[Cyrano]

This post originated with thread drift in a thread on modified milsurps in the Mosin Nagant Forum. However, I feel it deserves wider consideration.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have agreed on the proposition that Mosin Nagants are in the same position of cost and availability as the No.4 Mark I Enfields were ten years ago; that Springfield rifles were fifty years ago; and that Krag-Jorgensens were shortly before World War II. Low cost military surplus rifles, plenty of them out there, with cheap & plentiful ammo readily available.

Fortune favors the bold, but only if the bold are prepared to grasp it when it appears. The time to prepare for the next great milsurp rifle deal is now.

So this is my question. What is the next battle rifle that will be dirt cheap, in ample supply, and with lots of milsurp ammo that we should be on the lookout for? Which one is it? What's the country of origin? And when do you think it will be released to the civilian market?

I must confess I don't have a clue myself. I keep thinking about the reason that the M-14s have never made it to the civilian marketplace: that it is difficult to impossible to convert them to semi-auto-only operation in such a way they can't be reconverted to selective fire by a shadetree gunsmith. It's why there are so few L1A1s and FN-FALs on the market, I think. Given that the FAL was nicknamed "the battle rifle of the Free World," and that something like 26 nations adopted it as their national battle rifle from the 1950s onward, and that it's been superseded in at least two nations I can think of (France and the UK) for something on the order of 20 years, you'd think they'd be coming on the military surplus market right about now at affordable prices. But they aren't, and I think the selective-fire issue is the reason why. The last price I saw on an FAL was in four figures. It had been converted to semi-auto fire only by Century Arms and at least in theory could not be reconverted. But a four figure price tag is not exactly what I'd call "affordable" for the average shooter.

We will see the same problem with the M-16 series when it's finally replaced with a real battle rifle. But at least in the case of the M-16 series, if the yankee gummint was that smart (a fact I doubt, based on a History Channel episode of Boneyard featuring the Anniston Army Depot and how they deal with M-16s) they could strip the rifles down and simply discard the lowers and trigger groups, while selling the uppers, grips and stocks and 20 round magazines either direct to the public or to companies that would assemble them into "surplus" M-16s using civilian-manufactured lowers that can't be modified for selective fire.

So, apart from countries that may still have stocks of World War II-era firearms tucked away, most likely India, Brazil, Argentina, Israel and places like that, what other possibilities are there for "the next cheap military surplus rifle?"

[knightRider]

i think as far as ammo cost the 5.45/39 is a steal.

[Big Dog]

There won't be. The whole idea of importing and collecting military rifles is coming to an end. We SHOULD have had the 5.56X45 CETME Modelo L by now - they are being destroyed. We SHOULD have had those Russian-capture German G43's by now - they remain in storge 'somewhere' in mother Russia. We SHOULD have had those Greek M1 Carbines by now - they haven't come over.
Surplus weapon and ammo are being burned and dumped at sea in record numbers, by those nations pandering to the Useless Nation's fickle plans of 'fighting the proliferation of small arms'. So those cash-strapped nations, with people starving and needing food, medicine and other goods that the sales to the US civilian market could have bought - go without. BRAVO, UN! You damn millions of people to long suffering, while upholding your silly ideals. Sold to US, those guns would generate needed money, and would NOT be used in crime or warfare any more. Anybody know of any street thugs holding people up with Mosins or Swiss K31's....? Are gangsta's fighting over turf with Mauser K98's and Nagant revolvers.....? It's a shame, the waste of good firearms, that WE would appreciate for their history, going to rust in the sea of in a landfill. Globalism at work, folks.

[SightNSqueeze]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Big Dog

Surplus weapon and ammo are being burned and dumped at sea in record numbers, by those nations pandering to the Useless Nation's fickle plans of 'fighting the proliferation of small arms'. So those cash-strapped nations, with people starving and needing food, medicine and other goods that the sales to the US civilian market could have bought - go without. BRAVO, UN! You damn millions of people to long suffering, while upholding your silly ideals.

