[danf6975]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Duck of Death

Point of clarification: You aren't "on patrol" nor were you issued a concealed weapons permit so that you can protect society. Let's not go over the edge here. If you want to assume that responsibility, you need to apply to and get hired by a police department. As a private citizen, your duty is only to protect your own life and possibly others only as a last resort. That doesn't mean that you get to seek out and engage any potential bad guy in a public place.

in fact it is forbiden in most states.
its called duty to retreat.
Doctor Dan Miller teaches law at Bethune Cookman university and he says
in most places you have a duty to retreat in public and if you do not have a duty to retreat you may still only use deadly force for the defense of life or limb of yourself or others BUT engaging another breaks another law based on firing in a public place so the only time you can fire at another in a public place is in that defense where retreating would create a risk of death. then you still have to prove that there was no other less than deadly force option left to you to survive.

the key word is survive. if they are not specifically targeting you or someone near you then you will most likely end up in jail, loosing your house because you will be sued under wrongful death ( of the badguy , by his family) and possibly have a guilty conscience because you escalated the situation and someone else died because of your actions

[Lobo0311]

Quote:       Originally Posted by danf6975

in fact it is forbiden in most states. its called duty to retreat. Doctor Dan Miller teaches law at Bethune Cookman university and he says in most places you have a duty to retreat in public and if you do not have a duty to retreat you may still only use deadly force for the defense of life or limb of yourself or others BUT engaging another breaks another law based on firing in a public place so the only time you can fire at another in a public place is in that defense where retreating would create a risk of death. then you still have to prove that there was no other less than deadly force option left to you to survive. the key word is survive. if they are not specifically targeting you or someone near you then you will most likely end up in jail, loosing your house because you will be sued under wrongful death ( of the badguy , by his family) and possibly have a guilty conscience because you escalated the situation and someone else died because of your actions

I agree that retreating probably makes more sense, however, having a great many friends at various levels of law enforcment in several states as well as 1 or two at a federal level, Its about perception. If you PERCIEVE that the individual that just walked into the local gas and grab or wherever you happen to be and started shooting, is a threat to you, you have the right to defend yourself. A person doesnt get a concealed carry permit just to be able to carry a gun, they do so with the full knowledge that the day may come where they could be in a situation where it may be necessary to use the weapon. Nowhere have I ever heard that you have to retreat, nor had any of them. If you pick up a copy of one of the NRA monthly magazines and read the "The Armed Citizen" portion you will read stories of everyday men and women who were able to defend themselves AND others, due to legally carrying a concealed weapon. The only time I can see a person being lawfully REQUIRED to retreat would be if law enforcement was already on scene. As for a guilty conscience, not me, I have no qualms whatsoever with using whatever force necessary to ensure me and mine go home at the end of the day.

[blueice]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Mooseman684

You should REFUSE to do Business with a store like that...and Yes , They own the store so they can forbid you to carry in it.... Good place to rob I would think !

<><>

Quote:       Originally Posted by XD9TAC

I don't go to places that do not allow me to carry. I got my license because I wanted an edge in a TSHF situation. No edge no me.

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Quote:       Originally Posted by Airweight38

Not only have I taken to boycotting CCH-unfriendly businesses; I've also started writing letters (not Emails) to their corporate offices explaining so. I just got a phone call Friday from Kroger Foods, recommending that I disarm and continue patronizing their stores. Needless to say that call ended on us "agreeing to disagree." It may not change anything immediately, but I can't help but think it has to get their attention.

This recently happen to me at a NotSoGoodYear dealer...I told the manger on the way out, that as long as that decal was on the front door, I will not be back...

I plan to email their corporate office, also..

Quote:       Originally Posted by JohnnyRebel

I wouldn't do business with a place like that but I believe it is their right to not have firearms on their property if they choose that.

Agree with this statement completely...Property rights trump gun rights - always...

Quote:       Originally Posted by TexasT

Seeing a silhouette means it's no longer concealed and you could get in trouble and lose your CCW for that.

This maybe true, Maoistsota....The violation for not leaving a DNCC store is a petty misdemeanor, with a $25.oo fee....
This does not coverage any outdoor area, such as a parking lot..

In addition, the violator may also be charged with trespassing, which is MHO...

BTW, I rarely see those signs on a bank's front door...

