[TACAV]

Just out of curiosity so I can better ponder everyones responses....

When some of you say something like, "If a woman can work up to/meet/attain the same standards for standard frontline male troops then yes"
Do you mean that literally or scaled for physiological differences. For example, when I was in the police academy the physical fitness test scores for both the bare minimum passing levels and for excellent ratings were on a scale.

The numbers on the rating scale were in a preset range that was predetermined by your age and gender. No matter which way you look at it, males are built with physically stronger upper bodies for example. No insult to women, thats just how we are genetically built. And likewise there are physiological advantages that women often have over men.

For test scoring purposes, to get a passing time for a mile and a half run for example, a younger male would have to complete the same run in a faster time, do more push ups/situps, in a minute etc , than a male a couple years older. Also a male would have to do more reps or run the same distance faster than a female of similar age.

These exact rep counts and run times were based off a bunch of health, fitness studies etc. And is pretty well standardized for the purpose that it serves.

Police officers, male or female have the same amount of equipment to carry around though unlike front line troops in the military dont usually carry around 80lb rucksacks, heavy machine guns, mortar tubes, hundreds of rounds of spare ammo for the SAW, a light anti tank weapon, etc...

"According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, the average U.S. woman is 5' 3.7 tall and weighs 152 pounds.

By the way, the average U.S. male stands 5' 9.1 tall and weighs 180 pounds"

Not including aforementioned heavy lifting differences.

So if you are a front line combat unit, if you took an all male unit and totaled up the maximum weight and capacity of all the equipment they could carry and still be combat effective would it be the same or more than what an all female unit could carry and still be effective? And could they go the same distance with said factors?

Im a pretty small guy myself and I admit having me being the designated squad automatic rifleman probably wouldnt be the best allocation of resources if there were was someone bigger.

So i guess you could look at it in the way that you would have mix sex units and it would be no different than if you had a smaller male tossed in with a bunch of bigger guys if that makes any sense.

meh am I making any sense?

[HEMI]

You are, why are the standards there in the first place?
Why not drop the standards so handicapped people can join too?
These are the questions we need to ask. And be honest with our selves.

[NRAJOE]

If they want on the front line put 'em there....its their choice.

[Rave]

Quote:       Originally Posted by deputy125

does it work for Isreal?

IMO Israel is a small country with a small population,at times they may need every hand on deck.
As far as America goes my question is why would we put them there?
We certainly don't NEED them there.
Oh well,I guess it's what ever floats peoples boats.

[Seabeescotty]

Well, the tests, and the unfair advantages, are what REALLY flair my pipes. When I got out of the service, and tried to get a job, in my hometown, I was told that there were no jobs, for a guy like me. I asked the woman, who happened to be hispanic, what she meant by that. And she said they were forced by the state, to hold jobs open, for minorities. I went just a little bit haywire, over that statement! Another clerk came over to the counter, and looked at me, for a minute, and I asked what was he staring at? He finally asked if I ever served in Nam, and I said yeah, what about it? He smiled, and said there were also jobs available for vets, and led me back to his desk. Now, you might think that is pretty prejudicial, too. But you know what, those of us who wore uniforms, ended up lagging behind our peers, because of our service, and someone thought it was a nice way to thank us for serving. But to give a fella a place in med school, who has a C average, over another person, who has straight A's, based on skin color, is pretty hard to understand. This affirmative action, has gotten way out of hand, and made it perfectly okay to discriminate against anyone who isn't a minority, or female, or homosexual, or transsexual, etc. Guess who that leaves? Yeah, the average middle class white guy, who is everyone's target of opportunity. The way it looks to me, is "we" caused every bad thing in this country, according to those in charge. Make the tests equal for all, and I don't have a problem. But when I get discriminated against, just because I happen to be white, I get angry. No, I am not a bigot, and I'm not a racist, and I'm also not a molester of any sort. I'm just tired of all thew crap I've had to deal with, over the years. Is the NAACP racist? It sure looks racist to me, and if someone tried to start an organization like that to help white men, what do you think would happen? This is what I've been trying to get through to some folks. Having the same rights is fine, and I think we all have that, under the constitution. But there are some segments of this society that want SPECIAL rights, above and beyond what the rest of us have. They want privileges, disguised as rights. I'm done nnow.

[Jim Rau]

I can tell VERY few of you have been shot at, and hit and/or had to shoot back. Add to this the 'needs' of the individual to maintain their ability to fight day by day. As stated above, the physical differences can and should not be ignored. When the SHTF MOST women do not have the physical ability to 'keep' up.. They can't help you if you need it, and you have to 'help' them with their 'basic load'. True combat separates the 'men from the boys', let alone the woman!!!

[big shrek]

I dunno, I've had to haul rucksacks for the guys in my old unit who weren't quite up to snuff...or pulled dumbarse stunts like thinking they didn't "Need" water for a long hike...how many times have you had to get beside a troop and hold his pack up for him so he could go faster before you got caught? Happens more than anyone really wants to admit.

As long as one can pull their own weight & pass the PRT, let 'em go into combat. Might as well, because battle lines are not what they used to be and haven't been since Korea, civilians turn into insurgents with a blink of an eye, and even the jokers Packin' in the Back are targets in Iraq. You never know where the line will be drawn as to who has to fight, you just train 'em all and hope they shake out alright.

I feel that nobody should be in service if they can't pull the trigger when need be...but you never know just who is capable of doing it until the Fur Flies...then you know. Some folks react, some folks freeze, some run like rabbits...and there is no way to weed 'em out other than with hard training...and even THEN you still won't know until a situation goes south.

