[leomort]

knight rider,

In you first picture of firearms, what are those rifles in the picture below the red couch? Are those .22lr?

[Mike Franklin]

As I've explained before, if you and a buddy are going into bear country you only need a .22 pistol. If a bear gets aggressive, shoot your buddy in the leg and run.

[JMcDonald]

Quote:       Originally Posted by squirrelbaster

you thought your 10/22 was a combat weapon...

I never said anything that equated to "the 10/22 is a combat weaon." The closest I ever came was something like "a well-trained man could use a 10/22 in combat with reasonable success."

Quote:       Originally Posted by knightRider

btw i shoot more then you ever will.

That is great for you. Nobody asked how much you shoot or many any assumptions on how much you shoot.

But, I don't have tens of thousands of dollars to spend on guns and ammo or I wouldnt be sitting here debating this point.

Quote:       Originally Posted by ArkansasHunter

Mr McDonald I can agree with a lot you have said and I dis like all the jeers that are takeing place. I personaly would be confident with a centerfire rifle and I do understand all you've posted here. It's very apparent your confident and have became very profisiant with a 22 rim fire and thats good . I do not have a problem with it and I wish others wouldn't take you to task. Really true gentleman would'nt do whats going on here. You've expressed your point's very well and so have others. So the way I look at it now is whats good for you might not be for others and vice a versa. Lets all be friends and move on Please...A.H

THANK YOU. It is disappointing at how few mature and respectable members we have here as are you and I.

Quote:       Originally Posted by wunhunglo

Yes, I used to practise a lot. I was very lucky in that Lizzie (Her Majesty to some) paid for a lot of my training. With my current job, I can't practise as much as I used to or would like. I usually go to the Pistol range (50m) every Sunday and the 600m range about once per week, when I'm at home. When practising I never see the point in taking an opened box of ammo home, so I reckon on average, I would shoot, 100 x .22 and 50 x.38/357 for the Pistol range and 50-80 rounds at the rifle range. I reload for rifle & full bore pistol but not purely on cost. I am also lucky in that I have a reasonably salary, no debts, don't smoke & drink very little, so have a fair bit of disposable income to play with. Your other question is a bit of a moot point; a skilled CAS or Practical shooter would not turn up with just a 10/22! But you are correct, their is no substitute for experience (as your girlfriend will tell you)!

Thank you also. I bolded a few points to talk about. First, I made a point in Mike's thread about combat experience that nobody who has been in the military and thus had more tactical training with high-quality weapons than most any civilian. Thus, they don't need to worry about starting from scratch and training up to a decent level of profiency, which would cost quite a bit of money for a civilian in both weapons, ammo, time, and training facilities / instruction. Because of this, it is okay for them to only dust off their AR once every month or two, knowing they will have years of prior training to fall back on should they ever have to use that weapon in a dangerous situation.

BTW, I do realize that any CAS would have plenty of better weapon choices, but lets just say hypothetically... you'd still choose the CAS, right?

Quote:       Originally Posted by cold queso

All that nice hardware KinghtRider, and a little Mini-Me with a .22 squirrel assault rifle in an ugly jeep wanna-be is gonna take you out because he practices scenarios. In a real situation he'd probably wet himself.

Since when did I say anything about me vs KnightRider? First of all, he apparently shoots more than I ever would. Because of that, he would probably defeat me in most situations regardless of which weapon he chose from his arsenal. I have had to repeat over and over that I am comparing my current choice with ONLY my other options and with other civilians. You all keep trying to compare me to the extremely rare individuals with thousands and thousands of dollars in weaponry, and soldiers. I keep saying things like "FOR ME, this is better than if I had an expensive gun that I could only practice with maybe once a month if not less, and not very quality practice at that." And you guys keep comparing me to soldiers and LEOs who basically make a living training and fighting with their government-issued weapons. I keep saying things like "I will have had more quality training than 95% of civilians." And you keep saying things like "what a newb, any soldier with a FAL is going to destroy you." Though, I am sure the people I am trying to explain this to either won't understand the point I am making, or will again choose to remain ignorant of it, so I wonder why I bother.

But, this hasn't been going anywhere for a while so Ill leave it at this. I appreciate and respect those who treated me with the same respect as Ive given out. To the rest of you... *shrug.*

[TexasT]

FINALLY! LET IT DIEEEEEEE! JMcDonald, if you want to use a .22 for supreme shtfness, that's fine. For the average gun owner that doesn't get to practice 10 hours a week, they probably should go for something bigger that will ensure a kill of a bear, etc for their safety. You make it seem like a .22 is all anybody will ever need, and that's not true.

