As an old timer, I see a lot of plain ole BULL$#!+ about the topic of which "mods" a combat 1911 needs.
Mind you, I am not an "expert' on weaponcraft. Nor am I a highly respected gunsmith. I am just a guy who spent most of his life studying weaponry and using it for enjoyment and on an occassion or two in self defense.
My comments are based on reality, not theory or what works good in matches. I don't tote a gun to win matches or make other people admire me or to be "tacticool." I am old enough to remember when Tactics were WHAT YOU DID not what you bought.
As time has marched on, I have seen a lot of crap bolted onto the venerable old 1911. Some of it looked cool. Some of it looked idiotic. Most of it was 100 percent worthless. Some of it actually DETRACTED from the proper functioning of the gun.
I don't know about you, but I would rather be able to thumb cock the gun for a second hit on a hard primer than eject it on the range. Can't do that with the super popular "Duck's @$$" grip safety as Jeff Cooper DISPARINGLY referred to it.
When I was a young man, we often would rack the 1911 by shoving the muzzle plug down on the corner of a table, or hooking the rear sight on something. You can't do that with those Evel Kneival Motorcycle Jumping Ramp style sights or full length guide rod.
(Something that somebody made the folks at KIMBER aware of when they came out with the SIS model).
Years ago, when many of you fellas were still in diapers and buster browns, Jeff Cooper the guy who knew more about the 1911 than you and I and any gamesman alive ever will, wrote that the most important things you needed on a fighting
'custom' 1911 were:
•Good trigger
•Good sights
• Press fitted firing pin stop
•Staked on plunger tube
•polished and throated feed ramp
•Tuned ejector.
And that was pretty much it. Extended speed safety too, if you needed it.
When the original Gunsight Service Pistols made on Springfield Armoury and Auto Ordnance base pistols came out, that's what they had, along with rubber stocks from Hogue.
Since that time, we have seen gunsmiths go crazy with overdone sights, overdone safeties and overdone everything, while ignoring the important stuff that affects a gun's functioning.
If you extractor doesn't work, your gun will jam.
If you firing pin stop plate falls lose, your gun will not fire.
If your plunger tube flies off, your gun will become unsafe.
How many of these problems with the 1911 are addressed by the Loaded Springfields, the new Kimbers and other guns that tout all the bells and whistles that are popular now and quite common?
(Kudos to Para Ordnance for their ramped barrels and power extractors!)
Ironically as an old timer and a fan of the GI version of the 1911, the front cocking serations are the only modern "refinement" I approve of.
Yeah, they are hell on holsters, but it makes press checking the gun much more secure and easy.
Is it needed? Not really. But its more useful than the Big Beavertail grip safety or the two peice guide rod or any of the other common "adornments" that bastardize what was once a great combat weapon.
Pretty much all of the other "refinements" are not refinements at all. Its just junk gunsmiths cobbled together to seperate a fool from their money.
If your gun has a good trigger and good sights it doesn't need the rest.
The reality is most claims of "hammer bite" can be solved by taking the sharp edges off the grip safety and not choking down so much on the grip. Over a decade ago Chuck Taylor noted that hammer bite was usually a sharp edge on a grip safety, not from the hammer. I agree. I have large, loose, fleshy hands and never get hammer bite from a 1911. (Hi power is a different story).
But then again, when I fire my 1911s, I keep my thumb down the way the the thumb was DESIGNED to work. In addition to giving me a stronger grasp, it doesn't make me look foolish, as if I am hitchhiking.
The conehead hammer, the big ducks hind end grip safety and the overdone thumb safety and mag chutes were all invented by gunsmiths who realized their is a "Certain kind of Fool" to borrow a phrase from the Eagles, who wasn't satisfied by trigger jobs, press fitted firing pin stops and pinned down ejector tubes all of which are useful mods, because nobody COULD SEE THESE INTERNAL MODIFICATIONS which were SOLEY DESIGNED TO IMPROVE RELIABILTIY AND FUNCTION of the gun.
But you could see a commander hammer and grip safety on a gun and your fellow shooters would know you had a 'custom' gun.
And isn't envy what keeps the custom gun marketplace going, after all?
So smiths started doing that in the 70s....
In those days the common mods were K frame adjustable sites, Commander hammers and grip safeties.
Next thing you know, trigger guards were being dished out and squared off, thumb safeties got extended and the spade style grip safety came along.
