Are we losing touch with what this country was founded on?
It is election year, and of course three main things always seem to come up in this country as huge issues: Religion, abortion, and gun control (or to plainly put it, the 2nd Amendment). Why do these issues become main stream issues when really we should try to fix our roads, our schools, build communities, ensure our freedoms and of course fix our foreign policy, that I think is the billion (or 700 billion) dollar question.
First, I would like to say that I went down to the Obama HQ the other night to talk directly with his volunteers and his staff. While, there is no screening or regulation on who works there because they are all volunteers I found something disturbing. None of them could answer anything about policy, they denied all sorts of association with Fannie Mae and the oil companies and they could not explain any thing on policy.
So, I went to the McCain campaign HQ and got the EXACT same results. I mean what the hell is going on in this country? Why are we just following politics like a spectator sport? Always rooting for our side no matter what?
I mean I had honestly gone down to each local HQ of their campaign office in my area and I wanted to hear what they had to say about each candidate. I wanted to hear it from the campaign staff. Even McCain's staff denied all of his financial ties to oil and investment companies.
No one from either camp could explain any thing to me other than propaganda. While, I understand that is what politics is about, but both of them have flip flopped on so many issues and both of them have lied and said a bunch of BS. I mean what are we to do?
Can we refuse an election, like we all just not vote and demand new candidates that actually have a plan of action to fix this country?
Why is the 2nd amendment so debated? Gun legislation won't stop criminals from getting guns. It won't reduce crime. However, where do we draw the line? Guns are a technology. What happens 100 years from now when we don't even use guns to kill each other? We use radio waves or some other sort of technology that replaces the gun. It is going to happen, and we need to update our bill of rights accordingly for sure. Otherwise the endless debate will never end and of course people will just chose sides over really crappy reasons in my opinion.
Violent crimes happen every day all the time and we never even once think twice about it until it happens to someone we know. I personally know this from experience. Murder rate hasn't really shot up in comparison to our population growth either. It has been on par with it in all actuality. Yet the media and ignorant people (on both sides of the argument) make arguments with hyperboles and agendas, while all at the same time not even understand how it actually works or how it affects us all.
Obama has filp flopped a bit on the gun issue but like I have said many times before I don't think anything is going to come of it if he gets elected. We have too many issues on our hands. McCain, is just as guilty as Obama and he has flip flopped on so many issues on the War in Iraq and of course his stance against big business is one huge hypocrasiy.
I want to declare a new political party that doesn't worry about the three pillars of swing voters, and that wants to actually make our lives better and with more freedom. The government should not be here to tell the individual what to do, they should instead provide factual information to each individual can make their own personal choice, period free from the morals and thoughts of religion, reproductive rights and gun control, then maybe we could progress.
What happens in 10 years when we are still in debt with China, they are then the number 1 English speaking nation (by population), we owe them money, they buy up our businesses and debt, and of course they have more honor roll students in their country than we have students in ours. Makes you think about how foreign policy can really truly be important.
Many Americans are and most politicians have. They ALL need to be reminded. And who knows, it just might take another Revolution! Or another Civil War! Or both!
__________________ "My next door neighbors two dogs have created more shovel ready jobs then Obama has." - Gary Johnson
I think the true Americans are trying their best to stay there, but their 'leaders" are not true Americans, with the socialist agendas they are shoving down our kids throats. What caused the generation gap? Socialism. Schools are pushing it, corporations are pushing it, the politicians are pushing it. If we throw the TV's in the streets on Monday, there will troops on the streets by Wednesday. That menace creates everybody's reality for them. Go fishing.
of this nation. Can you find anyone who knows of the implications of Deism as believed by most of the founding fathers as opposed to Christianity believed by George Washington? Can you find someone who knows of the battle between Federalism and Republicanism as fought in the presidential race of 1800?
It has become a sort of media event with the news outlets pounding the same old issues over and over and over and attaching liberal/conservative tags to the candidates.
I think less and less schools are even now starting to teach less on specific points in and of "our" history. It seems as if they want our children to NOT know how this country was formed because they don't want them to know how to combat it when they do it to them?