[SwedeSteve]

JmMcdonald- I would appreciate if you cleared this thread !! You started out with info to digest and debate, and have turned into the thing we hate the most here at G&G. I'LL GO DOWN WITH THE SHIP !! Please PM me if you would like to carry on the discussion. I have fired more 22LR in various weapons than you could catalog. I would enjoy a vivid discussion on your thoughts. I am open to discussion based on logic, not emotion or what "Daddy" said. I think you have valid points, but present them in a fatal manner.

[big shrek]

The .22 has it's place in SHTF, it is as a light & quiet hunting weapon that can occasionally take down a human with proper shot placement...but I'd not want to stick with one exclusively...but it IS a Good Starting Point.

[knightRider]

Quote:       Originally Posted by leomort

knight rider, In you first picture of firearms, what are those rifles in the picture below the red couch? Are those .22lr?

yes is a 10-22 , i have a silencer and its a fun range toy . the 10-22 is outfitted in a Christies and Christies stock , with a valqurtzan <-----spelled wrong > trigger job and bull barrel .

[TexasT]

Quote:       Originally Posted by knightRider

yes is a 10-22 , i have a silencer and its a fun range toy . the 10-22 is outfitted in a Christies and Christies stock , with a valqurtzan <-----spelled wrong > trigger job and bull barrel .

Where can I get one of those gun trees like you have? Can I grow it in a pot or does it have to be in the ground?

[knightRider]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TexasT

Where can I get one of those gun trees like you have? Can I grow it in a pot or does it have to be in the ground?

only sweet Georgia red clay will allow the money tree's to flower !

[JMcDonald]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TexasT

FINALLY! LET IT DIEEEEEEE! JMcDonald, if you want to use a .22 for supreme shtfness, that's fine. For the average gun owner that doesn't get to practice 10 hours a week, they probably should go for something bigger that will ensure a kill of a bear, etc for their safety.

You are exactly right. The 10/22 gives me a special advantage in that I allows me to practice much much more than with any other weapon. If using a lesser caliber does not increase the amount and quality of practice, then the other lesser advantages (stealth and ammo capacity) might not be enough to sway you. For me, my living situation allows me to ust get away with firing powderless rounds out of a 10/22, but not anything bigger. Furthermore, I don't have the money to get quality practice with a larger-caliber weapon.

Quote:       Originally Posted by TexasT

You make it seem like a .22 is all anybody will ever need, and that's not true.

I can see how I might have come across like that, but that is not what I meant. The above reason, along with other ones Ive mentioned are why I feel it is the best option for me.

Quote:       Originally Posted by SwedeSteve

JmMcdonald- I would appreciate if you cleared this thread !! You started out with info to digest and debate, and have turned into the thing we hate the most here at G&G. I'LL GO DOWN WITH THE SHIP !! Please PM me if you would like to carry on the discussion. I have fired more 22LR in various weapons than you could catalog. I would enjoy a vivid discussion on your thoughts. I am open to discussion based on logic, not emotion or what "Daddy" said. I think you have valid points, but present them in a fatal manner.

I can understand that. You'll have a PM in a few.

[Tuckahoe]

Quote:      

While I believe that the 22LR is probably the best solution for a gamegetting survival round, I think you are undergunned in a defensive scenario. If you are doing it right, then you won't have to defend yourself at all. What if you are spotted by "troops" at 250m? What if you get cornered or boxed in? These are situations we hope we will not find ourselves in, but know are an a issue that needs to be considered.

The above statement is so true.

[Seven©]

Supremely viable SR-22



I wonder if JMc has seen the new SR?

[Seven©]

Ooops. Link> Ruger 10/22®*Autoloading*Rifles

[Doc Jones]

The odd thing about this thread (other than that I actually I read the whole thing) is the oft-expressed contention that a .22 is vastly superior because one can practice a lot.

Now, I'm a new guy that know's nuttin', but wouldn't it stand to reason that the vast majority of shooting, aiming, commando rolling, "sniping and running" and other skills practiced with a .22 could be directly transferred to a .308 or AK-47 or whatnot?

S&W just came out with a M&P .22 semi automatic specifically as a training tool for agencies and armies using AK-47s right? So they could use cheap ammo to obtain the same skills that could then be transferred directly to a weapon with vastly more fire power.