And I've definitely found that there are women that have Zero problem with pulling the trigger...or using the knife...so maybe they carry two poncho liners instead of a bedroll...so what? Maybe they drop the shelter half & junk off in favor of two ponchos...so what?

Besides, I can't think of too many guys that wouldn't let a couple of gals share a bedroll & shelter with 'em...not too many at all... it is what it is...just don't let it become a distraction.

[CopperniX]

As far as it goes for me i believe yes they should be able to, I recently returned from BCT at Fort Jackson SC. Soldier of the cycle and P.T. stud (well i guess it would be Studdess) were both females and they all carried the same amount of gear that we all did without any problems. So if its the question of if they can pull it off i totally believe they can.

[Jim Rau]

Quote:       Originally Posted by PfcDavid_Kocher

As far as it goes for me i believe yes they should be able to, I recently returned from BCT at Fort Jackson SC. Soldier of the cycle and P.T. stud (well i guess it would be Studdess) were both females and they all carried the same amount of gear that we all did without any problems. So if its the question of if they can pull it off i totally believe they can.

They are the exception, not the rule. Believe me I know this from first hand experience.
And Scotty you are 1000% correct!!!!

[Seabeescotty]

Jim, been shot at, and didn't like it much. But the friendly fire really frosted my hiney! The F4 squadron, on the other side of the base, sent a flight out, to bomb some suspected positions, but ended up coming out of the clouds, and dropping their loads on our fuel farm. The concussion screwed up a lot of eardrums, that day, mine included. It rolled thru the hooch, picked me up and slammed me into the wall on the other side of the room. Talk about a rude wake up call! I didn't serve with women, and have no opinion on that matter, but I did serve with some males, who should never have been put in a uniform!!!!!

[TXplt]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Seabeescotty

Jim, been shot at, and didn't like it much. But the friendly fire really frosted my hiney! The F4 squadron, on the other side of the base, sent a flight out, to bomb some suspected positions, but ended up coming out of the clouds, and dropping their loads on our fuel farm. The concussion screwed up a lot of eardrums, that day, mine included. It rolled thru the hooch, picked me up and slammed me into the wall on the other side of the room. Talk about a rude wake up call! I didn't serve with women, and have no opinion on that matter, but I did serve with some males, who should never have been put in a uniform!!!!!

Hitting a fuel farm sounds like a pretty gross error. It'd get my attention for sure !

Had a couple of close calls as a FAC before, but most of those were because some elements of a unit got lost and wasn't where everyone thought it was (GPS was relatively new in DS1, our battalion only had 2, and there weren't many landmarks). Night CAS anywhere near friendlies in the older days was pretty dicey, and we really tried to avoid it.

[Seabeescotty]

We heard rumors about the lead pilot's Loran being way off, what ever the heck that did. And we also heard his future as a pilot was in grave danger of being revoked. The big tank burned for four days, and gave off a wonderful odor, that kept blowing across our cantonment. Everything smelled like burned jet fuel!

[TXplt]

Ouch !!!

Sounds like someone was backpedaling for an excuse due to improper target ID.

Hopefully no one was hurt -- sounds like the guy maybe should be in another line of work as well.

[tlarkin]

I think if you are capable you should, doesn't matter what race or sex you are. If you are good at what you do then you are good at what you do and the best man/woman should be doing their job.

[Seabeescotty]

Sweet and to the point, Tlarkin. I guess that's what I was trying to say, don't lower the bar, and let unqualified people climb over the back of a more qualified individual. May the best applicant get the job, no matter what race, religion, or gender! Then I can go along with it. Double standards only cause problems, down the line, and you lose those highly qualified, highly motivated individuals, by allowing an underqualified person to go over them, by way of lower standards.

[Jim Rau]

I guess some of you just don't get it.
One example:
One fine day while setting in a hot LZ awaiting our turn to get the hell out of there (come to a hover, make a petal turn and nose it over) the bird behind us took a mortar/rocket hit. The Peter Pilot and the Gunner (right side) got the worst of it and were not ambulatory. The AC and the Crew Chief were ambulatory, just barely. I had to go back and grab the two who couldn't walk and carry them both (at the same time) while 'herding' the other two disoriented guys to our bird to get out of there. My gunner was also (right side) wounded and couldn't help. How many women could do that?? If it were you who was wounded and were helpless would you prefer to have a man or woman there to haul your sorry ass back to cover/safety?
A little real world experance goes a long why when ask hypothetical questions!!!

[TinCan Assasin]

I know plenty of female soldiers with CABs (Combat Action Badge) that prove they can hack it.

TCA

[Jim Rau]

Whatever!!!

[bellx1]

only in extreme situations...so in most situations women shouldnt be "front line" soldiers for a number of reasons.
- women arent usually as strong as men....so will they be able to keep up?
- sanitary reasons (as far as pissing, and time of month)...a recruiter told me this
-psychological reasons for male soldiers....its proven that males react differently to a woman sounding in distress, than to a male sounding in distress. Men will risk a lot to save a woman...therefore possibly compromising a mission

[bellx1]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Jim Rau

I guess some of you just don't get it. If it were you who was wounded and were helpless would you prefer to have a man or woman there to haul your sorry ass back to cover/safety?

I totally understand your logic here. Women should have the same physical standards as men in military, fire, rescue fields. I would much rather have someone rescue me who could actually pick me up and carry me out than have a woman try to carry me out and possibly fail