[Archetype_wyo]

Quote:       Originally Posted by troy2000

I see no point in people now living "apologizing" for what people dead a hundred years or more may have done. Frankly, I'm not big on apologies of any sort, anyway. They're very seldom sincere, and don't really change anything. But your claim that slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War is a rewriting of history on a breathtaking scale.

Hey Troy, I was readin somewhere and I'm not entirely sure where. But Lincoln had said that if he could have won the Civil war and kept Slavery he would have, if he could have won the Civil War and abolished slavery he would have. That the most important key to fighting the civil war was to ensure that the United States was just that...united from there on out.

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by tlarkin

Do you guys feel we should not have memorials for such things, and I may go as far as to say even our veterans? It is not a bad thing to look at the past and learn from our mistakes and recognize that we have changed, progressed, and moved on from darker times. As much as I hate bs pointless legislation, since I see that as a waste of my tax dollars at work, I do think that it is good to remember what our nation once was and what it is now. We have a holiday celebrating Christopher Columbus, yet he wasn't the first one here, didn't know where he was, enslaved and killed off several Atlantic islanders (complete genocide), and was not a very good person at all. Yet we have a holiday for his sorry butt, and it is all in false pretenses too. You don't always learn the truth, or what is right in schools, books, and other forms of education. Sometimes you have read inbetween all of that to dig up the truth. I don't think we need any more holidays or anything (unless it involves me getting off work) but I do think we could all recognize what we did wrong, who we have hurt, who has made sacrifices, who has worked and bled for this country, and so forth.

Recognizing Christopher Columbus is legitimate, because he's the one who brought the 'New World' to the attention of Europe. He started the ball rolling on a series of events that eventually led to the founding of the United States of America as we know it today... and I'm kind of fond of the place.

I refuse to feel guilty about the fact that some of my ancestors got here before the Revolution and may have mistreated the natives, any more than I feel guilty about the fact that some of my other ancestors were already here, fighting and killing each other long before the Europeans ever showed up.

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Archetype_wyo

Hey Troy, I was readin somewhere and I'm not entirely sure where. But Lincoln had said that if he could have won the Civil war and kept Slavery he would have, if he could have won the Civil War and abolished slavery he would have. That the most important key to fighting the civil war was to ensure that the United States was just that...united from there on out.

Yep, Lincoln was fighting to save the Union. The people in the Southern states were fighting to save their rights.

Unfortunately, the right they were overwhelmingly worried about was the right to continue holding other human beings as personal property. It may offend some of their descendants, but I think that's a pretty sorry 'right' to fight and kill for.

And don't forget that Lincoln was elected on an anti-slavery platform. Although he may not have started out wanting to eliminate slavery altogether, he was speaking out against allowing it to spread to the territories and new states as far back as 1854, six years before he was elected President.

Lincoln's Changing Views on Slavery

[thrillbilly]

Quote:       Originally Posted by troy2000

Let me repeat that: of the 21 paragraphs in Missouri's declaration of secession, every single oaragraph except for the first and last specifically mentioned slavery... not economics.

MO never seceded from the Union, we were a "border" state, did ya perhaps mean Mississippi?
LOL, I actually caught Troy where he can't argue his way out! Score 1 for me. (I'm just messin' with ya Troy)

[samuel]

As I understand it,no one could read or write in Mo. to secceed.It has since improved slightly since then.Just my understanding. ,,,sam.

[tlarkin]

Quote:       Originally Posted by samuel

As I understand it,no one could read or write in Mo. to secceed.It has since improved slightly since then.Just my understanding. ,,,sam.

No Sam that was southern MO where the hill billies lived!

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by thrillbilly

MO never seceded from the Union, we were a "border" state, did ya perhaps mean Mississippi? LOL, I actually caught Troy where he can't argue his way out! Score 1 for me. (I'm just messin' with ya Troy)

BAD fingers! BAD fingers! Learn to type! [smack] Owwww.......

Yep, meant Mississippi. The quote above that does say Mississippi.