[Powderman]

Quote:       Originally Posted by just_a_car

Actually, it depends on the laws of your state or locality. Here in Washington State, signage carries no weight of law. If they have a no weapons/firearms sign, they may certainly trespass you and if you stay or come back, you can be charged with trespassing, but you can't be charged with trespassing for violating the sign. I've heard that in some states, though, the sign Does carry the weight of law and you can be charged with trespassing. So, the main thing to do is to check your laws. You may want to take a look at the relevant state forum over on opencarry.org, where they deal with this stuff all the time. Oh, and just in case you think I'm promoting going into those stores... I "moderate" the Do Not Patronize list for WA State on OCDO.

??!!

Kewl!

Could you PM me with a list of those stores and organizations that are on the "Do Not Patronize" list? It's good stuff to know, and I want to support businesses that support the RKBA.

[Lobo0311]

I know in Kansas Companies can get the No guns signs ( look like no smoking with the obvious change), or there's also one to advertise that guns are welcome ( simply a green circle with a pistol in the center). To the best of my knowledge if neither sign is posted concealed carry is legal. Kansas also does NOT generally prohibit open carry, a friend of mine recently said he was considering beginning to openly carry his kimber SIS pistol. I told him that while thats his right under Kansas law, most LEO's are not aware of that fact, I told him it would save him time and some less than happy memories if he just got his CCW permit. I for one would prefer NOT having to answer any LEO questions at gunpoint.

[gunnut2u]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Airweight38

Not only have I taken to boycotting CCH-unfriendly businesses; I've also started writing letters (not Emails) to their corporate offices explaining so. I just got a phone call Friday from Kroger Foods, recommending that I disarm and continue patronizing their stores. Needless to say that call ended on us "agreeing to disagree." It may not change anything immediately, but I can't help but think it has to get their attention.

You should of ask Kroger that if you disarm and continue to patronize their business, are they going to give you free groceries? I'm sure that would of ended the conversation too..

[BunnyWabbit]

Dillons Grocery Stores in NE Kansas (owned by Krogers) do not have the signs, only the banks inside the stores do, and technically, you aren't in the bank when you go to their counter. I just make sure I don't sit my purse on their counter.

[WannaBeGunsmith]

BunnyWabbit, I could not help my self from laughing at your signature. That is absolutely awesome. Reminds me of my mother

[BunnyWabbit]

It's a good thing to be reminded of mom. And, it's good to have a feisty mom.

[twtalbot]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Lobo0311

...Nowhere have I ever heard that you have to retreat, nor had any of them. ...

Fortunately, in Louisiana, there is no "duty to retreat" as long as the person defending himself is in "any place he has a right to be". We are also one of those states that have actually codified the "castle doctrine". It is legal for us to use deadly force to stop a forced entry into our "occupied" home or vehicle whether we know the intruder is armed or not. The effort to force entry is sufficient to prove self defense.

[Ten Man]

Every gun owner has a choice: either exercise their Rights or not.

Being militant about it does not win friends or influence enemies positively.

If you carry CONCEALED, no one but you should know. THAT is why it is called CONCEALED CARRY.

If you don't like the laws in your area, you have a couple choices: exercise your Rights regardless of the laws, move, obey the laws anyway, get the laws changed, or PO the businesses.

Of all those choices, POing the business is the least likely to do you or anyone else any good. They DO NOT CARE about your take on their policy. They are in business to make a profit, and as long as their corporate headquarters thinks they are making the most profit they can, they will not change their policy. The majority of their profits come from fleecing the sheeple, NOT from a few gun owners, militant or otherwise.

K-Mart is a perfect example. They POd the gun owners. The gun owners boycotted their stores. K-Mart did not change their anti-gun Policies. K-Mart is still in business.

[danf6975]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Lobo0311

I agree that retreating probably makes more sense, however, having a great many friends at various levels of law enforcment in several states as well as 1 or two at a federal level, Its about perception. If you PERCIEVE that the individual that just walked into the local gas and grab or wherever you happen to be and started shooting, is a threat to you, you have the right to defend yourself. A person doesnt get a concealed carry permit just to be able to carry a gun, they do so with the full knowledge that the day may come where they could be in a situation where it may be necessary to use the weapon. Nowhere have I ever heard that you have to retreat, nor had any of them. If you pick up a copy of one of the NRA monthly magazines and read the "The Armed Citizen" portion you will read stories of everyday men and women who were able to defend themselves AND others, due to legally carrying a concealed weapon. The only time I can see a person being lawfully REQUIRED to retreat would be if law enforcement was already on scene. As for a guilty conscience, not me, I have no qualms whatsoever with using whatever force necessary to ensure me and mine go home at the end of the day.