__________________ "My next door neighbors two dogs have created more shovel ready jobs then Obama has." - Gary Johnson
I agree a lot with you tlarkin!, but one note on this partial quote I differ slightly, or look at it differently
"Why is the 2nd amendment so debated? Gun legislation won't stop criminals from getting guns. It won't reduce crime. However, where do we draw the line? Guns are a technology. What happens 100 years from now when we don't even use guns to kill each other? We use radio waves or some other sort of technology that replaces the gun. It is going to happen, and we need to update our bill of rights accordingly for sure. Otherwise the endless debate will never end and of course people will just chose sides over really crappy reasons in my opinion."
While most of look at as gun rights, it is the "right to bear arms". technological advances by rights would still be covered. No different than the gun coming several centuries after the sword. As the 2A is more about defense, rather than guns or any mode armament
If you add to or as you put it "update" the Bill of Rights, then you take away the meaning and protection of not only those that are already there, but, you also take away their purpose and in a way trash everything our fore fathers stood for and did. That would actually end up removing or taking away from those Rights that already exist. Update one, you open the door for them all.
__________________ "My next door neighbors two dogs have created more shovel ready jobs then Obama has." - Gary Johnson
Last edited by GlockMeister; 10-08-2008 at 12:21 AM.
If you add to or as you put it "update" the Bill of Rights, then that will take away what those in place mean. That would actually end up removing or taking away from those Rights that already exist. Update one, you open the door for them all.
No technology changes the game GM. You think our founding fathers had any idea of what the internet would do, or an atomic bomb, or advances in medicine? Where do you draw the line on these things?
You can't be vague because then there will be no answer but you need to set guidelines so systems like the supreme court can observe and compare it to law and adjust it accordingly to preserve our rights, period.
The Patriot Act totally F'd our rights right out the window. Have you seen the new and approved people scanners they are installing at airports now? Do you want a big brother state where everything you do is recorded and reviewed?
A lot more is at stake with out updating our rights than just the 2A, believe me. Time changes, technologies change, and they change our culture and our government should adjust with it to maintain our rights and freedoms.
I think the true Americans are trying their best to stay there, but their 'leaders" are not true Americans, with the socialist agendas they are shoving down our kids throats. What caused the generation gap? Socialism. Schools are pushing it, corporations are pushing it, the politicians are pushing it. If we throw the TV's in the streets on Monday, there will troops on the streets by Wednesday. That menace creates everybody's reality for them. Go fishing.
Ah-ah-ah....noooooot quite. That's not the whole answer.
The War on Drugs comes from the Right. It helps create a permanent, self-perpetuating underclass in our country. If you are born poor, black, and in a bad neighborhood, likely you will be arrested at some point and do a little stretch. Your record will keep you from getting a better job or more educational opportunities...this will make you a drain on society with little chance of ever contributing...so if you want to get ahead...you turn to crime again.
Why are gangs such a big problem? Just so.
Unrestrained capitalism helped lead to the current problems we're seeing now. It is not the only reason, but it is a major one.
There are actually still places in the USA where it is illegal to sell sex toys. I'm not talking morning after pills or even contraceptives...sex toys.
Whether or not that's to your tastes that runs deeply counter to the spirit of freedom. That stuff comes from the far, Evangelical Right. They can actually attack your freedoms in "morally acceptable" ways. That's a crack in the armour.
I am not implying the other side isn't also causing problems. The far liberal emphasis on "everybody wins" and the paranoid, litigation-fearful culture in schools now hurts as well.
Do not EVER think it is one side or the other. It is BOTH. We need more centrist leaders if we are to drag ourselves back up.
Unrestrained capitalism helped lead to the current problems we're seeing now. It is not the only reason, but it is a major one.
