[OldPaladin]

Hi, I have two 3"bbl/3"cylinder blue Judges, as well as one 3"/2.5"cylinder SS Judge. All three have 5rds of Federal Premium Self Defense 2.5" 000 Buck shotshells, with reloads of 255gr SWC carried in HKS speed loaders.

Is there anybody that's done a comparison testing for optimum shotshell/bullet ammo? I'm primarily interested in 3" 00 Buck, 3" slug, or 255gr SWC/SWCHP ammo... Maximum damage with "moderate" range, i.e., 21 feet range... As Clint Smith says, "A handgun is what you use, to get back to the rifle or shotgun, you shouldn't have put down..."

Thanks, in advance, for your input...

OldPaladin, out...

[JMcDonald]

I would definately go with the buck. The 2.5" shelled 000 buckshot pellets have been clocked at about 900fps IIRC from the 3" judge. That is about like three .380 FMJs.

The 3" versions with five pellets only put them out at something like 700fps. Still, penetration wouldnt be an issue against soft or plain-closed targets, and you'd naturally probably get more devastation.

And, at close ranges I think the several inches of spread would also be very helpful.

[OldPaladin]

Hi, JMcDonald,

I really appreciate you input. Usually I carry either a Beretta M9A1 or a Kimber Desert Warrior. Lately I've been concerned with the up-tick in carjackings in the cities. The Judge is a much easier alternative to having shell casings bouncing around the car's interior, but I'd guess I'd be just as deaf, and the "other guy," just as dead, whatever was used...

Again, "Thanks!"

OldPaladin, out...

[TXplt]

Quote:       Originally Posted by OldPaladin

Hi, I have two 3"bbl/3"cylinder blue Judges, as well as one 3"/2.5"cylinder SS Judge. All three have 5rds of Federal Premium Self Defense 2.5" 000 Buck shotshells, with reloads of 255gr SWC carried in HKS speed loaders. Is there anybody that's done a comparison testing for optimum shotshell/bullet ammo? I'm primarily interested in 3" 00 Buck, 3" slug, or 255gr SWC/SWCHP ammo... Maximum damage with "moderate" range, i.e., 21 feet range... As Clint Smith says, "A handgun is what you use, to get back to the rifle or shotgun, you shouldn't have put down..." Thanks, in advance, for your input... OldPaladin, out...

I don't see a good use for the slugs due to the Colt being far superior--maybe in some limited penetration scenarios or just fun target shooting.

Like everything else, you want to tailor the ammo to the expected threat and situation.

I don't know that I'd put the colts in speedloaders in that you may well not have a chance to reload. I'd consider alternating buckshot and .45 Colt rounds for general self-defense. I use either the Buffalo Bore Heavy Standard Pressure .45 LC 200 Grain Gold Dot or 255 Grain Keith.

The buckshot is a nasty round, but might have penetration problems; especially against a heavily clothed or hopped up on drugs perp. The Colts won't.

I'd also consider depending on your situation going 1x#4 Birdshot, 1 buckshot, Colt, Colt, Buck for general use as well--this gives you a wide shot pattern for critters in the first shot (or at least getting some kind of point and shoot hit on the target given surprise or bad environmentals) followed by the heavier stuff. Yes, birdshot has problems but at extreme close range the point and shoot factor might help.

Good luck.

[JMcDonald]

They are roughly equivalent in diameter and slightly less in weight than a .380acp. A .380ACP FMJ will easily penetrate to a good 20" in ballistics gel (probably more; that is a conservative estimate based on testing in 16" blocks). I did a lot of reading (including some articles by Elmer Keith), and found that penetration is almost linearly related to mass. Thus, if a 95gr bullet of a given diameter can penetrate to 20"+, then a 70gr ball will penetrate to a little less than 75% of that distance, which is still about 14-15."

