First of all, I know this topic has been done a lot on here, but I decided to start a new thread for one of my friends to read.
The friend I'm talking about is married with a child on the way and recently purchased a house. He is currently trying to decide the best firearm to buy for home defense. At this time he is not a gun-owner, but has eight years military experience and as I have been shooting with him before I know he is an extremely competent rifleman and very safety concious. He would like to keep the amount of money he spends between 6 and 7 hundred bucks, and has in his head to buy an XD in either .40 or .45.
I myself have limited experience with handguns, (though ironically probably more than my friend despite his military background) and would not trust myself with one in a home defense type situation. Definately better than nothing, but my 1st choice has always been a 12 gauge. I've never seen any sort of combat, but I know the adrenaline rush I get when I spot a big buck and can only imagine how this rush would be multiplied extensively in the case of a home invasion or self defense scenario. If I've got the shakes and things are happening fast, I'd rather be aiming a fairly heavy scattergun than a pistol. Also, a decent hd shotgun setup could be had for probably half than the price of an XD. This would leave (in theory) enough for an SKS or similar type surplus rifle, which may be a lifesaver in any sort of bugout situation.
There are other variables here but I won't discuss them now as I try to avoid long posts, but the main question is, if one is on a limited budget, and can't afford all three, what would be the most reasonable order to purchase the above mentioned (or similar)firearms in.
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Last edited by tclu1308; 05-31-2009 at 10:39 AM.
Reason: added text
I would go with the shotgun get enough ammo to become proficent with. What ever is left over you can purchase a .22 to become more familiar with marksmanship basics, Then get a mil-surp rifle. After your friend becomes confident.
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For 800$
Maverick/Mossberg 12G-175$
Mosin Nagant m44-150$
Marlin 60-125$
Firearms equals=450$
6 bricks of .22LR-100$
400 rounds birdshot 12G-100$
400rd spam can 7.62x54R-125$
Ammo cost-325$
Total 775$
I would spend the other 25$ on cleaning supplies.
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You say that though he's ex-military, he's not an experienced shooter. If cost is the real issue, I'd suggest a Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge with an 18 inch barrel and ghost ring sights. Cost would be about $300, meaning he could buy a lot of ammo to practice with.
Get him one or more of the DVDs on room-clearing, and perhaps one of those aftermarket mounts that allows mounting a mini-maglite.
He'd still have the securing the firearm against curious little finger problem to deal with, but that's outside the scope of this piece of advice. He has that problem no matter what kind of firearm he settles on as his home defense gun.
That is why another option for him would be a Saiga 20 gauge. He can keep the shotgun in the closet or under the bed or whatever, and have a loaded magazine in the nightstand. It does not take long to slap a magazine into any AK-type action and bring a round into battery, and the snap! of a bolt sliding shut is almost as effective an intruder-scarer as the ti-CHAK of a pump action shotgun.
Generally, for someone with little shooting experience, I recommend a shotgun for home defense. A 20 gauge will kick less than a 12 gauge, and at home defense ranges you aren't giving up much hitting power; yet the accuracy you gain will make the trade-off worthwhile. It's not how loud the boom is - it's how many pellets hit the target.
Well if your pistol is something like my baby here .
Glock gen 4 Rough Frame 17 , 9mm 33rd mags
with Advanced armament 9mm silencer with a Streamlight TLR-2 light laser combo.
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i've said this before but a shotgun pattern inside of 20 ft is still so small you have to aim it like a rifle(normal size for most rooms unless your a kennedy or something). that, plus the fact a long gun can be taken away easier in a house clearing senario a handgun only seems more viable in that instance. a good pistol or wheelgun with a crimson trace lazer and a heavey d cell light leaves me much more at eaze if i were to look for bad guys in da house,and even with a single stack 9 or 40 i feel i can hit quicker and more accurate in a close environment(around corners, doors, ect.). but yes...my wife would prolly be behind the bed with a 12 guage loaded with #4 buck as backup.
For 800$
Maverick/Mossberg 12G-175$
Mosin Nagant m44-150$
Marlin 60-125$
Firearms equals=450$
6 bricks of .22LR-100$
400 rounds birdshot 12G-100$
400rd spam can 7.62x54R-125$
Ammo cost-325$
Total 775$
I would spend the other 25$ on cleaning supplies.
Genius!
But seriously, the issue is how much attention will be paid to using these newly purchased tools?
Well if he is only planning on having a home defense shooter, I would focus on something he can have available to himself, as well as his spouse, that can be used effectively with little or no training (because it sounds to me like it will be a closet flower) and stand up to being ignored and treated as a lucky charm against bad luck most of it's life. With that in mind I would recommend the two fundamental firearms for the any shooter:
12 gauge pump action shotgun .22 caliber rifle
Two capable people in the home, in my opinion, means they should both be able to arm themselves - and yes I am saying that a .22 rifle is a viable defensive option, most especially for non-shooters and the inexperienced. You can find many options for both with enough cash left over for practice ammo.
In my opinion a handgun is best suited for those with the dedication to practice and fully understand the weapon they choose. He may have the background and the previous experience, but will anyone else be capable of wringing any kind of effectiveness out of it? To be cliche, you are only as strong as your weakest link...
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+1, though I'd say 20g maximum. You don't lose much but, as stated, the recoil reduction is nice.
If she is recoil sensitive, even a .410 will do the job, at least better than any handgun one might use for HD. Five .36" pellets at 1100fps per shot is still like five 9mm FMJs.