- Coeloptera
Not so fast, kind sir Unrestrained capitalism in no way caused our current economic problems; it was the deliberate meddling by government--specifically karter, klinton, and others. These administrations (especially klinton) encouraged and in some cases forced (under threat of legal action) banks to make risky loans for "low income housing availibility" they otherwise wouldn't have made (were it a pure unrestrained captial market). Indeed, the word "subprime" means a loan which was not justified by the credit history of the applicant (aka bad loan). This was done with the tacit understanding the feds would be available as a safety net (and fueled by the somewhat incestuous relationship between fanny and Uncle Sam). Greed played a part (and one could argue that greed runs many markets and fosters their economic efficiency--it does need to run without government help however. The unregulated market is ruthless in punishing entities which are both greedy and incompetent); however, it was the unholy alliance between greed and political agendas which skewed the risk and caused our problems. There ain't enough oversight in the world to preclude this--we couldn't even get a handle on Enron or Worldcom before the damage was done and these are only 2 companies.
We're in our current mess BECAUSE (due to political agendas) we didn't leave the market alone. But I've more than discussed this in previous posts about the matter.
I do agree the "war on drugs" is a miserable failure, and a completely wrong way to attack a social issue.
Compromise is unwarranted when it involves the prostitution of principle; to that end centrism is undesirable in some cases. It can also be used in an insidious way to push an agenda to an extreme on unwary subjects.
As far as the 2A is concerned, barack hussein, I believe, will do great damage. Klinton also did this, and the executive branch has great powers via executive orders to ban carriage on Federal property--this could easily and insidiously be extended to rights of ways, airspace over the U.S., unsecured areas of airports, etc--you get the picture. Those yellow flyers are a hangover from the klinton days. With a dem kongress and supreme court nominees possible, our 2A could easily go away completely with an obamapresidency.
__________________
God gives us free will; the statist tries to take it away
We're in our current mess BECAUSE (due to political agendas) we didn't leave the market alone. But I've more than discussed this in previous posts about the matter.
I will grant you Clinton's policies in the matter did us no favours (I did some reading up, at your urging), but it's been 8 years of GW Bush and he allowed it to continue. He is, at best, complicit for not fixing it when warned, like 9/11 and the briefings with very, very direct titles such as "Bin Laden determined to attack the United States".
Lay blame fairly. I strive to.
I assume you have no arguments with the rest of what I said?
^ Added a couple of things, and I believe everyone has the inherent right to the sex toy of their choice
I believe that our secularism as a nation, fostered over the last 30-40 years, however, has lead to the decline of the moral fabric of our nation (this has nothing to do with sex or sex toys). Our moving away from a higher power and core values has lead to materialism and strife, and a general dissatisfaction with life in general--the "toys" we buy in life can never take the place of spiritual fulfillment. I think this is a core issue in some of our present-day problems (and I'm not talking about an organized religion at all; just recognition and dedication to a power greater than ourselves). But you can take that for what it's worth and everyone has to find this out for themselves in their own way.
Our country was founded on a belief in God and of an entity and calling greater than ourselves, and we have in some way moved away from this. I really do think we're worse off for it.
__________________
God gives us free will; the statist tries to take it away
Our country was founded on a belief in God and of an entity and calling greater than ourselves, and we have in some way moved away from this. I really do think we're worse off for it.
Not the way you'd think. Certainly not in a modern way.
You've read Jefferson in the subject, right? When the Founders used the word "God", many of them did not mean the Abrahamic deity.
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
That's from 1787, to his nephew Peter Carr.
"The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg" - Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom
You know how people say freedom of religion also means freedom from religion? Not a new idea. I likes me some Tommy J., I does.
Not really what a lot of modern Americans think, is it? See, some of them meant more of an unknowable, natural force. The Deists' "Watchmaker".
Spirituality doesn't mean deity worship...ask any Buddhist. Jefferson and Franklin would shock the Evangelicals today with their views.
- Coeloptera
Last edited by Coeloptera; 10-09-2008 at 02:48 AM.
No technology changes the game GM. You think our founding fathers had any idea of what the internet would do, or an atomic bomb, or advances in medicine? Where do you draw the line on these things?
You can't be vague because then there will be no answer but you need to set guidelines so systems like the supreme court can observe and compare it to law and adjust it accordingly to preserve our rights, period.
The Patriot Act totally F'd our rights right out the window. Have you seen the new and approved people scanners they are installing at airports now? Do you want a big brother state where everything you do is recorded and reviewed?