And, they are moving about 100fps faster than the aforementioned 95gr .380acp loads:

95gr Federal American Eagle FMJ and 95gr Winchester 'WWB' truncated cone

[TXplt]

Quote:       Originally Posted by JMcDonald

They are roughly equivalent in diameter and slightly less in weight than a .380acp. A .380ACP FMJ will easily penetrate to a good 20" in ballistics gel (probably more; that is a conservative estimate based on testing in 16" blocks). I did a lot of reading (including some articles by Elmer Keith), and found that penetration is almost linearly related to mass. Thus, if a 95gr bullet of a given diameter can penetrate to 20"+, then a 70gr ball will penetrate to a little less than 75% of that distance, which is still about 14-15." And, they are moving about 100fps faster than the aforementioned 95gr .380acp loads: 95gr Federal American Eagle FMJ and 95gr Winchester 'WWB' truncated cone

You might find that the buck doesn't do quite this well in practice--the Box O Truth did find some penetration problems but also didn't use buck exactly like it's currently in production. They had some strange flattening out problems which is tough to describe. Suffice it to say good data on exactly how the buckshot performs in the field with either birdshot or 000 isn't there. Bird, buck, or colts with a hit would certainly deter the crime of opportunity--how the first two would work against a dedicated adversary is anyone's guess and would depend greatly on the situation.

The buckshot might not be leaving that 3" bbl as fast as you think--probably 800 to 950 FPS. Nothing to scoff at and fairly formidibie, but I have to ask myself if I'd want only that, or want a couple of colts as well before reloading which I probably won't have a chance to do. The choice for me is obvious.

Yes, you're usually not being attacked by water jugs and pine boards but I do have some concerns with .410 000 buck and that's certainly why I'd also include some .45 colt rounds in the cylinder. Again it's your choice.

I'd also be careful extrapolating/using books or calculations to find bullet performance because this doesn't always work too well--bullets do unpredictible things in practice sometimes. I certainly wouldn't expect to get over a foot of penetration with the buckshot but maybe I'm wrong.

[SgtKnuckles]

TXplt,...
I always like it when a Gunner Brings Up the "The Box O' Truth's" faulty TEST...<:-))

"The Box O' Truth" REBUT... 2-1/2" Chamber "JUDGE"
I own "The Judge" ~ Like "The Judge" ~ And Never Tried To Get Anybody To Buy "The Judge"

I don't expect you to believe what I have to SAY... Soooooo, I always Backup with Reputable LINKS & VIDEO CLIPS from Web Sites of People you all Trust...

I'm dumping more food for thought on you than the Old Fart did... The right Bullet for your Guns is always about what you plan on using it for...

I read "The Box O' Truth" web site all the time... and finding the same Disturbing thing in most tests... Not a vary good analysis of the Physics of what's happening in the test... I'm not disputing any of the data that was accumulated during the test... But, the data is just dumped in a pile, for the reader to make his own assumptions...<:-((
The testing is weak, and the analysis sucks as usual...

1) Penetration. the FBI's 12" Gel FPE rule is used to reference a rounds ability to penetrate windshields, and car doors in Gun fights, stopping the BadGuy... (me and you would normally come up against Shirts & Jackets in Self Defence situations) If it was all about penetration, we would all be using FMJ's...
The Experts Say ~ Read the Info in this PDF file: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
Also Read this: Here is two pages of Bullet Basics http://www.firearmsid.com/Bullets/bullet1.htm

2) Now in this Link you will see that to shoot a BadGuy the Cops use Special Soft Hollow Points when shooting the BadGuy so as to get 100% of the Bullets energy into the BadGuy (a shoot through is wasted energy)... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566215/De-Menezes-shot-with-special-bullets.html

3) The Test: 45LC... 14 1/2" Nice... But, it traveled 2 1/2" beyond the FBI 12" rule (a shootthrough Shot) 20% energy lost because there was to much penetration... The BadGuy did not absorb 100% of the Bullets energy... ( the old fart did say that it was a bad Bullet. What he meant, was that the bullet didn't slow down enough to stop by the Sacred 12"... Now lets expand on this a little. As seen in the GEL test in this Link: Gel testing the .32 ACP http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm A little .32 can get 15" penetration...!!!

4) The Test: OOO BuckShot... Lets clear up some more bad info & analysis... First off a OOO Buck ball is .360 not the .340 that was stated, check this Link: http://everything2.com/title/shotgun%2520shot%2520sizes and the next info that had No analysis was as follows... That "little .410" round in OOO Buckshot (3 balls) is roughly equivalent to Three rounds of 9mm - simultaneously delivered... The 9mm pistol may be criticized for a lack of stopping power, but there's no doubt that three .360 caliber balls delivered simultaneously packs a serious wallop...<:-)) Now lets talk about the 4 1/2" of penetration of that Buck Ball, X 3 = 13 1/2" of penetration, and expanded to 45cal or more as seen in the test, and 100% of the energy absorbed by the BadGuy... Now how about that 4 1/2"... Put your finger on your chest, and think 4 1/2" deep... 4 1/2" puts 1 ball in each Lung, and 1 in the Heart using the Spacing, and Depth that was shown in the Test... I agree that I would like to see at least 2" more penetration, just for good measure... Yup, Dead soft lead balls...<:-(( This is a problem that was reveiled in the test... I must check my OOO Buck Winchesters to see if they use Chilled Hardened Lead Balls...???

