Shooting two black labs "justified".

Coeloptera · 09-05-2008, 01:11 PM

washingtonpost.com

Remember the no-knock raid on a mayor's house wherein the LEOs shot and killed his two black labs?

Necropsy's in...and what the Sheriff's Office is saying is very much at odds with the evidence of the ncropsy...yet they're saying it was justified anyway.

The mayor in question is not done with this by a long shot.

"According to the necropsy, 7-year-old Payton was shot four times, twice in the chest and twice in the head. One of the shots entered through his mouth and lodged in the back of his neck.
Four-year-old Chase was shot twice. One bullet entered the dog's back left leg, then lodged in his right back leg. The other entered his side and passed through his chest."

Back legs huh? Then side to chest? Sounds to me like someone shot a fleeing animal.

Let us not forget these are Labrador retrievers. Not really an aggressive breed in any estimation. They are, in fact, lousy guard dogs.

"Jackson said the department looked at each shooting in detail. The first dog was engaging officers near the front door, he said. The second was shot, he said, as it ran away from the deputy who fired and toward an officer standing in an adjacent hallway with his back turned.
Calvo said there was no way a deputy shooting from the kitchen could have seen another officer in the hallway as Jackson described. He called on the sheriff's department to release photos taken of the dogs the night of the raid, which he said will prove the point."

You know what we keep saying about better internal controls for LEOs?

- Coeloptera

cremley · 09-05-2008, 02:41 PM

I am not going to go off on my mad frenzy like I did the last time because I now understand the "good apple, bad apple" scenario. However, I think these "bad apples" should still be punished to the full extent of the law. if you don't take out the one moldy bad apple out of the basket, the rest will be moldy and bad as well.

I used to own a black lab and one of my friends had a black lab. before they passed away, both of those dogs wouldn't hurt a soul and they were very nice dogs. I can't see anything that would be "justified" in shooting them. it is like shooting an unarmed victim when they were running away and I guarantee you that the bad apples would get punished for that.

Chris

Windwalker · 09-05-2008, 03:26 PM

Sure sounds like a whitewash job to me.

HEMI · 09-05-2008, 06:19 PM

Shame, Hopefully they investigate the incident properly, and lay charges if there was any wrong doing. I wasn't there so.....

Handgunner101 · 09-05-2008, 06:42 PM

Hopefully they'll look at the root cause of the whole fiasco. I seriously doubt the LEOs who shot the dogs got up in the morning thinking...hey, lets go shoot some family pets. Seems to me a picture was probably painted for them before hand which set things in motion. As has been stated by many LEOs in this forum, it's a tough job and good cops die. If inexperienced cops were sent in under the pretense that it was a big time drug dealers house...the folks that set up that scenario are the ones that need to answer for it. But like Hemi said...I wasn't there.

Rambo · 09-05-2008, 06:57 PM

Since I wasn't there, kicking in a door and finding dogs in front of me, I can't say anything other than it sucked to be a lab that day. I can say that I know my dog doesn't bite but I won't chance anyone elses dog.
At least no human beings died that day during the raid.

Coeloptera · 09-05-2008, 07:04 PM

I think this is more and indictment of needless no-knock raids than anything else. They knew someone in the area was doing drop-offs via FedEx, they should have known it was the mayor's house.

Their intel was garbage and again...it's drugs. How can you flush an entire package of them?

You wait until the perp leaves the house, and/or you grab the driver as he leaves. There is no need to go raiding someone's house for a drug offense. If you have the property under surveillance it's not like they can teleport the drugs out.

- Coeloptera

Handgunner101 · 09-05-2008, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambo

Since I wasn't there, kicking in a door and finding dogs in front of me, I can't say anything other than it sucked to be a lab that day. I can say that I know my dog doesn't bite but I won't chance anyone elses dog.
At least no human beings died that day during the raid.

I guess that was kinda my point, can't really blame the cops that did the shooting since I wasn't there. The primary issue though is that there never should have been a raid. But @#it rolls down hill so if anyone goes down, it's probably going to be the guys that went through the door.

DWFan · 09-06-2008, 12:19 AM

Ya'll might not be able to blame the police that were on the scene, but I certainly do. At some point in time an individual has to be responsible for their actions and not use the excuse of "I did what I was told" or "I'm just doing my job". Police aren't supposed to be robots and nobody...and I seriously mean nobody...should ever pull the trigger on a weapon without being sure of their target and have the backbone to stand up as an adult and admit when they made a mistake.
I don't hold the officers solely at fault in this incident. The machinery that created the situation and the machinery which will now try to bury the truth are just as responsible, if not more so.

troy2000 · 09-06-2008, 12:46 AM

As far as I can tell from here, the shootings seem to have been unnecessary. But as a former meter reader and former Lab owner, I'll say this: Lab's are big, strong dogs. And although usually mellow and friendly, they can also be protective. I've seen them turn into very scary animals in a heartbeat, when they thought their family was in danger.

If I burst into a home with the owners there and discovered two Lab's in front of me, I'd be seriously worried.

Handgunner101 · 09-06-2008, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWFan

Ya'll might not be able to blame the police that were on the scene, but I certainly do. At some point in time an individual has to be responsible for their actions and not use the excuse of "I did what I was told" or "I'm just doing my job". Police aren't supposed to be robots and nobody...and I seriously mean nobody...should ever pull the trigger on a weapon without being sure of their target and have the backbone to stand up as an adult and admit when they made a mistake.
I don't hold the officers solely at fault in this incident. The machinery that created the situation and the machinery which will now try to bury the truth are just as responsible, if not more so.

