Chuck Hawk's "All-Around Rifle Cartridges" and their EUROPEAN EQUIVALENTS
I am from Germany and became interested in (hunting) cartridges some time ago. First question that came to my mind: "What are the most popular rifle cartridges in the world?" Doing some research I found this: ALL-AROUND RIFLE CARTRIDGES. Now reading about those metric cartridges (European Metric Rifle Cartridges), my second question was: "What are the European equivalents of those 4 American cartridges (.270 Winchester, 7mm Remington Magnum, .308 Winchester and .30-06 Springfield) that Chuck had picked out?" Do all of those equivalents exist and can they be found in that article? Well it is mentioned that 6.5x68 S and 7x64 are similar in performance to the .270 Winchester but what about the others?
Well I hope you guys can help me broadening my knowledge and that my English is fine.
Welcome aboard...
The .308 is 7.62 X 51 (or 7.62 Nato)...The 30/06 is 7.62 X 63 in european designaion. The 7 X 61 Sharpe and Hart is comparabe to the 7 mm Mag! The .270 is similar to the 7mm Mauser cartridge.
Rich
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I am from Germany and became interested in (hunting) cartridges some time ago. First question that came to my mind: "What are the most popular rifle cartridges in the world?" Doing some research I found this: ALL-AROUND RIFLE CARTRIDGES. Now reading about those metric cartridges (European Metric Rifle Cartridges), my second question was: "What are the European equivalents of those 4 American cartridges (.270 Winchester, 7mm Remington Magnum, .308 Winchester and .30-06 Springfield) that Chuck had picked out?" Do all of those equivalents exist and can they be found in that article? Well it is mentioned that 6.5x68 S and 7x64 are similar in performance to the .270 Winchester but what about the others?
Well I hope you guys can help me broadening my knowledge and that my English is fine.
Our .308 and 30/06 rounds are quite similar and for most hunting puposes there is little difference in their effectiveness. The .308 was actually designed to take the place of the '06 as our service cartridge some 55 or so years ago. They both remain two of our most popular CXP2 and CXP3 game calibers. Our 30/06 was designed to conteract your superior(at that time) 8x57 round which, of course, is hugely popular still, in Europe. Most American shooters and hunters don't even consider the 8x57JS as a viable CXP2/3 caliber, as they know little to nothing about it. What they have seen are the ridiculously anemic ballistics our major manufacturers load the 8mm to. It is loaded about on a par with our popular 30/30 ballistics (but with pointed bullets of course) as a safeguard to an idiot shooter trying to fire the newer .323 bullets in an OLD .318 bore rifle. Of course the European companies take full advantage of the capabilities of the 8x57 and when this is known, it shows anyone who cares to learn that the fine old warrior 8x57 is every bit as effective as our ever popular .308 and 30/06 rounds while, of course, being of slightly bigger diameter. I've got two 8mm Mausers, one a sporterized M98 and the other an American Remington model 700 and use it/them interchangeably with any of my other big game calibers. I must admit, most American hunters never do appreciate your very fine 8x57, and it nothing short of a shame. Welcome to the site and I hope to learn more about your hunting culture and popular calibers, if you'd care to share. I spent over 6yrs living in Germany during my military career....loved it. Ed
I find that beside bore diameter, cartridge case volume to be the common denominator to determine how close cartridges are to each other. There is a good list of case capacities here:
Using this, I would suggest the following matches:
.270 Winchester - Probably closest is the 7x64 Brenneke. The bullet is slightly larger, but case volume is about 68 grains -- the same as the 270. The cartridge also very close to the .280 Remington. 7x64 | Norma Precision - ammunition
7mm Remington Magnum - Not sure there is a good match. The 7x64 above seems to be about the most powerful metric cartridge. The 68 grain capacity falls quite a bit short of the 84 grains in the 7mmRM.
.308 Winchester - The 7.62 NATO is nearly identical to the .308 with 54 to 56 grains capacity.
.30-06 Springfield - Probably closest is the 7.62 Russian. It has 64 grains so will come a little short of the 30-06 69 grain capacity for performance. Also as a rimmed cartridge it appears to be limited to 55,000 psi or so. 7.62x54mmR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The 30-06 is quite a bit more powerful than the .308 due to the 13 grain capacity advantage it has.