[Seabeescotty]

Most of the folks who fought for the south never owned any slaves, they simply didn't like the federal gov't telling them how they would live their lives. They also didn't care much for the northern method of taxation, which doesn't get mentioned much in the history books, anymore. And they didn't like the threat of armed troops coming to their towns, to make them toe the line. Lots of people forget that states rights used to be just that, because the federal gov't had no business meddling in individual states affairs. Naturally, all the states lost their rights to the feds, after the civil war.

[tlarkin]

Quote:       Originally Posted by troy2000

Recognizing Christopher Columbus is legitimate, because he's the one who brought the 'New World' to the attention of Europe. He started the ball rolling on a series of events that eventually led to the founding of the United States of America as we know it today... and I'm kind of fond of the place. I refuse to feel guilty about the fact that some of my ancestors got here before the Revolution and may have mistreated the natives, any more than I feel guilty about the fact that some of my other ancestors were already here, fighting and killing each other long before the Europeans ever showed up.

Well while that may be true he is glorified as a good person and the first person to discover the Americas, but later in life through archeological studies we found that both the Vikings and the Chinese were here probably before Columbus ever sailed the seas. I guess my main point is, it is a holiday for a bigoted slave driver, who drove an entire series of native islanders into genocide over his greed and lust for gold and precious gems.

I don't feel guilty at all Troy, I just find the hypocrisy of it kind of sad, and the fact that we don't really get taught the truth in schools.

As for slave owners in the south, only like 5% of people that lived in the south owned slaves. No one else could afford them. There was this book I read once, called like "letters home from the civil war." or something like that. It was a collection of letters that average soldiers wrote home to their families during the civil war. Some of them are sad, while others put a perspective of history you may have never thought of.

My feeling I got from reading all those letters home is that most men didn't want to fight the civil war at all, but felt it was necessary to stand up what they believed in.

[FortyXDM]

Quote:       Originally Posted by samuel

Could someone please talk to my wife about this slavery and repatronising thing,she has held me in bondage for almost 48yrs and I never get any money. ,,,sam.

Sam - You, of sound mind and by your own design entered freely into a binding contract of marriage. You apparently didn't read the fine print on the flip side of the document you signed just hours before your honeymoon. That document clearly states: "I hereby swear and promise until the end of time, that I will not look at, touch, or engage in anything of a carnal nature with ANY other woman for the rest of my life. If I do, I hereby forfeit all my shit."

It's just like an insurance contract. The BOLD PRINT giveth. (page 1) and the fine print taketh away. (page 2 thu 11).

[thrillbilly]

Quote:       Originally Posted by samuel

As I understand it,no one could read or write in Mo. to secceed.It has since improved slightly since then.Just my understanding. ,,,sam.

Secede, Sam, it's Secede, not secceed. Although that may be true, it's not traits singular to Missourians, most people of that time were illiterate.
As a matter of fact my Grandfathers couldn't read or write anything except their names, yet they raised families and were a asset to their community, more then most Americans can say nowadays!

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by tlarkin

Well while that may be true he is glorified as a good person and the first person to discover the Americas, but later in life through archeological studies we found that both the Vikings and the Chinese were here probably before Columbus ever sailed the seas. I guess my main point is, it is a holiday for a bigoted slave driver, who drove an entire series of native islanders into genocide over his greed and lust for gold and precious gems. I don't feel guilty at all Troy, I just find the hypocrisy of it kind of sad, and the fact that we don't really get taught the truth in schools. As for slave owners in the south, only like 5% of people that lived in the south owned slaves. No one else could afford them. There was this book I read once, called like "letters home from the civil war." or something like that. It was a collection of letters that average soldiers wrote home to their families during the civil war. Some of them are sad, while others put a perspective of history you may have never thought of. My feeling I got from reading all those letters home is that most men didn't want to fight the civil war at all, but felt it was necessary to stand up what they believed in.

I don't think any schools particularly hide the fact that there were contacts before Columbus. It would have been amazing had there not been. but what did the Vikings add to our history? What did the Chinese add? What did either of them set into motion or leave behind, and how did their presence in the Americas shape our modern world? The modern history of this place effectively starts with Columbus, not with Vikings or Chinese.