Personally, I would lean more towards Thrillbilly's thinking, if I had a limited budget. But the end decision will obviously not be mine. As stated before, I myself don't have enough experience with handguns to feel comfortable using one for self defense. This is not to say that my friend, with his military experience and training, would not adapt well to a handgun and become proficient with it. Have any of you guys with military rifle training, tactical type training gone on to training with a handgun? I would assume military training would be an excellent foundation for becoming competent with other types of weapons. Also, if he does decide to go with a handgun, what would be a good way to start learning the fundementals? We have no CCW here in IL (yet), hence no real "courses". Cyrano, thanks for the tip on the DVDs. Do you have a particular name you prefer or perhaps a link where we could check into this?
Also, KnightRider, good grief man, every time you post pics on here it makes me jealous!
__________________ If anybody asks I spent it on golf balls.
If you are home alone or only have a spouse / partner in the bedroom with you, crouching behind the bed or in the corner with the shotgun would be your best bet by far.
However, if you will have any reason to move and perhaps use a free hand, a pistol would be better I think (one that you can shoot with one hand). For example, being able to open doors, grab other family members, or even hold off an attacker while still keeping the weapon ready are all benefits. Also, going around corners and through doorways, a long gun would, as stated, be easier to take away or simply push to the side.
However, as mentioned, efficient use of a handgun requires regular practice to become and remain proficient. If this will indeed just be dust collector, the shotgun will really be the only viable option. What he sacrifices in mobility will be made up for in practical accuracy.
If he has a child in the house safety is a big concern a loaded pistol can be in a locked box (the ones made for quick retrieval) a shotgun would have to be made child safe and still quickly usable. (very small lockable cabinet with gun loaded inside)
Keep the gun in a real safe (bolted to / through the wall) when not home. Get it out when you ARE home, but perhaps hide it. When you go to bed, it goes on / by the night stand.
Though, teaching your kid, as early as possible, about the responsibilities and dangers of handguns (don't water it down, explain how easily he could be playing with it and end up killing you or his friend or whatever, and explain all the damage it would cause to him and others). That is BY FAR the safest way to keep a firearm in the house. The only other way would be to have it so locked up and such that you can't use it when you need to (sealed up in a wall, haha).
Keep the gun in a real safe (bolted to / through the wall) when not home. Get it out when you ARE home, but perhaps hide it. When you go to bed, it goes on / by the night stand.
Though, teaching your kid, as early as possible, about the responsibilities and dangers of handguns (don't water it down, explain how easily he could be playing with it and end up killing you or his friend or whatever, and explain all the damage it would cause to him and others). That is BY FAR the safest way to keep a firearm in the house. The only other way would be to have it so locked up and such that you can't use it when you need to (sealed up in a wall, haha).
I concur. Both my kids are proficient with every firearm in the house.
Anyone who has both kids and firearms has a responsibility to train their kids. My PERSONAL opinion is that anyone who doesn't is making a big mistake and inviting trouble.
When my wife and I go out and leave the girls at home, they have access to them. I keep them in my gun safe and locked up during the day. The sidearm comes out at night locked and loaded.
you saying i can't hold that pistol with one hand Mr MacDonald ? huh huh lol
i can by the way ... and at 100 yards with the can on it i can hit the gong ever time.
No, I was talking more along the lines of perhaps a .44mag Airweight revolver. Trying to drag your kid out of his / her room while popping off a few down the hall might be difficult with one hand.
i've said this before but a shotgun pattern inside of 20 ft is still so small you have to aim it like a rifle(normal size for most rooms unless your a kennedy or something). that, plus the fact a long gun can be taken away easier in a house clearing senario a handgun only seems more viable in that instance. a good pistol or wheelgun with a crimson trace lazer and a heavey d cell light leaves me much more at eaze if i were to look for bad guys in da house,and even with a single stack 9 or 40 i feel i can hit quicker and more accurate in a close environment(around corners, doors, ect.). but yes...my wife would prolly be behind the bed with a 12 guage loaded with #4 buck as backup.
thanks rockman, this is the type of disscussion I'm looking for. You haven't changed my mind on what I'm gonna use for home defense, but your points are valid and obviously tailored to your comfort and skill. And from your post I gather that you already have a 12 gauge.
anyway, it is still my opinion that if someone has no firearms, and wants an hd weapon, a 12 gauge is the most sensible and cost effective choice. I agree that there may be situations that could arise where a shotgun might be a detrement. But for an all around, versatile hd weapon I just don't see how a 12 gauge can be beat. I read an article a while back (I think it was in CCW Magazine) about how a pistol is great for a bedside hd weapon, in that you can use it to fight your way to your shotgun.
__________________ If anybody asks I spent it on golf balls.
In my opinion a handgun is best suited for those with the dedication to practice and fully understand the weapon they choose. He may have the background and the previous experience, but will anyone else be capable of wringing any kind of effectiveness out of it? To be cliche, you are only as strong as your weakest link...[/QUOTE]
I wholly agree with this statement, metronome. It is actually a point I was trying to make. If someone is gonna go to the range twice a month and rip through a couple hundred rounds, and really get familiar with their weapon of choice, that is one thing. If job, family, school, mowing the yard... if all that stuff gets in the way of practicing with your new handgun, but you are already fairly competent with a shotgun, then I think it would be wise to purchase a shotgun.
Maybe I am being biased here against handguns. hmmm. It could be that I am subconciously starting threads to try and talk myself into getting an XD, and spending some time familiarizing myself with it... hmmm... that would be fun.
__________________ If anybody asks I spent it on golf balls.