5) The Test: .410 Slug... why would you... The gun shoots 45LC's out to a 100 yards, D'oh... My range test says all you need to know...

6) The Test: #6 bird shot... Don't get hit in the Face with it at 5 feet... BadGuy would die almost instantly from a brain shot through the eye sockets...

7) My own Range test below gives some general AMMO info... I actually tested a Full range of AMMO for the Judge... You can Buy every Size .410 Shot shells on the web... I did...!!!

~Lets answer another Question: +P But Not +P+
This is from page 4 of the Taurus catalog: +P RATED FOR DUTY USE®
All Taurus handguns are engineered to accept a steadydiet of factory-new Plus-P (+P) ammunition built to SAAMI specifications. This includes the Ultra-Lite hammer forged aluminum alloys, Titanium, blue steel and stainless steel models. Rest assured, your Taurus will be ready, especially when you’re counting on it.
Note: +P rounds are only a Messily-A$$ 10% to 12% Higher Pressure than standard rounds... That's way lower than the Lawyer Certified Safe Frame Pressure...!!! Certified Windshield Penetraitor Cop Rounds are +P+... If You want to shoot "Beefy" +P+ rounds, Buy yourself Cop Duty Rated Carry Guns... Bonus... you get 25,000 round to burn-out Barrels on the Cop Duty Rated Carry Guns, same as Military Carry Guns...

Why is it that every time I go to "The Box O' Truth" web site I think of this LINK...???
http://blog.danshamptons.com/entertainment/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/chock2.jpg

~Will the Judge Shoot out through a closed car window if need be is the Question~
Well you Know "The Number "ONE" Rule of Gun Self-Defense"~If you have to use your Gun in a Fight or DIE situation, and you have decided to "Protect and Defend", You always take "TWO" quick Shots... NOT just one test shot...!!! Now you re-adjust your aim, and empty your Gun if needed... Make's the Window situation a Moot Point, (no window on second split second shot)...

NOTE: The Judge is a Meat Grinder Plain and Simple... You can empty the Gun in just under Two Seconds (1 1/2) "Using the NEW Federal HandGun Defense Rounds" That would put 20 000 Buck on target (same as 20 9mm's) and really mess up a BG's day...!!! Point and Shoot Babe~Point and Shoot Babe... Theres no place for a BG to hide from an instant Barrage like that...!!!
NOTE: A 9mm is .355 Dia. ~ The Judge puts 20 of them size .360 Balls on Target in under "2" Seconds...!!! That's faster than a 9mm Auto can get "Less" rounds down the TUBE...

Range Report... "THE JUDGE"
This Gun has a Medium Frame ~ It's just a Puppy ~ hehehe...<:-))

Ahhhhhh, the Smell of Black Powder Burning in the Morning... "S W E E T" ...<:-))

I said that I would get to the Range, and shoot all the listed AMMO...
Well I did, and I will tell you what I liked...

1) Black Dawge's Black Powder~Most Fun you can have at the Range shooting Double Action as fast as you can empty that Wheel... Just like a Cannon... A column of Smoke rolls out there about 10 feet, and a foot in Diameter... hehehe Cool...<:-))
2) SilverTip Hollow Points~These were most accurate... I think the Jacket took the rifling the Best...<:-)) It's a Killer... You know I will have two of these in Hole #4 & #5 of that Wheel...<:-))
3) 7 1/2 & 6's Shot Winchester Super X HS~Snakes aren't going to like these...!!!...<:-))
4) 4 Shot Winchester Super X HS~Bad Guy won't like these...!!! Good Pattern & Damn near went through a 2x4...Maybe some did...!!! OUCH...!!!...<:-))
5) OOO BuckShot (.360)(3 Balls) ~ These are down right Killers, for Home Defense... Just Point and Shoot... not Aim and Shoot...<:-)) I feel a little tingle Knowing what these Babe's will do...<:-))
6) Rifled SLUG Hollow Points~Absolutely useless in this gun... The Gun don't shoot them... It Spits them... Hyper Fast~97Gr.~Don't touch the Rifling~some of them Key-Holing...
7) Nickel John Wayne's~Nice Big Bang... 250Gr. ... You know it's Deadly...
8) RNFP ULTRAMAX~Nice light shooter... You could shoot this all day at targets, and the Lady's Like this one the Best...
9) A-MERC~Good general Round... It will Kill anything you Hit With It...<:-))