Nor do the schools or history book particularly whitewash Columbus, as far as I've seen. Even back in the fifties and sixties when I was in school, they didn't make a plaster saint out of him; he was a product of his times. And as far as I can see, he was no worse than the Conquistadors who followed him. It was a pretty brutal milieu he lived in, and we don't have to admire everything about him to admire him for being a stubborn, persuasive visionary who managed a pretty amazing feat.

I'm not disowning Columbus for being a fortune hunter instead of a philanthropist, any more than I'm disowning our Constitution because a good number of the men who wrote it were slave owners. I judge historical figures by their time, not ours.

[samuel]

Quote:       Originally Posted by thrillbilly

Secede, Sam, it's Secede, not secceed. Although that may be true, it's not traits singular to Missourians, most people of that time were illiterate. As a matter of fact my Grandfathers couldn't read or write anything except their names, yet they raised families and were a asset to their community, more then most Americans can say nowadays!

Thanks for once again correcting me,and i see you used "were a asset"and "more then most"in proper style.Keep up the good work.I will be waiting for the next correction. ,,,sam.

[jimkim]

Quote:      

Originally Posted by rambo i, for one, am waiting for an apology from our government for the wholesale slaughter of the native people of this continent since the very first europeans came here. Oh yeah, that'll never happen. How about an apology from the naacp for the disproportionate number of blacks crowding our penal institutions. Oops, that could be deemed racist as we all know that crime is committed solely based on your race percentage of the general population of wherever you commit your crime. Darn. I'd better quit while i'm behind. Actually, my ancestors took white people as slaves, gave the irish their red hair, came to this continent and found it full of indians so went back to their homelands to live a peaceful life until the 1800's when they came here in droves, after the introduction of africans as slaves, to become americans, not hyphenated americans. They learned the language, became educated, built homes, farms, etc. And are presently under-represented in our penal institutions based on their ethnicity. They never owned an african slave and have no reason to appologize. Shove it up your ass, tom harkin! Yeah, i know, he's from iowa. But he doesn't own a home here anymore so we don't know how he keeps in offfice. He has a p.o. Box somewhere.

+2 or whatever the count is now.

They just opened the door for a lawsuit. They have admitted guilt and can now be sued for reparation.

[big shrek]

Quote:       Originally Posted by troy2000

I don't think any schools particularly hide the fact that there were contacts before Columbus. It would have been amazing had there not been. but what did the Vikings add to our history? What did the Chinese add? What did either of them set into motion or leave behind, and how did their presence in the Americas shape our modern world? The modern history of this place effectively starts with Columbus, not with Vikings or Chinese.

The Chinese created Gunpowder, to which we ALL owe a debt of gratitude

But they sure didn't make their discovery known. And niether did the Vikings. Both were notoriously close-mouthed on the info.

Much like the business Louis Lunch in New Haven, Conn. It was the first restraunt to offer hamburgers as a meal item after they were invented at the World's Fair, and it still doing them in their own way in a sideways grill that was made back in 1895. But White Castle gets the credit for Marketing the idea and becoming the first Burger Chain and bringing Hamburgers to the masses. Then McDonald's took it a step further and made it world-wide. People in Russia & China never heard of Louis Lunch, but they sure know McDonald's

Sam Colt didn't invent the revolver, he just invented a REALLY good one...

Chris Columbus thought he had landed in India at first, but he was smart enough to popularize America once he figured out that it was there. The Vikings & Polynesians basically pissed away their claims...much like a gold prospector who didn't manage to get to the assayer's office and file a claim. If you don't DO anything with it, you loose your claim.

As recently as a 15 years ago, an "Indigenous people" were considered to be "sub-human" and "to be Conquered". Iraq played that card with the Kurds. It's what humans DO.

Eventually, the Muslim world will attempt to eradicate all signs of Other Religions in the world....as they are doing now, as they have been doing for 1000 years. What will anyone have to say about that under Sharia Law?? Freedom of speech will be gone.

[tlarkin]

That and Chinese history was passed down orally by Dynasty instead of written down and documented. We had to piece it together after the fact many years later.

[Deersniper]

I know it's coming, the demise of the white race, so I want some acreage and that money now. Let's call it a Bailout so to speak. They might as well apologize to us too. Oh, and a 50 Cal Hawkins, thank you.