The spade wasn't too far gone to be useless, like the later ducks hind end beavertail grip safety. At least the spade did not interfere with cocking or decockign the gun. And it did not poke so hard into the old love handle. That seems to be the primary function of the current Big Beaver grip safety. To poke your love handle with that upturned swoop.
When manufacturers started putting some of this stuff on their guns (like the enhanced Colts) what did the gunsmiths do? The spade safety became the big swooping Beavertail almost as overdone as Superman's spit curl, the rear sight became a motorcycle ramp and the commander hammer got hogged out and woodpeckers went to work drilling holes in the trigger.
What is so funny to somebody who KNOWS the 1911 is that even as manufacturers got in on this game sticking this USELESS CRAP and let me repeat that so you will understand that it is truly USELESS CRAP on the venerable and abused old 1911, None of the guns actual flaws were addressed.
Before any Me Tooists or trendoids have a fit, answer me this question.
How many of your boys with your big beaver grip safeties, evel kneeival motorcycle ramp sites and swooping extended thumb safeties and guide rods have your firing pin stop plate press fitted? How many of you have your plunger tube staked on.
Class? Class? Anyone? Buehler????
How many have had your exractor properly tensioned?
Reality check time my friends. None of the stuff that depraved, dollar hungry machinists have come up with to seperate the fool from his money is worth carrying home, let alone installing on your piece.
The most important things you can do to your peice- making sure the extractor is properly tensioned, press fitting the firing pin stop and staking the ejector tube is IGNORED by these guys in their never ending quest to seperate the fool from his money.
None of the popular 'enhancements' is worth wasting a nickel on.
If you carry cocked and locked, the hammer spur on a GI gun won't catch on anything any more than the swell, nifty modern conehead hammers do.
If you grip the gun properly and keep your thumb DOWN when firing, not up like you are hitching a ride with Sammy Johns in his Chevy Van, you won't get any hammer bite...not to mention that the GI grip safety won't gouge your side as bad as the big Beaver.
Nobody ever lost a gunfight or a match because they didn't have three holes drilled in their trigger or a non-GI guiderod.
People have lost matches when their firing pin stop fell downwards.
All of the modern enhancements are pretty much worthless except for the front cocking serrations.
It's your money. Spend it how you want. But before you do spend it ask yourself, "am I spending money on something I need to improve my basic safety, or am I just doing this to be on the trendy bandwagon?"
For the cost of a set of aftermarket sites or an overdone beavertail an old school smith can press fit your firing pin stop and stake on your plunger and make sure your extractor is properly tensioned.
Thats worth spending money on.
Being trendy is not.
While I agree that there are mechanical corrections that should be addressed first, I see no reason not to "customize" your 1911 to look and operate as you wish. After all, as long as it does not detract from function, what's a little embellishment ??
__________________ I keep tellin ya Doc, I'm in pretty good shape considerin the shape I'm in !!
I agree with both Colonel Cooper and Steve. If I were having a custom M1911 made up, the only additions I'd make to the Colonel's list would be a slightly larger beavertail even though the slide on my Llama Model IX-A has never bitten me; and the addition of Crmson Trace Lasergrips. But I feel the most important thing of all is to have really good sights installed.
wow, would you also like to tell me how i should have my steak cooked? using auto ordnance as reference of how a good pistol comes from the factory is just wrong!
Ya know what sunwheel29, if YOU don't like that stuff and don't want it on your 1911's, that's all fine and dandy. That's your right and you're entitled to your opinions about them. But you don't have the right, or reason, to rant at the rest of us about OUR choices and opinions. YOU don't like that stuff, don't buy it. The rest of us have the right to do as we please with our guns and money.
MY 1911's with beavertails DON'T bite me or poke me in the blubber. MY 1911's with GI grip safeties DO bite me AND poke me in the blubber. I have no problems cocking the hammers with my beavertails, and no problems de-cocking either. But I use BOTH hands to decock, I'm not foolish enough to try to decock a 1911 one-handed. And my thumb lays right where John B. intended it to, not "sticking up in the air".
And I've never heard of a firing pin stop plate "falling off". That's a bit of a stretch.
As far as sights, well, that rant was just stupid. Cocking a 1911 by shoving the muzzle or rear sight against a table? Yeah, THAT sounds like really safe gun handling.
The old saying about "opinions" comes to mind here......
__________________
Ever feel like the world's a tuxedo, and you're a pair of brown shoes? - George Gobel
It is very frustrating taking all the Mods off and going back to stock every time I buy a used 1911. Fortunately stock parts are still relatively inexpensive.
