now i will try to be clear about this. but lets just say that one day the goverment was to take our guns . this is for the cops in this forum by the way. but what would you do would you go up to you'er friend and ask for his gun? or try to enforce the law ?now i'm not trying to start nuthing here so if you don't understand please ask.i was just wondering what you would do . would you enforce the law or turn in you'er badge.
Before I even finished reading your post I thought to myself, "They can have my badge!" I'm not enforcing that law. Hopefully, it would be the Feds who came for the guns, not the local boys.....
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There's no one more thankful to sit at the table, than the one who best remembers hunger's pain.
Tommy I r not a cop...and Ive been called anti goverment but MY PERSONAL beliefe is that the inital gun grabs will come in the form of confescating guns from people no longer elagable to own firearms because of strict gun laws...the nose will slowly tighten to us all. I dont see it as simple as getting a letter from the police "Dear Bob please turn in your firearms tommorw say noonish"
I can tell you plain and clear, and the regulars in here know what's coming.
If I were still working I would give them the badge in a heart beat.
To me any change to the 2nd. Amendment prohibiting guns would surely be an indication of the NWO knocking at everyone's door. And, I won't be part of a NWO. It'd be that NWO that strikes down the only constitution I know to uphold.
1*, with the number of guns out here if, IF, they were so stupid to try to pick up the guns that weren't turned in under intimidation and coercion, it would take more manpower that just the Feds.
First, they would try to even the playing field some by enacting a law requiring to voluntarily turn them in. This would be a clear indicator of the cooperation they could expect.
Then they would likely pass some law that would seize your home, trucks, cars, and any other property you might own to force you to turn them in.
Then for those still holding out they would put a hold on your paycheck, IF you still had a job, to squeeze more guns out.
Any monies due back from income taxes would be seized until even more turn in their guns.
You want medical care you say? Gimme your guns, they say.
By this time they have taken legal control of the stores and if you have any money left, it's no good. Turn in you weapons and get their certificates to eat with.
It would take the Feds, the locals, the Military and any poor slob they could get, or force, to sign on for the mission to capture the remaining guns because by this time they know the gun owner isn't going to greet them with open arms and a handshake.
And, it woulld be a posse sized group going to each home. Well, it'd better be if they come here....and thats fer sure......yepper.
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"It confuses me how some people can vigorously go against the 2nd. Amendment and still call themselves patriotic"-me
Like I said above, Wes, they would employ some pretty devious and blood thirsty tactics to get, probably, a good large percentage to turn them in initially.
It's be the last 10 percent or so that they'll have fun with, I'm sure.
Then, of that 10 percent another percentage will bend their knees and give in.
In the long run I'd say it'd be less than 2 percent of us holding out, if that much.
And that's just the segment of normally law abiding citizens.
The criminal element of society is another bag of worms they would have to deal with.
Getting all the guns to where the NWO would feel comfortable would take a long, long time, I'm sure.
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"It confuses me how some people can vigorously go against the 2nd. Amendment and still call themselves patriotic"-me
I never seen it. It could be urban legend stuff. But, about '89 in our unit (AD military) some people claimed they recieved a survey asking if they would carry out orders for such a project.
For the hand full of people I knew who claimed to recieve this sopposed survey. Not one said yes.
I think I heard that the redcoats try that about 226 years ago and the result was devastating for them.
I believe this country was founded in a few principles written some place called the constitution, and I think it would take more than 226 more years to change that.
Sure they may try to tame the lion but we as law abiding gun owners have to take note on who is who in the congress and state government and make them know our point of view.
If push comes to shove, then it is up to us to decide the outcome.
When the time comes that could be anyday now, I dont know when we will take our next hit it will be soon. The NATO troops that are in this country (325,000 at last count) will take over law enforcement they have been training to do just that. The cop on the street will be disarmed and in the same camps we will be in. We have been setup for the fall they have used 9/11 to pass laws ( that they never read they just singed) that would never have been past with out it. There is a world of hurt coming and it will not matter if you have a badge or not the NWO dont care about you or your family. And for those that dont believe just keep watching and believing the news listen to G.W.B and just keep waveing your flag...