The 30/06 is NOT "quite a bit" more powerful than the .308, period! The .308 is very close to '06 performance in both 150 and 180gr loadings. The facts are thus: Rem and Fed 150gr loadings for the .308 both have the same claimed velocity @2820FPS and the '06 150gr loadings from both Rem and Fed claimed by both to be 2910FPS, that's less than a 100FPS difference! Now how about we look at those bigger bullets the '06 is so much better at firing. Rem and Fed loadings for .308 180gr loadings are claimed to be: 2620FPS and the "quite a bit" more powerful '06 Rem and Fed loadings....(drum roll, please!) 2700FPS. That's less than the difference between the 150 gr loadings! And, by golly the LM loading for the .308 in 150gr comes in at 3000FPS, even faster than the typical '06 loading. Here's the truth, the .308 was DESIGNED to give '06 performance from a shorter, more efficient case. And it is so close to doing so, that no game animal shot with any loading up to and including the largest popular loading for both, 180gr., would ever know which sent him/her to the great hereafter, period. One more little piece of info, the MPBR of the .308 typical 180gr loading vs the '06 180gr loading, another drum roll, perhaps?? Well, it's 259yds for the .308 and 263yds for the '06. That particular tidbit gleened from the very useful charts "Expanded Rifle Trajectory Tables" found at chuckhawks.com. Thanks for allowing me to maybe assist in putting this very annoying myth to SLEEP!
** All ballistics info stated here is taken directly from the information listed in the 99th edition of the trusted "Shooter's Bible" and is found on pages 475-479.
***How's this for one more "mythbuster".... the MPBR of the typical '06 150gr loading is 287yds while the "ultra flat" 100gr .243 is......283yds!!! Wow, ain't that sumpthin' sumpthin'!! (the slug .308's is only 275yds)
If the 308 capacity of 56 grains and the 30-06 capacity of 69 grains (+13 grains or 23%) is a meaningless increase, that would seem quite surprising. Does the .30 caliber bullet not need extra capacity in the case? If that were the case, then it would seem to follow that the .300WM's capacity of 89 grains (20 grains or 29% more) would be even more meaningless if extra case capacity is not needed. We could go on, but I'm with the drag racing guys "there's no replacement for displacement".
Sorry to rain on the 308 parade, but the numbers don't add up, unless there is pixie dust in the .308 cases in addition to powder. Even the 62,000 SAAMI for the .308 compared to the 60,000 for the 30-06 does not account for 23%. And I think we all know that if a 308 is good for 62,000, so is the 30-06 in a modern bolt action.
Would you also say it's pixie dust that allows the .300WSM to match the .300WM in factory loadings while also having a smaller case? I tend to believe it's simply more efficient case design along with more efficient powders invented for them. Look at the new .308 ME vs the .308 and just how close that new caliber comes to .308 performance while keeping preassures almost 15,000 less. Truly remarkable, but I suppose technology that allows us to make multiple trips to outer space in the same vehicle, might be able to allow us to outdo a cartridge invented when horses were still the mode of transportation here! Again, simply Ed's opinion.
H3R3T1K, Welcome.
If it's available there, get a copy of Barnes', 'Cartridges of the World'. It has a ton of information. I've worn out 2 copies so far. It even compares the old German and English African Rounds.
By the way, I'm from Texas. Many folks say that I nearly speak English.
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Aim real good we're nearly out of ammo.
Would you also say it's pixie dust that allows the .300WSM to match the .300WM in factory loadings while also having a smaller case? I tend to believe it's simply more efficient case design along with more efficient powders invented for them. Look at the new .308 ME vs the .308 and just how close that new caliber comes to .308 performance while keeping preassures almost 15,000 less. Truly remarkable, but I suppose technology that allows us to make multiple trips to outer space in the same vehicle, might be able to allow us to outdo a cartridge invented when horses were still the mode of transportation here! Again, simply Ed's opinion.
And then there is the distinct possibility of market spin... These cartridges are using a whole range of excellent powders with many choices in every cartridge for every bullet weight. Sorry, I believe in physics, and "there is no free lunch".
first of all thank you for welcoming me so friendly!
well there are 2 things that bother me about chucks choice: i looked up the specs of the .270 win and the 7mm rem mag and i learned that both their bullet diameter and case length are almost the same. Nearly identical to the 7x64 brenneke... do those 2 cartridges differ that much in performance? could both be "replaced" by the 7x64? (dont get me wrong, still looking for the euro equivalents ) the other thing is the '06 and the .308. i read what you guys wrote about both cartridges actually playing the same role. what could they be replaced with: 7x57 or 8x57?
considering you dont come up against too large, dangerous game, you got one all around hunting cartridge like .308 or 7x57 and a magnum cartridge with the same bullet diameter for better range/power. and that is it? what it comes down to?