I pretty much took this same stance in my response to the original thread on this story. I have a 120 pound male Doberman, and were he to attack, I'd challenge anyone to put him down before being bitten. So I certainly had doubts these dogs, though not Dobermans, were attacking. But having time to think about it, I have no way of knowing what took place or the mind set of the police at the time. So, not wanting to parrot the media I often criticize for uninformed judgment...I'm softening my stance until more information is provided. There's been a lot of opportunistic negative posts about cops in a lot of different threads lately of which I was not immune. I guess I've just decided not to jump on the band wagon anymore. I don't trust the media for most other reporting...why should I take their word verbatim on all bad cop stories?

Ballbearing · 09-07-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windwalker

Sure sounds like a whitewash job to me.

Ditto.

09-05-2008, 01:11 PM	#1
Coeloptera Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 2,144	Shooting two black labs "justified". washingtonpost.com Remember the no-knock raid on a mayor's house wherein the LEOs shot and killed his two black labs? Necropsy's in...and what the Sheriff's Office is saying is very much at odds with the evidence of the ncropsy...yet they're saying it was justified anyway. The mayor in question is not done with this by a long shot. "According to the necropsy, 7-year-old Payton was shot four times, twice in the chest and twice in the head. One of the shots entered through his mouth and lodged in the back of his neck. Four-year-old Chase was shot twice. One bullet entered the dog's back left leg, then lodged in his right back leg. The other entered his side and passed through his chest." Back legs huh? Then side to chest? Sounds to me like someone shot a fleeing animal. Let us not forget these are Labrador retrievers. Not really an aggressive breed in any estimation. They are, in fact, lousy guard dogs. "Jackson said the department looked at each shooting in detail. The first dog was engaging officers near the front door, he said. The second was shot, he said, as it ran away from the deputy who fired and toward an officer standing in an adjacent hallway with his back turned. Calvo said there was no way a deputy shooting from the kitchen could have seen another officer in the hallway as Jackson described. He called on the sheriff's department to release photos taken of the dogs the night of the raid, which he said will prove the point." You know what we keep saying about better internal controls for LEOs? - Coeloptera

09-05-2008, 02:41 PM	#2
cremley Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Southern New Mexico Posts: 1,249	I am not going to go off on my mad frenzy like I did the last time because I now understand the "good apple, bad apple" scenario. However, I think these "bad apples" should still be punished to the full extent of the law. if you don't take out the one moldy bad apple out of the basket, the rest will be moldy and bad as well. I used to own a black lab and one of my friends had a black lab. before they passed away, both of those dogs wouldn't hurt a soul and they were very nice dogs. I can't see anything that would be "justified" in shooting them. it is like shooting an unarmed victim when they were running away and I guarantee you that the bad apples would get punished for that. Chris __________________ I wouldn't be so paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get me.

09-05-2008, 03:26 PM	#3
Windwalker Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 3,999	Sure sounds like a whitewash job to me. __________________ America: Love it and protect it or leave it

09-05-2008, 06:57 PM	#6
Rambo Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Iowa Posts: 934	Since I wasn't there, kicking in a door and finding dogs in front of me, I can't say anything other than it sucked to be a lab that day. I can say that I know my dog doesn't bite but I won't chance anyone elses dog. At least no human beings died that day during the raid. __________________ If you run, you'll just die tired.

09-06-2008, 12:46 AM	#10
troy2000 Resident Armed Liberal Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 10,017 Images: 9	As far as I can tell from here, the shootings seem to have been unnecessary. But as a former meter reader and former Lab owner, I'll say this: Lab's are big, strong dogs. And although usually mellow and friendly, they can also be protective. I've seen them turn into very scary animals in a heartbeat, when they thought their family was in danger. If I burst into a home with the owners there and discovered two Lab's in front of me, I'd be seriously worried. __________________ I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said. WF Buckley, Jr Last edited by troy2000; 09-06-2008 at 12:54 AM.

09-05-2008, 06:19 PM	#4
HEMI Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 828	Shame, Hopefully they investigate the incident properly, and lay charges if there was any wrong doing. I wasn't there so.....

09-05-2008, 06:42 PM	#5
Handgunner101 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Mi Posts: 115	Hopefully they'll look at the root cause of the whole fiasco. I seriously doubt the LEOs who shot the dogs got up in the morning thinking...hey, lets go shoot some family pets. Seems to me a picture was probably painted for them before hand which set things in motion. As has been stated by many LEOs in this forum, it's a tough job and good cops die. If inexperienced cops were sent in under the pretense that it was a big time drug dealers house...the folks that set up that scenario are the ones that need to answer for it. But like Hemi said...I wasn't there.

09-05-2008, 07:04 PM	#7
Coeloptera Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 2,144	I think this is more and indictment of needless no-knock raids than anything else. They knew someone in the area was doing drop-offs via FedEx, they should have known it was the mayor's house. Their intel was garbage and again...it's drugs. How can you flush an entire package of them? You wait until the perp leaves the house, and/or you grab the driver as he leaves. There is no need to go raiding someone's house for a drug offense. If you have the property under surveillance it's not like they can teleport the drugs out. - Coeloptera

09-06-2008, 12:19 AM	#9
DWFan Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: N. Texas Posts: 922 Blog Entries: 2	Ya'll might not be able to blame the police that were on the scene, but I certainly do. At some point in time an individual has to be responsible for their actions and not use the excuse of "I did what I was told" or "I'm just doing my job". Police aren't supposed to be robots and nobody...and I seriously mean nobody...should ever pull the trigger on a weapon without being sure of their target and have the backbone to stand up as an adult and admit when they made a mistake. I don't hold the officers solely at fault in this incident. The machinery that created the situation and the machinery which will now try to bury the truth are just as responsible, if not more so.