I will have to reread, but I think I agree with about everything said. Browning knew what he was doing. I have never experienced a hammer bite, but I had an old Marine show me how to grip it. Every 1911 I own is stock GI, down to the grips. If I grip a 1911 properly, the hogue rubber is actually a detriment. If I switch grips to a "loose hand" style they work all right, but why? Aftermarket beaver tails, safeties, triggers, sites and mainspring housings are a complete waste in my eyes and are replaced immediately.
__________________
"It is useless for the sheep
to pass resolutions in favour of
vegetarianism" ~ R. W. Inge
i disagree with you sunwheel on a couple of points.i changed the short stock trigger on one of my 1911 with a larger vidiki national match trigger.it has a built-in overtravel screw and as you said has holes drilled in it.the longer trigger places my finger in a more natural position as opposed to having to claw at it.as far as thumb safetys go,i once was involved in a stressful situation and my thumb missed dissengaging the safety.you bet my 1911 now wears an ed brown wide thumb safety.also a properly fitted barrel bushing inmo contributes to better accuracy.i just replaced my recoil spring in one of my 1911's with one from wolff.it came with a firing pin spring and after replacing it i have to agree with rondog;i can't imagine the firing pin stop plate falling out.i have been shooting 1911's many years now and have never even heard of that phenomin.i also agree with rondog,lefty,and swede,1911s should be personalized [unless collectable] to make it ones perfect version of the gun.fwiw my 1991 colt compact came from the factory with an extended slide release.a nice feature that makes the gun easier to operate;isn't that what it's all about.
I customize my kimbers for one reason "it's **** fun". the bells and whistles may or may not make me a better handgunner ? I dont know for sure. but I do know how much I enjoy the gun bling
In the twelve years I have owned my Colt M1991A1, I have tried several "enhancements" - and promptly removed most of them. I do still have the wide grip safety (not the "beavertail') because I DO get hammerbite, no matter how low my grip - I have huge hands.
I like the thicker rubber grip panels with front finger-groove piece added - gives me a better grip. I shoot better with it.
Tried the extended magwell - but my broad-based Mecgar magazines wouldn't fit! it went bye-bye.
Tried a big target grip with palm-swell - felt marvelous, and it improved my groups - but it couldn't be holstered! It went bye-bye.
My trigger is very nice - it's still the OEM 'plastic' trigger.
Never had the extractor, FP stop or plunger tube 'fixed', as they never broke.
My Colt works well for ME.
Personal preference and choice are good things.
__________________ If you actually passed third grade English, let it show!
Adult Literacy is your friend.
I've owned 4 1911's over the years, two had all the bells and whistles, two were kept as they came from the box. Spent a lot of money for bragging rights and that's about it.
Closer to stock you stay the better.
I run a 1911, not A1, built in 1918. Only non OEM is King bushing, and Pacymeyer grips. With Mil hardball ammo I can hit a 55 gal drum lid all day at 75yds. I also run a SA V12 factory custom 1911A1 that has all the bells and whistles from factory,havnt shot it much, but enjoy the SA as much as the Colt. I would rather carry the old workhorse because of simple shooter for me.
If someone is opinionated and old school on the 1911 and reliability, familiarity, and with less to go wrong, so what.
In a gunfight use what you use best. CCW is staking your life and the life of others on your experience and response with a battle weapon. If only have one usable arm, racking a slide on a table with a workhorse thats built for battle, it can take it.
Any thing that will help make it bombproof in your mind, and help keep your confidence up so not have to worry about a failure, the best advice is,
Keep It Simple Sam
I would rather have a partner with a solid 1911 than a Racegun. This not a rant, just IMHO.
Good luck and good shooting.
__________________ In order for us to see and know evil, we must first see and know GOD...
Jeff Cooper Commemorative Model should have been a Colt LW Commander with Pachmayr grips and a parkerized finish. He'd of liked that I think. Nothing better than a no BS 1911 that's a bit handier to carry/conceal.
Last edited by Taurus Fan; 05-28-2009 at 03:15 AM.
In the twelve years I have owned my Colt M1991A1, I have tried several "enhancements" - and promptly removed most of them. I do still have the wide grip safety (not the "beavertail') because I DO get hammerbite, no matter how low my grip - I have huge hands.
I like the thicker rubber grip panels with front finger-groove piece added - gives me a better grip. I shoot better with it.
Personal preference and choice are good things.
I feel ya on the Hammer Bite issue...us guys with Gorilla-sized hands have to be careful with more than 1911's...