I certainly agree that a .22 could kill about anything with a great shot under ideal circumstances and would be a great tool for hunting and even for light duty personal defense situations. I agree that it would be a great way to develop skills.

But, seriously, a .22 against a large centerfire weapon or handgun is going to be out-gunned all other things being equal (training, skill, luck).

Seems to me the thing to do is to have a .22 absolutely for all the things it's great at and have something with much more punch (ie not 9mm) for the things .22s stink at.

Just my thoughts fwiw.

Doc

[tommy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Doc Jones

The odd thing about this thread (other than that I actually I read the whole thing) is the oft-expressed contention that a .22 is vastly superior because one can practice a lot. Now, I'm a new guy that know's nuttin', but wouldn't it stand to reason that the vast majority of shooting, aiming, commando rolling, "sniping and running" and other skills practiced with a .22 could be directly transferred to a .308 or AK-47 or whatnot? S&W just came out with a M&P .22 semi automatic specifically as a training tool for agencies and armies using AK-47s right? So they could use cheap ammo to obtain the same skills that could then be transferred directly to a weapon with vastly more fire power. I certainly agree that a .22 could kill about anything with a great shot under ideal circumstances and would be a great tool for hunting and even for light duty personal defense situations. I agree that it would be a great way to develop skills. But, seriously, a .22 against a large centerfire weapon or handgun is going to be out-gunned all other things being equal (training, skill, luck). Seems to me the thing to do is to have a .22 absolutely for all the things it's great at and have something with much more punch (ie not 9mm) for the things .22s stink at. Just my thoughts fwiw. Doc

you can practice all you want but .22 is alot diferent than a higher caliber because of recoil.now you can practice manuevers and getting around with the gun but when it comes to shooting there is no way to compare the training other than if you think you can train all day with a .22 and pop off 10 rounds into a target and hit the bullseye with all ten rounds in a few seconds then tripple that time because another gun with alot more recoil is gonna be harder to get back on target than the .22 will. same goes for the rifles a .22 is just that and the rounds will travel and hit at diferent spots but a 308 will fly alot diferent.the only guns i think that you could practice with would be the ar's because of their low recoil but handguns and bolt action rifles won't do you any good to practice with a .22 caliber gun and then when it comes down to the nitty gritty you think your gonna be just as good with a high caliber gun .i think it would be best to practice with the gun you intend to use unless your just plinkin.

[thrillbilly]

Thanks a lot Seven...you've started it anew! boo hiss boo!

[White Rook]

THE "Supremely Viable" 10/22.... "A THREAD THAT WILL LIVE INFAMY".

[Doc Jones]

Quote:       Originally Posted by tommy

you can practice all you want but .22 is alot diferent than a higher caliber because of recoil.now you can practice manuevers and getting around with the gun but when it comes to shooting there is no way to compare the training other than if you think you can train all day with a .22 and pop off 10 rounds into a target and hit the bullseye with all ten rounds in a few seconds then tripple that time because another gun with alot more recoil is gonna be harder to get back on target than the .22 will. same goes for the rifles a .22 is just that and the rounds will travel and hit at diferent spots but a 308 will fly alot diferent.the only guns i think that you could practice with would be the ar's because of their low recoil but handguns and bolt action rifles won't do you any good to practice with a .22 caliber gun and then when it comes down to the nitty gritty you think your gonna be just as good with a high caliber gun .i think it would be best to practice with the gun you intend to use unless your just plinkin.

Well that makes a lot of sense.

The S&W folks were specifically doing an AR platform .22 to train guys using regular AR-15s. I suppose a lot of the "training" would be manuevers and fighting protocols as well as managing the gun itself with regards to cleaning, loading and fiddling with all the mechanical hooha.

Thanks for the perspective of your experience. Guess I'll have to shell out the money to practice shooting my bigger rifle more after all.

I bought three boxes of .45 Colt for my new lever action Winchester the other day and had a pretty bad case of sticker shock at $50ish a box.

I was hoping the brick of .22 I bought for $28 would do the trick for markmanship practice and I could get off cheap. LOL

Time to get a reloader I guess.