^^ Sad but true. The World War II weapons will be the last to be enjoyed and appreciated in mass numbers. Hundreds of thousands of M1 Garands were put to the torch by the Carter Administration until NRA and members of Congress made them stop in the late ‘70s. Only a handful of M-14 service rifles minus their select fire capability made their way into civilian hands before almost all of the “1.6 million” M-14s procured between 1957 and 1964 were destroyed en mass with most of the survivors given away to Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia as foreign aid during the Clinton Administration. The last Bush Administration had to “purchase” most of them back to be used in the GWT after 9/11. To date, I believe there are less than 26,000 M-14s (out of the original 1.6 million) still in service. We won’t even discuss the 2 million or so .45 M1911 and 1911A1 service pistols that were dumped in a chopper and turned into scrap steel. Fortunately, some parts were salvaged, mixed with after-market mil-spec parts to create “parts guns” which were marketed before the supply dried up. Finally, does anybody remember the stacks of East German AK47s that were crushed by a T-72 tank in a UN publicity stunt near the old Checkpoint Charley in Berlin after the fall of the Berlin Wall?

[Capt'n Mil Coll]

And this is what I had to say about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrano
So this is my question. What is the next battle rifle that will be dirt cheap, in ample supply, and with lots of milsurp ammo that we should be on the lookout for? Which one is it? What's the country of origin? And when do you think it will be released to the civilian market?

For the Milsurp collectors that is the real question isnt it.

The trend I see is that modern countries moved to true Assult rilfe firearms. Because they have automatic capabilities they are restricted. This makes it impossible for most people to afford. Also due to legal restrictions most dont want to go through the hassle of Class III.

So does that mean the Mosin Nagant was the last of the WWII great rifles to come out? I really dont see many choices left from WWII.

The M44 Mosin Nagant was not even a battle rifle. It may have been used in some minor skirmishes in some frozen part of the world. But it was not used in any large extensive battles. They were manufactured and put in storage until they were not even modern enough to be used as a battle rifle. After they were sold off they have become collectable as a battle rifle type.

Every war used its own finite types of rifles. After the wars were done most rifles were outdated due to advances in technology. Arsenals have to repair old stock rifles. When they run out of parts it becomes expensive to have new parts manufactured to specs. Also the arsenals have to have storage for the new stock. This causes the selling off of the old stock to partly finance the purchase of the new stock.

So where does that leave us? Korea has the M14. Not a cheep rifle and it is a select fire rifle.

Vietnam used the M16. Same story.

And anything past that is more and more of the same. Fully auto rifles that most people would not be able to afford or allowed to own.

Should we lobby for relaxing the Class III requirements so everyday citizens can own these battle rifles?

As time goes on the older battle rifles become more valuble and harder to find in original battle condition. For collectors of battle rifles like myself this means we pay a higher premium for unaltered battle firearms.

A great example of this is the Civil War rifles. In the 60's they were plentifull and cheep. Now they start at over two thousand dollars. So most people cannot afford to collect these fine old warhorses.

So I say if you want to collect WWII rifles buy them now. They are only going up in price. And dont listen to those that say just because there are a lot of them on the market now certain kinds are not going to go up in value. Every time someone simply refinishes an old battle rifle the value of the unfinished ones goes up.

[rondog]

Should I consider buying a K98 from Mitchell's Mausers? I'd like to have one, is that a good place to get one from? Never seen any for sale locally, but then, I don't cruise the gun shops much.

[lefty o]

no you shouldnt. overpriced and improperly refinished.

[SightNSqueeze]

Quote:       Originally Posted by rondog

Should I consider buying a K98 from Mitchell's Mausers? I'd like to have one, is that a good place to get one from? Never seen any for sale locally, but then, I don't cruise the gun shops much.

They are good looking but about a hundred or more overpriced. Also, they may have been refinished and re-blued which is OK with me, but not so OK with purists and collectors. Check with Classic Arms and Century Arms from time to time. They come without trigger guard retaining screws (so-called capture screws), cleaning rods and front sight hoods, but Classic Arms has had repro components made and they sell at a reasonable price. If they don't have anything now, they may later. I heard that the Soviets scooped about 7-8 million Kar98ks by the end of the war. I don’t think we’ve seen a fraction of them yet.

[runfiverun]

they are done......

[Big Dog]

One of the major problems for us as collectors is the BATFE's silly rule, "Once a machinegun, always a machinegun!" This is what doomed the Semi-modified M14 rifle, that we COULD have had in good numbers. It is what dooms the possibility of any semi-only M16s, HKs, and other newer rifles that aren't rebuilt onto American-made semi-only recievers.
And now there is their ruling that surplus BARRELS cannot be imported - making it necessary for new rifles using parts kits to have the more expensive US-made barrels. It runs prices up and availability down.
I really hate to see the end of this era of gun collecting. Prices were better in the 60's and 70's (bolt rifles for $25, semis for $150 or less!), but we didn't have the choices we did in the 90's and early 2000's. We have enjoyed a Golden Age, now sadly coming to an end.
With the surplus ammo stocks dwindling, we even are forced to handload for our milsurps! As Bob said, "The Times they are changing."

