42 AM	#15
LEE3370 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southern Indiana Perry County Posts: 402	A handgun is used in a crime. Check the Make, Model, and serial number. Call the factory to see which distributor it went to and when. Call the distributor and see what retailer it went to and when. Call the retailer and see who it went to and when. Call (or go see) the end buyer and find out why they don’t have it anymore. __________________ GOD, COUNTRY, AND FLAG

06-04-2008, 08:45 AM	#16
SKS NOOB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Minnesotah Posts: 689	Sold my Ruger P90 because I got married and couldn't bring it with me and one of my SKS's cuz I needed the money.

06-04-2008, 08:58 AM	#17
Pred Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,873 Blog Entries: 3	I had a talk to with my local FFL a while back, and he said by law(maybe it's just KY) dealers are supposed to destroy that info after a week or so. They are not supposed to keep it on hand. I don't remember exactly what was said, I just remember having this conversation about it when it came to huge databases filled with my info.

06-04-2008, 09:45 AM	#18
LEE3370 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southern Indiana Perry County Posts: 402	By law, the information on the “background check” cannot be kept. The 4473 forms are kept for ever or until the gun shop closes, then they are turned over to the BATF. __________________ GOD, COUNTRY, AND FLAG

06-04-2008, 09:45 AM	#19
blaster Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: big pine key, florida Posts: 545	0ne of my brothers had a FFl, he sold a mini 14 to a friend of mine, who after a couple of years sold it to someone else. my brother got a call from the ATF who said the rifle was found on a drug smuggling boat. my brother gave the agent the info on who the original buyer was and that he personally knew him and that he also knew he had gone through some tough financial times and had to sell a lot of his personal property. after that, nobody was contacted by ATF (including the original buyer) but the guy on the boat went to prison __________________ peace through superior firepower

06-04-2008, 09:45 AM	#20
knightRider Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: you know where Posts: 2,793 Images: 19 Blog Entries: 11	thats b/s its a violation of your privacy . __________________ I'm part kalishnakov, part heckler and Koch.