AMMO List:
45 Colt 250 Gr. LFN Winchester Nickel John Wayne's
45 Colt 200 Gr. RNFP ULTRAMAX
45 Colt 250 Gr. RNL A-MERC
45 Colt 235 Gr. RNFP GEOX Black Dawge's Black Powder
45 Colt 225 Gr. Winchester SilverTip Hollow Points +P Super X

.410 HighBrass 7 1/2 Shot Winchester Super X HS
.410 HighBrass 6 Shot Winchester Super X HS
.410 HighBrass 4 Shot Winchester Super X HS
.410 HighBrass OOO BuckShot (3 Balls) Winchester Super X HS
.410 HighBrass Rifled SLUG Hollow Points Winchester Super X HS

[OldPaladin]

SgtKnuckles,

Thank-you, Sir, for the great write-up... For short range, IMMEDIATE armed response, the shotgun, whatever length, is a great choice. Since my "regular" shotguns are not concealable, these will certainly do...

Again, my thanks...

OldPaladin, out...

[TXplt]

Thanks for the post, Sgt Knuckles ! As I've posted before, I take the Box as just one more data point, one which is neither worth betting eveything on nor ignoring.

I consider the 000 buckshot as a very good defensive choice, but for me am unwilling to bet the farm on a cylinder of these--expecially if the potential threat might be someone in heavy clothing hopped up on something. I think it ideal to alternate Buck and Colt rounds for many situations (or go bird, buck colt) to ensure I have the .45LC available to me and as the next shot out of the gun. If I do this, I still get 9 (or 12 with the Federals if I ever find any) 000 buck and 2 .45 LC on a target. If you practice shot followed up by follow up shot and score hits this gives you both buck and a .45 LC. I see the 000 more as 3x .380s but still formidible and creating a very nasty defensive weapon. But penetration I see as still an issue from the relatively light and soft 000 buck (I think in practice you're likely to see a farily nasty wound channel but not the 3x4=12--more like a little over 4-8" due to the synergistic effect followed by a rapid energy dump--yes it's great to get the energy dump but I don't know exactly what kind of target I'm going to face.

As far as +P's; like I've said have at it but I shy away from these in my Taurus (especially my ultra lite). The Buffalo Bore standard pressure heavy .45 Colt are plenty enough for me -- the 200 grain Gold Dot is pretty awesome, and the Keith moves pretty quick as well.

Cheers

[SgtKnuckles]

TXplt,... I hear what your saying... BUT...

The Rating for 000 is vary definitive about what size Game it is for... I personally don't know any Humans as Big as ELK...YIKES...<:-)) The New Federal HandGun Judge .410 2-1/2" 000 4 Copper Plated Balls (more Penetration), moving 1200 FPS at close Range, says one thing "It's A Grim Reaper Cartridge"...YUP...

#000 BUCK .360" dia. — The largest of all buckshot sizes, this is meant for deer and elk.
http://everything2.com/title/shotgun%2520shot%2520sizes

[blat]

SgtK, I've been trying to locate some of that Fed 410 Handgun load for months. Do you know where some is?
Federal finally stopped even answering my emails about it; you'd think some one with an ounce of sense would be eager to make and sell a popular product!
Same as Taurus, themselves; after 2 mos. trying, I've given up on ever getting a response from them on a Judge problem.

[SgtKnuckles]

blat,... Federal HandGun Judge .410 2-1/2" 000~the only way your going to get some at this time is to get on a list at your Local Dealer, and have him hold some for you when he gets some in...<:-((

~Broke Dick Judge's~
~You can have a Taurus Dealer send it USPS® Priority Mail Cheaper than you can Personally ship it... Check, and see who's Cheaper... Call your Dealer Up...
~Note: The best way is to get a FFL Dealer to do it for you as they can send a complete handgun via USPS Priority Mail for less than $15.