[moosemike]

I believe that they are done too, courtesy of the UN. I would have liked to see some French MAS 36's come over in mass shipment but that won't ever happen.

[wunhunglo]

Don't just blame the UN,(you never listen to them anyway) your Homeland insecurity outfit & state Dept. have a helluva lot to answer for with all the new Import & Export regulations.
Just realize that there will be no new "surplus Battle rifles" ending up on the American market, just as the supply of "surplus" ammunition is being cut off as well. You'll soon be saying Bye-bye to the spam cans from eastern europe.

[SightNSqueeze]

Quote:       Originally Posted by wunhunglo

Don't just blame the UN,(you never listen to them anyway) your Homeland insecurity outfit & state Dept. have a helluva lot to answer for with all the new Import & Export regulations. Just realize that there will be no new "surplus Battle rifles" ending up on the American market, just as the supply of "surplus" ammunition is being cut off as well. You'll soon be saying Bye-bye to the spam cans from eastern europe.

I suppose Remington, Federal, and Winchester won't be loosing any sleep over that prospect. How do you spell " .85 per round?"

[Archetype_wyo]

Crying like a big girl that just spiller her ice-scream cone is how you spell $.85/round

[SightNSqueeze]

Quote:       Originally Posted by SightNSqueeze

I suppose Remington, Federal, and Winchester won't be loosing any sleep over that prospect. How do you spell " .85 per round?"

I might add that most people will just hoard what they have and lock it away with their centerfire weapons and shoot .22 rifles and pistols instead. They might just quit shooting all together until the market “fixes” itself. If Remington, Federal, and Winchester think they will suddenly corner a market and reap the profits for themselves, they might just find themselves selling apparel, key chains, and their ridicules looking luggage instead of ammunition for the bulk of their profits because some other U.S. based company with the investment capital and marketing foresight will take the shooting market away from them for good. Imagine the enormous profits to be reaped by any manufacturer who can produce .30 ball ammunition, with the right propellant, that can be safely used in all of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of M1 Garands out there, and can market it at less than .40 per round. Better yet, imagine two or three manufacturers in stiff competition with each other. It just might remind some people what a fair and free market is all about.

[Archetype_wyo]

+1 Its like Rem, Win and the others are just waiting for the mil-surp fallout... They're probably banking on it happening but just like you said; people will hoarde what they have and wait for a more reasonable company to take up where the milsurp left off.

[SightNSqueeze]

There was a "severe" ammunition shortage during World War II, and that shortage was for far more excusable and nobler reasons than what we are witnessing today. Regardless, it was during that time that reloading became very popular and reloading equipment companies became stiffly competitive with the ammunition companies, and with each other. When the war was over, the big three ammunition companies never retook the same pre-war market they had enjoyed previously. Much of the reason had to do with people losing interest in hunting and shooting, but another reason was that reloading tools had become an industry in itself. Serious shooters and hunters “who purchased more than a box of ammo every couple of years” weren’t about to get gouged by marketing and packaging. There is a lesson to be learned here. Hopefully, some “corporate types” are reading this and won’t make the same mistake. If they price themselves out of their own market, somebody will gladly take it away from them. Just ask GM and Chrysler.

[knightRider]

that reminds me i need to buy some more 5.34/39

[gbear-48]

Current great deals:
M1 Garands and M1 Carbines from CMP:
www.thecmp.org

Czech/Slovak VZ58 rifles assembled by D-Technic and 922r'ed in the USA by CzechPoint-USA.
www.czechpoint-usa.com

Future great deals:
Over 100,000 M1 Garands and M1 Carbines returning to the USA from South Korea over the next year or so.
To be followed by over 600,000 more Carbines by the year 2020.
www.chosun.com

Cick on English , then run a search for M1 carbine.

[SightNSqueeze]

Quote:       Originally Posted by gbear-48

Current great deals: M1 Garands and M1 Carbines from CMP: www.thecmp.org Czech/Slovak VZ58 rifles assembled by D-Technic and 922r'ed in the USA by CzechPoint-USA. www.czechpoint-usa.com Future great deals: Over 100,000 M1 Garands and M1 Carbines returning to the USA from South Korea over the next year or so. To be followed by over 600,000 more Carbines by the year 2020. www.chosun.com Cick on English , then run a search for M1 carbine.

Thanks gbear-48. As soon as I read that, the rain stopped and the clouds parted a bit ...