__________________ Marlin & Calico Specialist
I'm not just Trigger Happy, I'm Trigger Ecstatic!!
it all depends on what you need your 1911 to do. if shooting IPSC or bowling pin competitions those are not everyday carry guns but they in fact have been raised to a high performance level with their modifications. very similar to your daily driver of a car versus a car trailered to the dragstrip for competition. (watch The Steel Challenge or the Bianchi cup to see what full race guns can do). John Browning made a great platform in the 1911 for a dependable service pistol but thats what he intended it to be. in its out of the box condition it is not going to clear 5 bowling pins off a table with 5 shots in 3 sec. or less.
in my opinion, where people mess up is putting too may comp. parts on a carry gun. some stuff may be necessary. for instance I have big hands and it doesnt matter how i put my thumb the web of my hand gets chewed up without the modified grip safety. (I've never had a problem cocking a bobed hammer). I'm also missing the tip of my right thumb about mid thumbnail so I need the extended slide stop. I do not need a extended thumb safety or an ambexderious one since if I have to shoot left handed that means i'm already wounded and the safeties off anyway. as I stated in another post, for carry guns I do not recomend FLGR's because if wounded you can rack the slide against any edge as was described above. FLGR's make this very difficult to do.
there are some modifactions I do recomend for carry guns.
extended ejector pin. (begins ejection before slide bottoms out)
recoil spring rubber shock buffer. (make sure slide notch still over tavels slide stop)
At least a brite orange front site. (when the front site falls back to blade level fire again)
the Grip Safety may be a personal choice, for me I need one. I do like the ones that allow a higher grip on the gun to help manage recoil.
As far as sights, well, that rant was just stupid. Cocking a 1911 by shoving the muzzle or rear sight against a table? Yeah, THAT sounds like really safe gun handling.
The old saying about "opinions" comes to mind here......
Rondog, the technique of racking the pistol with the sites was developed for combat shooting, not everyday target practice. If you get shot in your left wrist, it'd be nice to still be able to reload/clear malfunctions, wouldn't it?
__________________ ''Somebodies got to let ya down sooner or later.'' -JOE
Ya know what sunwheel29, if YOU don't like that stuff and don't want it on your 1911's, that's all fine and dandy. That's your right and you're entitled to your opinions about them.
And I've never heard of a firing pin stop plate "falling off". That's a bit of a stretch.
As far as sights, well, that rant was just stupid. Cocking a 1911 by shoving the muzzle or rear sight against a table? Yeah, THAT sounds like really safe gun handling.
The old saying about "opinions" comes to mind here......
Sadly pardner my opinions are based on facts and reality. Yours seem to be based on your emotions.
You know what they say about emotions....Emotions can get you killed.
I have seen many guys send good guns off to have aftermarket JUNK fitted to them, and yet, they didn't have the gun ramped and throated even though the gun jammed. They didn't have the plunger tube staked on, or any actual useful modifications done.
Why?
Because they were not after the best combat pistol they could get their hands on.
They were after getting other tyros to ENVY them and their custom gun.
I have no doubt that there are people like that whose emotional desire to get people to envy them got killed when a tricked out looking gun choked in the danger zone.
If you ever get in a gunfight, and I hope you don't, I can promise you that you will be more concerned about your sight picture and your trigger squeeze than you are about your beavertail and your two piece guiderod....If you survive, that is. ...
When I was your age an old timer taught me how to operate a 1911 single handed. Including how to rack the slide by holding it by the fingers and pushing the handle down with my thumb.
Its for if you get shot in your left arm, by the way.
He learned them from a guy who got his arm blown off in Korea.
Jeff Cooper used to see the firing pin stop plate fall off about twice a month. Thats why he recommended that modification. Mark Moritz can tell you about it too.
It is your money and you should spend it how you see fit.
I just hope you are intelligent and knowledgeable enough to realize a throating job, a staked on plunger tube and press fitted firing pin stop are more REAL WORLD useful than an overdone grip safety or two peice guide rod.
The point is that most of this stuff was dreamed up by makers of aftermarket parts to seperate the FOOL from his MONEY by playing to his sense of ENVY.
Years ago, Cooper was on "American Shooter" shooting one of the original GSP pistols. With the standard grip safety and spur hammer. You had to look closely to realize it wasn't a box stock government model.
thats the gun he shot and thats the gun he wore on his hip.
I am not sure that he ever saw the Commemorative Model with all the bells and whistles.
Didn't that come out after his passing?