The worst kind of slave is the one who thinks he is free...
The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered eastern people to have arms. History teaches thet all conquerors who have allowed thir subject race to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so...Adolf Hitler...4/11/1942
i was just thinking what would people do.i know i would not give them up at least not without a fight. i'm a die haerd gun owner. and plan to stay that way.
We believe the citizens of the United States and others who live in our country are in grave danger of being denied the inalienable rights that have made this country the best and brightest hope for the World for over 200 years. Many of our Rights have already been stolen and abuses have been visited upon U.S. Citizens, and other people across the world, at the hands of government agents acting in the name of our Nation.
We have a good system of government, but it needs to perform only its lawful functions and to be bound once again by the restraints of the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights. We feel it is every U.S. Citizen's duty to protect and defend these important documents and ensure the guidelines it dictates are followed. There exist those currently in the U.S. government who would ignore its demands of restraint, fair and just legislation, strict division and limited scope of governmental powers. We feel it is every American's duty to elect and support those who take their oath to defend and protect the Constitution seriously and will stand by their promises.
The International Charter of Flag Etiquette states that a flag may be flown upside down in cases of extreme distress. We fly our flag upside down to call out to fellow Americans, and to make them aware that our country is in distress. We seek to inform our fellow citizens and spread word of the changes that are needed to ensure our Liberty.
Most of the lawmakers on Capitol Hill support laws that infringe our Rights on a daily basis. We are saying 'enough is enough', we want the Bill of Rights and Constitution restored in America.
It is evident that our Freedom is in grave jeopardy. This is proven not only by the actions of our Representatives and Senators, but by the actions of our Attorney General, John Ashcroft who turned his back on the Civil Liberties of U.S. Citizens and others. His calls for Unconstitutional laws supposedly to combat terrorism in the wake of the horrific attacks on September 11, 2001 in NYC are nothing short of Anti-Freedom, dare we say, Anti-American. He claimed to hold these values dear and to defend the Constitution. He lied to the American Public. He seeks to take our Freedoms away.
During this time of war and in an age of untold technical ability, we can't afford to allow any more infringements to occur. We must stand together, United, to demand our country, our Constitution, and our Bill of Rights are restored. We must keep our country safe from enemies, both foreign and domestic. Now more than ever we need the protections of the Constitution. Now more than ever we need to stand together and demand honor among our leaders. Together we can assure that Liberty and the true Spirit of America will prevail!
by Tina Terry
(As published in THE FIREARMS SENTINEL)
Those who stridently and self-righteously lobby for the seizure of all guns by the government in America, particularly women like Sarah Brady, Barbra Streisand, Senators Diane Feinstein and Barbara Boxer and Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy, would do well to study the results of forced disarmament in other countries.
I have personally lived through a government-instigated disarmament of the general public, and its subsequent, disastrous consequences: From 1961 to 1977 my father (who is a white American, as are my mother, sister and I) was stationed with his family and business in Kingston, Jamaica.
Around 1972, the political situation in Jamaica had so seriously deteriorated that there were constant shootings and gun battles throughout the city of Kingston and in many of the outlying parishes (counties). In years past no one had even had to lock their doors, but now many people hardly dared venture out of their homes. This was especially true for white people, and even more especially for Americans, because of the real risk of being gunned down or kidnapped and held hostage by Jamaicans, who had become increasingly hostile towards whites and foreigners. My father took his life into his hands every morning simply driving to work. Going to the market or to do a simple errand was often a terrifying prospect. The open hatred and hostility which was directed at us seemed ready at any time to explode into violence, and indeed did so towards many people on many occasions, often with tragic or fatal results.
The Jamaican government decided that the only solution to this volatile situation was to declare martial law overnight, and to demand that all guns and bullets owned by anyone but the police and the military be turned into the police within 24 hours. The government decreed that anyone caught with even one bullet would be immediately, and without trial, incarcerated in what was essentially a barbed-wire enclosed concentration camp which had been speedily erected in the middle of Kingston. In true Orwellian fashion, the government referred to this camp as "the gun court."