A lot more is at stake with out updating our rights than just the 2A, believe me. Time changes, technologies change, and they change our culture and our government should adjust with it to maintain our rights and freedoms.
tlarkin, why are you even a gun owner? Why do you bother to even own a gun? Just go and take everything you might have to your local P.D. and give them to them and go find yourself another hobby.
Our forefathers knew exactly what they were doing. They worded the Bill of Rights the way they did and included what they did to protect the people. The Bill of Rights isn't about and has nothing to do with the Government, it is for the people!
If you'd bother to notice, they left no authority and no documents that would give the Government the ability to change some things. They did that for a reason. You need to go and read some of the many quotes by our fore fathers and get back in touch with reality.
But if you can't stand by the 2nd Amendment 100% as it's written, then maybe you shouldn't be a gun owner? Oh, and by the way, I think there are a few others that should also find a new hobby as well. There are others whom I also wonder why they bother even to be a gun owner. I don't mean to be mean here, but this election could mean a point of no return for our 2nd Amendment rights and many other things.
I DO NOT WANT TO LIVE IN A SOCIALIST COUNTRY AND IN MY OPINION, WITH OBAMA, THAT'S WHERE HE'S WANTING TO TAKE THIS COUNTRY AND WHERE WE'RE HEADING...
tlarkin, here's some dam fine quotes from our fore fathers. I truly think you need to read them and think about their choice of words and what they're saying...
Samuel Adams: "The Constitution (shall) never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." -- During Massachusetts' U.S. Constitution Ratification Convention, (1788).
Edmund Burke: "The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -- 1784 speech.
Noah Webster: "The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops..." -- An examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution by the Late Convention (1787).
Benjamin Franklin: "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Historical Review of Pennsylvania, (1759).
Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Proposed Virginia Constitution (1776,) Jefferson Papers 344, (J. Boyd, ed. 1950).
John Adams: "Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion... in private self defence." -- A Defense of the U.S. Constitutions of Government of the United States of America (1787-88).
James Madison: The Constitution preserves "the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." -- The Federalist #46.
Thomas Paine: "...arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." -- Thoughts on Defensive War, (1775).
Thomas Jefferson: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Quoting 18th Century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).
Richard Henry Lee: "A militia when properly formed is in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms...To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms..." -- Additional Letters From the Federal Farmer 53 (1788).
George Mason: "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- During Virginia's ratification convention, (1788).
Roy Rogers: "They'll have to shoot me first to take my gun." -- Cowboy actor, singer and founder of Roy Rogers restaurants. .
From the 2nd Amendment of the United States Constitution: "A well Regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Ronald Wilson Reagan: "As long as there are guns, the individual that wants a gun for a crime is going to have one and going to get it. The only person who's going to be penalized and have difficulty is the law-abiding citizen, who then cannot have [it] if he wants protection -- the protection of a weapon in his home, for home protection." -- 40th U.S. President.
James Earl Jones: "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose." -- Actor.
__________________ "My next door neighbors two dogs have created more shovel ready jobs then Obama has." - Gary Johnson
Last edited by GlockMeister; 10-09-2008 at 04:07 AM.
Unrestrained capitalism in no way caused our current economic problems; it was the deliberate meddling by government--specifically karter, klinton, and others. These administrations (especially klinton) encouraged and in some cases forced (under threat of legal action) banks to make risky loans for "low income housing availibility" they otherwise wouldn't have made (were it a pure unrestrained captial market). Indeed, the word "subprime" means a loan which was not justified by the credit history of the applicant (aka bad loan). This was done with the tacit understanding the feds would be available as a safety net (and fueled by the somewhat incestuous relationship between fanny and Uncle Sam). Greed played a part (and one could argue that greed runs many markets and fosters their economic efficiency--it does need to run without government help however. The unregulated market is ruthless in punishing entities which are both greedy and incompetent); however, it was the unholy alliance between greed and political agendas which skewed the risk and caused our problems. There ain't enough oversight in the world to preclude this--we couldn't even get a handle on Enron or Worldcom before the damage was done and these are only 2 companies.