~UPS OR Fedex is going to charge about $35 to $40 "Saver Over Night"...

~Taurus SHIPPING INSTRUCTIONS~
http://www.taurususa.com/main/repair-policy-shipping.cfm

[JMcDonald]

TXplt, I think you might be overestimating the deformation of the pellets.

Winchester 3 inch 5 pellet buck

That is the 3" buck load from an 18" barrel. MV is about 1100fps. Penetration is 18". If deformation did occur at those velocities, it didn't look like it hurt much. Taking off a mere 200fps would not cause a very drastic drop in penetration. Like I said, it would probably only drop penetration down to about 15-16".

I'm not saying its perfect by any means, but for a large majority of close-range attacks I'd imagine the 2.5" buck load would do better than most common defensive loads. Still, it wouldn't be unjustified to follow up two or three buck loads with perhaps two or three hot .45lcs. Though, me personally I'd probably rather practice following up with head shots and keep buck in all five holes.

[blat]

Quote:       Originally Posted by SgtKnuckles

blat,... Federal HandGun Judge .410 2-1/2" 000~the only way your going to get some at this time is to get on a list at your Local Dealer, and have him hold some for you when he gets some in...<:-(( ~Broke Dick Judge's~ ~You can have a Taurus Dealer send it USPS® Priority Mail Cheaper than you can Personally ship it... Check, and see who's Cheaper... Call your Dealer Up... ~Note: The best way is to get a FFL Dealer to do it for you as they can send a complete handgun via USPS Priority Mail for less than $15. ~UPS OR Fedex is going to charge about $35 to $40 "Saver Over Night"... ~Taurus SHIPPING INSTRUCTIONS~ http://www.taurususa.com/main/repair-policy-shipping.cfm

Thanks. I'm on Able Ammo's list for the Fed. They're the only ones I could find who even catalogued it; this was about a month ago.
As for the Judge problem, I fixed it myself; but I never heard from Taurus so they COULD receive my gun for repair.
The one that gave locking trouble was a 6.5" ss. I traded for a 3" (barrel) blue Judge, and it does fine on all counts.

[carttaurus]

Sir Sgt. Knuckles Sir:

You recommend the Wincheser Super X #4 and #6 shots. I purchased a box of
Winchester Super Speed Xtra #6 shotshells at Walmart for $8.67. The Super X
HS list velocity of 1245 fps while the Super Speed Xtra Game Loads list a velocity of
1275 fps. The major benefit of the Super X HS is to be it can be reloaded unlike
the Super Speed Xtra. Wouldn't the Super Speed Xtra Game Loads in #4 be a
more suitable SD Load?

[Taurus Fan]

Slugs are a bad idea, they only weigh 90 grains or so, the .45 Colt would be much, much better. Also aren't 410 slugs 39-40 cal? Accuracy would be poor I'd think, so would velocity. A 40 cal, 90 grain slug at ?? velocity would be an anemic little thing.

[blat]

I guess the velocities quoted on 410 shells is from a shotgun; they seem to actually run quite a bit slower from the Judge. But the Federal Defense loads made for the gun, are quoted at higher velocities in the Judge; I'd like to get some of these-- I've been on a waiting list for a long time now!

[littleman]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Taurus Fan

Slugs are a bad idea, they only weigh 90 grains or so, the .45 Colt would be much, much better. Also aren't 410 slugs 39-40 cal? Accuracy would be poor I'd think, so would velocity. A 40 cal, 90 grain slug at ?? velocity would be an anemic little thing.

Probably not the best load, right. But, they're better than nothing. If I decide to carry my Judge on occasion, I've about decided to load 5 45 LC's; and leave the 410's for around the house.

[Boba Debt]

I have a 3" blued Magnum with the non fluted chamber on order and I have already started to stock up on ammo.

I found some 5 round packs of 3" Winchester Super X in 000 Buck for $7.99, I hope that's a good price since I plan to buy 10 boxes of it.

I'm still looking for some 45LC though.

[Boba Debt]

I just hit the jack pot

I found some 5 round packs of 3" Winchester Super X in 000 Buck for $5.99

They had 17 boxes and told me I could buy them all but I just bought 10 of them