And then there is the distinct possibility of market spin... These cartridges are using a whole range of excellent powders with many choices in every cartridge for every bullet weight. Sorry, I believe in physics, and "there is no free lunch".
There is no such thing as market spin!Just because the new .223wssm was posted about 200fps faster than it actually traveled and the .325mag is a # that never was and .12ga slugs are pinpoint accurate at 200yds is no sign of market spin!It could have been right. sam.
first of all thank you for welcoming me so friendly!
well there are 2 things that bother me about chucks choice: i looked up the specs of the .270 win and the 7mm rem mag and i learned that both their bullet diameter and case length are almost the same. Nearly identical to the 7x64 brenneke... do those 2 cartridges differ that much in performance? could both be "replaced" by the 7x64? (dont get me wrong, still looking for the euro equivalents ) the other thing is the '06 and the .308. i read what you guys wrote about both cartridges actually playing the same role. what could they be replaced with: 7x57 or 8x57?
considering you dont come up against too large, dangerous game, you got one all around hunting cartridge like .308 or 7x57 and a magnum cartridge with the same bullet diameter for better range/power. and that is it? what it comes down to?
I'd say you are pretty much spot on with your opinions. The .270 is a bit less powerful than the 7RM, but not enough that it would be hugely noticeable on any game up to and including elk, with both rifles using similar bullets: let's say 150gr partition in the .270 and 160gr in the "7". We also have the advent here of new Light Magnum loadings which give the .270 even more punch(but that's another discussion) Your obsevation of the 7x64 being a 1st cousin to both is quite apt, in my opinion. I'd say the 8x57, loaded to European specs is also a virtual twin to the .308 and '06, ballistically speaking. Using bullets from 150-200gr in any of the three should bring almost identical results. Many of our hunters here, again, are not aware just how good a round that 8mm Mauser truly is. And, maybe most of all, many have a definate aversion to anything over .30 cal. I'll send you a PM with a link that might help you see the similarities between the 8x57, .308, and 30/06. The 7x57 is also a favorite of mine, but I think it's popularity has been eclipsed here, by the somewhat superior performance of the .270, .280, and 7RM and it's also been duplicated in short action form by our fairly popular 7mm08, which is a virtual twin to the 7x57, but in a .308 length cartridge(it's simply a .308 necked down to 7mm).
first of all thank you for welcoming me so friendly!
well there are 2 things that bother me about chucks choice: i looked up the specs of the .270 win and the 7mm rem mag and i learned that both their bullet diameter and case length are almost the same. Nearly identical to the 7x64 brenneke... do those 2 cartridges differ that much in performance? could both be "replaced" by the 7x64? (dont get me wrong, still looking for the euro equivalents ) the other thing is the '06 and the .308. i read what you guys wrote about both cartridges actually playing the same role. what could they be replaced with: 7x57 or 8x57?
considering you dont come up against too large, dangerous game, you got one all around hunting cartridge like .308 or 7x57 and a magnum cartridge with the same bullet diameter for better range/power. and that is it? what it comes down to?
No the .270 Win and 7mmRM are not really comparable. Just check the case capacities link I gave you. Also there is this link which gives detailed case sizes. You will see that the rim size and overall case diameter is larger on the 7mmRM. You will find the metric case sizes near the bottom.
The 7x64 is very comparable to the 270, but not the 7mmRM. Whether you really need as much power as the 7mmRM or not, is a whole different question. I think the 7x64 would be quite suitable for deer, elk & moose.
The 8x57 at 62 grains has less powder capacity than the 7x64, so will be less powerful if anything. The other interesting European cartridge is the 6.5x55 Mauser. It is also very good and certainly suitable for deer, elk, and closer ranged moose. It has a bit more powder capacity than the .308.
Chuck Hawk's "All-Around Rifle Cartridges" and their EUROPEAN EQUIVALENTS 
) the other thing is the '06 and the .308. i read what you guys wrote about both cartridges actually playing the same role. what could they be replaced with: 7x57 or 8x57?
