This from the Friday, September 5, 2008 edition of the New York Post, page 38. Report by Jennifer Fermino and Philip Messing.
A Manhattan boutique owner is suing craigslist.com for $10 million, claiming he was shot with a gun purchased on the popular Web site.
Calvin Gibson, 50, who was shot six times by his schizophrenic neighbor in the East Village on July 24, believes the classified site is partially responsible.
"But for defendant's negligence in failing to supervise and monitor the content of the ads placed on its Internet service, [the shooter] could never have legally obtained the handgun," according to the lawsuit filed yesterday in Manhattan federal court.
The alleged gunman, Jesus Ortiz, who is being held without bail, "has a psychiatric history and a history of violent crime," Gibson claims in the suit, and could never have qualified for a gun permit.
"New York has an extremely stringent gun law," the suit says.
He claims Ortiz told the cops he bought the gun on craigslist and that the suspect's mother told others the same story.
Gibson was shot after he stopped at a deli on East Seventh Street near Avenue D. A teen, Mohammed Islam, 18, was also wounded in the random attack.
NYPD officials could not confirm the suit's claim. A craigslist spokesman could not be reached.
Even if the courts throw out this lawsuit, or the suit is decided against Gibson because the seller is not responsible for the end use of the item sold (otherwise, there would be no liquor stores because they would be held responsible for deaths due to drunk drivers; likewise there would be no used car dealers), I predict this case will cause trouble for gun owners in New York State. Even conceding that with his violent crime and mental health history, which might well include a stint in a mental hospital and thus doubly disqualify Ortiz from owning any firearm let alone a pistol, I do not see anything good for gun owners coming out of this.
By definition, any sale where the buyer and seller get hold of each other through craigslist.com is a private party sale. In New York, private party sales of longarms are unregulated. There is no NICS check and no permit required. Pistol sales by private citizens, however, are regulated. Here is how a private party sale of a pistol works.
The seller provides a bill of sale to the buyer. The buyer then has to take the bill of sale to the County Clerk and apply to have the pistol added to his/her pistol permit. You fill out a form identifying the pistol by maker, type, caliber and serial number, and attest that you are still in good standing with the state's pistol permit requirements. The form then is reviewed by the county judge, and if he signs off on it (I've never heard of a judge refusing to do so, but I suppose it could happen if the judge was suspicious or if a check turned up something wrong) the buyer is issued an engraved coupon with the maker, type, caliber and serial number typed on the relevant lines and signed in ink by His Honor. The buyer pays a filing fee of $3 and takes the coupon back to the seller. Only then can the buyer take possession of the pistol. The process usually takes at least a week and oftentimes longer if the judge is busy with trials. However, the seller is not required to run a NICS check on the buyer.
Whoever the seller is in this case, he broke the law when he sold the pistol to Ortiz without demanding to see Ortiz's pistol permit and a coupon before handing it over. I'm sure the police will be wanting to talk to him about that. What concerns me more is the long-term impact of this case, both on craigslist.com and on people who want to sell guns privately.
The immediate impact I expect to be on craigslist.com. Like eBay before them, it will not surprise me when they will stop accepting ads for guns and gun parts. This is not a big deal to me, because there are other auction sites that specialize in firearms and gun accessories. The market is not closed; just one store in it has stopped selling.
A greater impact could be on private sales in New York State. New York is what some describe as a Peoples Democratic Republic state when it comes to firearms. New York places more, and less reasonable, restrictions on shooters and gun owners than almost any other state in the nation. It would not surprise me to see one of the Democratic Party's state assemblymen use this case as grounds to introduce a bill outlawing the private party sale of firearms in New York. At best, such a bill might require all sales to pass through a gun shop, where NICS checks could be run, and sales tax and a transfer fee charged on them. At worst, it could outlaw private sales altogether and require that anyone wanting to sell a gun must sell it to a licensed gun dealer.
I suppose we gun owners in New York should be looking on the bright side. At least the New York Times didn't pick up on this, and even the Post buried it well inside. And so far, there has been no legislative notice taken of the case. But I'll be keeping my eyes open anyway. We've little enough gun freedom in this state that we want to lose any more.
If it went through the proper channels, FFL to FFL, then I don;t see how it could be bad for guns and gun owners in New York. If the seller didn't follow the obvious rules for selling a gun, PERIOD, then it's on him. I'm also sure that Craigslists has a waiver people have to agree to? I'm sure no matter what, Mayor Bloomberg will have a field day with this.
If this goes to court and is won, look out all auto manufacturers, baseball bat makers, pipe makers whatever. Because any manufacturers end product can be used for other then what it was made for. The manufacturers can't be held responsible. How can anyone know what a person they sell something to will do with it? How can they be held liable. But if Craigslist doesn't allow firearms to be sold, and they didn't remove the add, then yes, they're liable.
So then should Craigslist because someone didn't follow the rules for sellfing a firearm?
Keep us up to date. Very curious to know the outcome?
FWIW, I don't claim to be right or accurate on any of this, just expressing my views is all. Seems we should all have a disclaimer anymore? lmao
__________________ "My next door neighbors two dogs have created more shovel ready jobs then Obama has." - Gary Johnson
So, this guy's a psycho with a violent criminal past and now it's the websites problem? If blame is placed anywhere, shouldn't it be with the judge who obviously gave too light a sentence or with the shrink who ok'd his release into society?
Well I'll be. Some people got nerve, he's the victim because he got shot by a unregistered Schizophrenic? They ought to look credible on the stand. Craigslist is not responsible for the mental disposition of the buyers. They sold my boat in 6 hrs, hope the guy don't kill nobody with it. Oh my God, he's caught fish with it! Now I'm in big trouble.
Ya know, the saddest part is that no matter what kind of lawsuit somebody dreams up, there's always a lawyer that'll say "Hell yeah, let's do it! Cha-ching, cha-ching, baby!".
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I child-proofed my house, but they still keep getting in!
Its actully against the rules to post firearms for sale on craigslist.
That's what I thought. So then, if someone did, and didn't misrepresent it or themselves, is or should craigslist be held liable and or in some way responsible?
This is something even Chris here at G&G has to be concerned about and was for some time and why he didn't have a classified section for quite some time. Surprised he doesn't have a disclaimer, maybe he does, that you have to sign to post? But as I said, maybe he does and you'll only see it if you post a firearm for sale?
__________________ "My next door neighbors two dogs have created more shovel ready jobs then Obama has." - Gary Johnson
One day the legal and medical systems are going to have to understand that those mentally ill individuals who have a history of violent crime despite being treated for their illness simply cannot be set free to do whatever they wish. It is unfortunate, but such persons need to be placed in secure housing, given supervised care and not be allowed out on their own.