My father and all of our American, Canadian, British and European friends, as well as middle class Jamaicans of all colors (locally referred to as "black," 'white," or "beige") knew that we were all natural targets of this kind of draconian government punishment. The relentless anti-American propaganda spewed forth by Michael Manley, Jamaica's admittedly pro-Castro Prime Minister, had resulted in the widespread hatred of Americans, British and Europeans by many Jamaicans. Racial hatred of whites and "beiges," as well as class hatred of anyone who appeared to have money or property, were rampant.
Consequently, we all dutifully and immediately disarmed ourselves, and handed our weapons in at the nearest police station. It was either that or be sent straight to the gun court. Even after we had disarmed ourselves, we lived in deathly fear that the cops, not known for their integrity, and well-known for their hatred of whites and Americans, would plant a gun or bullet on our property or persons.
So there we all were - government-disarmed, sitting-duck, law-abiding citizens and expatriates. Anyone can guess what happened next: the rampant and unfettered carnage began in earnest. Robberies, kidnappings, murders, burglaries, rapes - all committed by the vast populace of still-armed criminals. Doubtless the criminals were positively ecstatic that the government had been so helpful in creating all these juicy and utterly defenseless victims for their easy prey.
We've all heard the phrase, "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns." I can personally confirm that this statement is absolutely and painfully true, because that is exactly how the Jamaican disarmament worked. At the time of the disarmament order, I was away at boarding school in the United States. However, I remember vividly coming home for the summer. I remember the muted but pervasive atmosphere of tension and terror which constantly permeated our household, affecting even our loyal black servants, who worked for and lived with us, and whom we took care of. (Practically every household in Jamaica, except the very poorest, had live-in servants. There was no welfare or public school in Jamaica, so middle-class families became completely responsible for the well-being of their servants, who were considered to be part of the family, including taking them to the doctor, and helping to educate their children.)
I remember lying awake in bed at night, clutching the handle of an ice-pick I had put under my pillow, and listening to the screaming of car-loads of Jamaican gangs going by our house, praying that they wouldn't pick our home to plunder. The favorite tactic was for a group of thugs to roar up to a house, pile out, batter down the door and rape, steal, kill, kidnap... whatever they felt like. They knew the inhabitants had been disarmed, and that they would be met with only fear and defenselessness. My pathetic ice-pick seemed incredibly puny, but it was all I could think of. Our family didn't even own a baseball bat. I remember lying awake thinking about how our beloved dogs were old and feeble, and that they could not protect us. And that I could not protect them either.
I can barely describe the abject terror and helplessness I felt as both a white American and as a young woman during that time. Jamaica was then about 90% black. Although I was (and still am) an American citizen, my family had lived in Kingston for almost 12 years when this situation occurred, and I considered Jamaica to be my real home. Many of my friends were Jamaican. My first serious boy-friend was Jamaican. For all its faults, I loved this beautiful, suffering island dearly, and I felt like a stranger when I was away at school in America, where I was always homesick for Jamaica.
When we had first moved to Jamaica in 1960, my sister and I (both blonde and obviously white) had been able to ride our horses up into the hills, and, whenever we encountered local Jamaicans, their salutation to us was open and friendly, as was ours to them. As things deteriorated into the reign of terror, and then the government instituted overnight citizen disarmament, when we ventured outside our home, we almost always encountered hate-filled stares and hostile hisses of, "Eh, white *****! Eh, look 'ere, white *****!" and other unprintable epithets.
Jamaica was, in the 1970's, a country with at least 50% illiteracy and an illegitimacy rate of over 50%. If a Jamaican girl wasn't pregnant by the age of 15 or 16, she was often derisively branded "a mule," since mules, the offspring of horses and donkeys, are almost always sterile. Being a woman, let alone a white woman, in such a climate, especially after the disarmament of the citizenry by the government, was one of the most terrifying experiences one can imagine.