Doc

[tommy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Doc Jones

Well that makes a lot of sense. The S&W folks were specifically doing an AR platform .22 to train guys using regular AR-15s. I suppose a lot of the "training" would be manuevers and fighting protocols as well as managing the gun itself with regards to cleaning, loading and fiddling with all the mechanical hooha. Thanks for the perspective of your experience. Guess I'll have to shell out the money to practice shooting my bigger rifle more after all. I bought three boxes of .45 Colt for my new lever action Winchester the other day and had a pretty bad case of sticker shock at $50ish a box. I was hoping the brick of .22 I bought for $28 would do the trick for markmanship practice and I could get off cheap. LOL Time to get a reloader I guess. Doc

yea them .45 rounds ain't cheap down here they goin for i think 31.00 a box and that for the wwb of 100 rounds. but hey it's better to spend the money and fire the gun than to practice with another gun and find out that all that practice wasn't worth it cause you now ain't to good with the gun you need to have das why i say shoot the gun you plan on useing and get used to it's recoil after you pass a few hundred rounds through it you'll be a pro with it save them .22's for plinkin unless your shooting with a ar15 platform . thats just like them ak's with a .22 caliber why practice with that gun ?? your gonna sit there and fire thousands of rounds through it and when you switch over to a 7.62 round you'll find out that the .22 was alot more acurate and you can't hit the side of a wall with the 7.62 . you wouldn't practice for driving for driving an 18 wheeler big rig with a vw now would you? they must be price gouging really bad if your paying 28.00 for a brick of .22s down here they goin for 14.99 for 550 rounds of federal.

[CrazyIvan]

Quote:       Originally Posted by JMcDonald

I was looking for people to give me real data to contradict everything Ive said. As I expected, nobody has provided any, other than they wouldn't personally feel comfortable with it. And, as expected, no opposition has even acknowledged all the listed advantages of the .22lr. It has all been "you should use something bigger." Hell, no opposition has even acknowledged the similarity in the wound that would be caused by a 9mm FMJ and a good .22lrHP. In fact, half of the statements putting down the .22lr have been completely contradictory and have just shown that people simply don't like the .22lr round as a weapon, even though they don't understand, or are actually choosing to ignore, the facts they are stepping over. So yeah, as expected, nobody could prove my otherwise. Call me arrogant, but as I explained to Mike, I go by more than "what I heard, what saw in a movie, or some guy on the internet doesn't like the .22lr." Listen, Im really not stupid. In reading my posts noone should believe that (maybe naive, but Im not ceding to that either). But, my point is is that I know the .22lr is not a powerful round by any means. It is only comparable to a .32acp in damage. However, it is damaging enough to at LEAST deter an attacker from 25-150 yards, which is what the primary goal is. BTW, I am really curious. This is especially directed to mike,

If you live in the country, great. A .22lr is a perfect weapon to support yourself and your family. It is good for hunting. It may not be the best hunting rifle, but it will do what needs to be done in time of need.

I am guessing that if SHTF, you would probably stay at your home and run defense.

So, at the least, I would invest in a rifle that you can use to pick off enemies at longer range. The slightest wind can knock a .22lr off of it's trajectory. I would say a rifle that is pretty lethal at up to 300 yards is needed. Do you want to wait until someone who wants to loot your house, and do who knows what to your family is within 100 yards? I don't. Another thing is that even the lightest body armor can stop a .22lr. From light gauge steel to heavy layered leather.

For me, I live in the city, and I need a rifle that I can count on in a SHTF scenario, to get out of the city. This means I may be defending myself against aggressors both on foot and in vehicles. So, my M4 is a better choice for me. It has high mobility, is high-powered and can penetrate vehicle doors and windows.

Also, when a SHTF scenario may happen, I don't care how much the ammo costs now. I thought your arguments about the ammo prices were kind of goofy, as in a SHTF scenario, you don't really worry about how much cash is in your pocket...do you? I want a rifle that is mobile, effective and accurate out to 300+ yards.

Now, once out of the city and all I need to worry about for the most part is finding food and critters to eat, then a .22lr would be best. I would want to save the ammo for my M4 for any human-defense that I may need to have at some point in the future.

This is my "OSK" (Oh Sh!t Kit)



And, I have a .22lr that I recently added to my BOB for once I get where I am going: (I can swap the scope to the M4 if needed)





This rifle is meant for long-range defense up to 400-600 yards and will be with me when I am mobile in a vehicle, hopefully able to get it out of the city with me, but I may need to abandon it if I must leave the vehicle, as it weighs quite a bit: (yes, I will render it inoperable if I need to leave it)