its about the law and what a jury perceives using the reasonable man theory . and many states have a duty to retreat.
our perceptions are not a shield or excuse in a court of law and niether is ignorance. that is why your local and state laws must be heeded .

btw in most states LEO do not fall into this above situation as they are held to a different set of laws as per state doctrines .


basically you have to learn your state laws and then you can act according to what the law says which in many states will not allow you to even draw your weapon unless you or someone around you is in mortal danger .

remember there are also 2 kinds of court ( 3 if you where contract security) you have to worry about.
in fact its where most people have problems.
a jury can easily side with you in a criminal court or even against you but the judge can decide your actions" where in the spirit of the law" and you may not be punished but then you have civil law to deal with in which case there is a much higher chance you will loose because they will view each and every millisecond of your actions and judgments you made under a microscope and will find you negligent .

believe me when i say , if you have never been in a court room for either , you just dont know stress .
some would even say it was more stressfull than the firing of your firearm in the situation that landed you on those hard wooden chairs

[Lobo0311]

^ And in my home stae of Kansas I have the right under the law to defend myself, the perception I was talking about was the perception of threat NOT perception of law. I'm glad I live in a state that recognizes my right to defend myself and my family, If I am in a location and LAWFULLY carrying a firearm and someone comes in and starts shooting the perception would be that my life and that of my family is in danger therefore givbing me the right to act accordingly. If you think that local Law Enforcement is all the protection you need, you are sadly mistaken. The average robbery takes less than 5 minutes the average response time for Law Enforcement and Paramedics is 10 to 15 minutes, the down side to that is that in most areas Paramedics, who are responding to shots fired type scenarios, cannot enter the scene to render aid until LEO's have cleared the building. Long and short I'll continue exercising my 2nd amendment right to "keep AND bear arms" If someone enters the store I'm shopping in and starts shooting I'm going to shoot back, PERIOD. I believe in the philosophy that it is far better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. Maybe someday a normal citizen will protect you and yours, since this is obviously what it'll take for you to see the light.

[Redbeernuts]

A sign does not make it illegal to carry. That sign put up by a private company is NOT a law. I don't care what state you live in. You don't go to jail by breaking store policy.

[mtncrash1]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Redbeernuts

A sign does not make it illegal to carry. That sign put up by a private company is NOT a law. I don't care what state you live in. You don't go to jail by breaking store policy.

Not sure what other states laws are but here in Nebraska if the sign is posted as stated in the law you can be charged with a firearms violation. Most likely not go to jail but quite possibly loose your ccw and right to purchase because of the violation. I agree that you most likely wont go to jail however before making a statement like that maybe you should check some of the state laws.

[sbrown2609]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Airweight38

Not only have I taken to boycotting CCH-unfriendly businesses; I've also started writing letters (not Emails) to their corporate offices explaining so. I just got a phone call Friday from Kroger Foods, recommending that I disarm and continue patronizing their stores. Needless to say that call ended on us "agreeing to disagree." It may not change anything immediately, but I can't help but think it has to get their attention.

here in wv (at least in b'ville and huntington) i can carry my weapon in kroger and pretty much any buisness that doesn't have the sign, (most don't) and of course gov buildings. and schools but that's kewl. i carry everywhere i go and no problems yet.

[twtalbot]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Redbeernuts

A sign does not make it illegal to carry. That sign put up by a private company is NOT a law. I don't care what state you live in. You don't go to jail by breaking store policy.

By violating store policy the worst that can happen is to be asked to leave. Failing to leave can get me escorted away by police and cited for trespassing. My concealed handgun is concealed, so it's never been an issue.

[danf6975]

Quote:       Originally Posted by twtalbot

By violating store policy the worst that can happen is to be asked to leave. Failing to leave can get me escorted away by police and cited for trespassing. My concealed handgun is concealed, so it's never been an issue.

actually for tresspassing you only get a warning the first time unless it was felony tresspass ( for the first time only keep in mind)

[Cohn]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Mooseman684

You should REFUSE to do Business with a store like that...and Yes , They own the store so they can forbid you to carry in it.... Good place to rob I would think !

The DMV over here has a sign that says no weapons...

Hard not to do business with them

[Lobo0311]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Cohn

The DMV over here has a sign that says no weapons... Hard not to do business with them

Yes but the DMV is a government building, and as far as I know NO state allows carrying in government facilities.