At that time, I had never held or fired a gun. I had rarely ever even seen a gun. No one in my family had ever learned about, used or even talked about firearms, except my father, who had been in the U.S. army. In our social circle, guns were deemed "unseemly" and "inappropriate" for polite society, and especially for young ladies. I had never given much thought to any of the Bill of Rights, let alone the Second Amendment. Yet we Americans all knew the Bill of Rights did not protect us in Jamaica, just as it hadn't applied to us at our previous station in Singapore.
My dad had fought in World War II, however, and had brought back a Luger pistol, which he had taken with him to Jamaica when we moved there after having spent 6 years in Singapore. No law had prevented his bringing a gun to Jamaica in 1960. When my dad handed that pistol and all his bullets in to the police, I vaguely realized that he was no longer allowed by the government to protect my mom, my sister or me, or our household.
I was pretty confused at the time. Terrified of being kidnapped, raped, murdered, robbed, at the same time I was still mindlessly anti-gun, because the criminals all had guns, and the government had declared guns to be contraband, and we were all terrified of being hurt by bad guys with guns, all of which somehow meant that guns must be "dangerous" and "bad" and therefore should be banned, just as the Jamaican government had decreed. As white Americans, our status was that of permanent guests in a foreign and increasingly hostile country. In fact, after 6 years in Singapore, and 12 in Jamaica, we well knew how to strive to be "model guests," which meant that questioning or challenging the Jamaican government's authority was unthinkable -- even when such government authority decreed that we be made helpless. None of us had any illusions about any "rights" to defend ourselves. We might have been able to do so with the government's blessing in the good old days, before chaos and violence and racial hatred had taken over. But now it was different. Now we were white, visible, foreign, sitting ducks in a hostile black sea. And I was a white, visible, foreign, female sitting duck.
As obedient as I was to authority, I grasped that our household was defenseless, and that I as a woman was particularly defenseless. And I realized that, had my dad still had his pistol, I would have felt much safer. I even realized that I would be willing to pick up a gun if my life were threatened. For a person who claimed to be anti-gun, these feelings really confused me.
At least eleven friends and acquaintances of my family were raped, kidnapped, murdered or robbed within about a year after the disarmament, and I believe it is a miracle that we are all still alive. I am convinced that many of these people would not have been victims had they not been disarmed by the Jamaican government. It was tragically ironic that the government had sold this whole disarmament program to us with the promise that: "We're here to help you, and this is for your own good and safety."
Because of this horrid and indelible experience, and of my interest in and undying loyalty to the American Bill of Rights, I have made it my personal business to study the history of the Second Amendment. I have studied related topics, too, such as police responsibility to citizens. It is my belief that many people believe that disarmament is no big deal, because it is the job of the police to protect us. Particularly many women seem to believe this. The media and of government authorities continue to generate pervasive and corrosive propaganda aimed at creating a helpless and disarmed populace. I used to completely believe this propaganda, but I have learned the following realities:
1. The police have no legal duty to protect individual citizens, and cannot be held responsible if they fail to do so. Even if a citizen's 911 call gets through to the emergency center, the police can simply choose not to show up, and the citizen has no legal recourse against the police. The courts have repeatedly ruled on this. As the court wrote in Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982): "There is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen. It is monstrous if the state fails to protect its residents against such predators but does not violate the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, or, we suppose, any other provision of the Constitution. The Constitution is a charter of negative liberties: it tells the state to let the people alone; it does not require the federal government or the state to provide services, even so elementary a service as maintaining law and order." The U.S. Supreme Court, in South v. Maryland, __ U.S. ___, ruled in a similar vein as far back as 1856.
2. The police carry guns primarily to defend THEMSELVES, not to protect us.
3. Because of items 1 and 2 above, we should all consider the police to be, essentially, HISTORIANS. They show up AFTER the crime has been committed and attempt to reconstruct and document the history of the crime. If the history is satisfactorily re-constructed, then the perpetrator is apprehended (if he can be found) and then (perhaps) prosecuted. This after-the-fact law enforcement does little good for the dead or wounded crime victims.
4. Women have a particular stake in preserving the right to bear arms. There is no way to describe the helplessness a woman feels when she is disarmed and made helpless by anyone. Add to that the rage she feels when the agency who is disarming her and leaving her at the mercy of rapists, murderers, goons and thugs, is a sanctimonious government telling her that it's "for her own good."
Although there are many serious issues in today's roiling political and social stew, I believe that preserving and restoring the Bill of Rights in general, and the Second Amendment in particular, is the most pivotal and basic issue to all Americans, and particularly female Americans, even if they don't yet know it. The consummate idiocy propounded by some folks (including some women) that the Second Amendment exists only to protect sportsmen's rights is particularly ridiculous relevant to women, most of whom don't hunt, and who care more about being able to get a decent hand-gun for self-protection than a hunting rifle to pursue deer or elk.
Anyone who thinks the Bill of Rights is either "out of date," "hokey" or "needs revising" - all of which I've heard from well-meaning but tragically ignorant and complacent Americans - should try living in a country which doesn't have one. I have been there and done that, and I don't want to go through it ever again - especially not in my own native nation. So I am dedicated to preventing today's government nanny from turning, as so often has occurred in history, into tomorrow's government despot.
Finally, I implore anyone reading this, particularly women, to likewise dedicate themselves to studying this issue carefully, and to likewise taking an active stance to preserve the Bill of Rights in general and the Second Amendment in particular.
Postscript: As of the latter part of August of this year (1998), it doesn't appear that the situation in Jamaica has changed much for the better. Many Jamaicans of all colors have immigrated to America to start businesses and to escape the hopelessness of the situation in their homeland. I recently spoke with a black Jamaican named Marcus, who has opened a wonderful Jamaican restaurant in Phoenix named "Likkle Montego," where I can go and eat Jamaican food, and catch the latest news from my long-lost home. When asked how things are today in Kingston, Marcus simply shook his head: "Nottin' change attahl, y'know. Everyt'ing still de same. Crime is still bad, mon. Gov'ment still de same. T'ings dere is bad and terrible, mon. Bad and terrible."
And guns are still outlawed in Jamaica. Armed criminals still terrorize disarmed citizens, since still in Jamaica only outlaws (and the government) have guns. Like the man said: Bad and terrible, mon. Bad and terrible.
Copyright (c) 1998 Tina Terry
Permission is given to republish this article, as long as none of it is changed, shortened or altered, the author and JPFO are given full credit in any such republishing, and this entire republishing message is included. Author may be reached by writing to: Tina Terry c/o JPFO, PO Box 270143, Hartford, WI, 53027.
Mandy, from what I have seen of your posts I thoroughly respect you. The one point I address in your post is that of letting our elected representatives know what we deserve, desire and expect.
Do you really think they are in this for us? I think very, very few are.....truly and unfortunately.
Months and years to come will only tell if those for us deminish in numbers.
I am quickly becoming very disgruntled with the 'turn coats' in Congress....in Cabinet positions.........in the Joint Chief of Staffs, etc. who will roll over to the side that affords the most protection and security in their careers.....all at our sake......and with more and more running in that direction each day.
Do I need to remind anyone where the suggested bill, 'Truth in Campaining', went? :-)
I posted, many months ago, about the law that VERY nearly passed in Congress which would require each household filing an income tax form to declare, by serial number, type, etc. of the weapons in that household.
It was hidden, so to speak, in language that appeared to generate taxes from gun ownership (so much per gun). It was defeated, primarily by a very small handful of Republicans, but the margin was slim.
I wish I could find that article....dang. It was spine chilling and named names.
There was also mention, following that, to have the census laws changed to allow for similar questions on the census form.
So, my point is, simply, that there IS an element in Congress looking down their noses at gun owners (that's no secret) but I think it's a larger number than we really understand.
Knowing it is so easy to attach riders to bills introduced in Congress it could be just a matter of time before one detrimental bill slides through.
Then, may God help us all!
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"It confuses me how some people can vigorously go against the 2nd. Amendment and still call themselves patriotic"-me
Tommy first of all gun confiscation will probably happen on the federal level--not the state. We have been training foreign troops on our soil for many years. Wouldn't it make sense to use those troops to enforce anti-gun laws. After all they don't have any allegiance to this country or it's citizens.
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God Bless.
From Tejas -- formerly known as Texas.