[samuel]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Deersniper

I know it's coming, the demise of the white race, so I want some acreage and that money now. Let's call it a Bailout so to speak. They might as well apologize to us too. Oh, and a 50 Cal Hawkins, thank you.

More and more men in the know and countries both for and against the U.S. are saying we are heading for bankruptcy,fast.Russia and China have both warned us we are going Marksist/comunist way too fast.Financial leaders say we could be bankrupt as soon as the end of this year if people don't wake up and stop this madness.What is happening is absolute madness and intentional planning for government to control banking and industry.Government already controls the media (except for Fox) But we still have guns and the 2nd.I am sure the progressives will not let that continue.I expect government licensing like Illinoise has,and no way to get a license.Complete control of the people.Change the Obuma way. ,,,sam.

[Coeloptera]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Deersniper

I know it's coming, the demise of the white race, so I want some acreage and that money now. Let's call it a Bailout so to speak. They might as well apologize to us too. Oh, and a 50 Cal Hawkins, thank you.

Funny, you use the term "white" like it means anything.

My wife is considered "white" now. Her great-grandparents sure as hell weren't.

Sorry, but there is no "white race". The various peoples considered to be that by some are from areas scattered all over the planet. Even the term "caucasian" encompasses people who would most assuredly not be considered "white" in the US.

But to be fair, I've said before here that the term "black" only exists because of slavery.

And that's a good reason reparations are nonsense. See, the only reason we have that category is because the descendants of slaves could not trace their ancestry back beyond the US itself to any degree of accuracy.

Unlike most folks who can say with some degree of confidence, "My family's of German ancestry." or "Vikings, for-real Vikings.", or "Almost entirely Slavic and Balkan." American blacks couldn't do that. They couldn't trace anything back to Kenya, Nairobi, Zaire, or Ethiopia. They were stuck out and cobbled together a "racial identity" using the shared experience of their ancestors and shared continent of origin.

But then it gets decidedly blurred when one realizes the simple fact that all manner of people whose ancestry is more recently from Africa have been heading on over for a while now, some by way of the Carribbean or even South America.

Now we have plenty of black people in the US whose ancestors were never slaves to anyone, ever. Good luck sorting it out.

As for the rest, there are issues more of culture than race at work in things like proportions of blacks in prisons. From a bad start (remember, still slaves only 150 years ago) through legislated and institutionalized racism, to only relatively recent full, legal integration (remember, 1954 was Brown v. Board), then the social and culural struggle of the 60s, this is all still fairly recent stuff.

That being said, there's plenty enough blame to drop on a culture of victimization, too. Enough black leaders and entertainers have flat-out said it. But it's not realistic to say that everything is all equal now, regardless of your skin colour you will have access to the same opportunities.

It's way better, but it ain't quite there yet. There are more than enough studies that still show, for example, disproportionate sentences for the same crimes given to blacks as opposed to anyone else, prejudice in hiring practices based on names that may "sound black" and so on.

Mind you, my idea has always been to ditch things like affirmative action in favour of a more punitive approach towards anyone demonstrably engaging in systemic racism. No leg up, just breaking down the hurdles, and there is a very big difference in the two approaches.

While I'd never suggest coddling, it can be seen that damage done to a culture can linger for generations. Ask the First Nations people up in Canada and the Native Americans down here how they're doing, overall since the near-destruction of their cultures. A lot of them aren't doing too well, and it's hardly because "Indians are lazy drunks by nature.", that's for sure.

An apology or reparations are indeed, nonsense. A recognition that "In the past, the nation sanctioned some bad stuff." isn't so bad, though. Won't hurt us any.

- Coeloptera

[Seabeescotty]

Why is it, that we Americans who aren't black, brown, etc., are the only ones labeled racist? Try opening anything for us only, and see how far you get. But they have all kinds of "black only" programs, institutions, and organizations. Notice the "racist " commments made by black entertainers and politicians? I have, but I've never seen them called down for it. I'm getting a bit tired of this grap, myself. None of my ancestors owned slaves, let alone me, and I'm tired of taking the flack for it. Get over it, and quit sticking your hand out for freebies. Get out and make a life, instead of waiting for uncle sugar to hand it to you. There ain't a living person in this country who owned slaves, except maybe for recent immigrants from guess where. So get over it, and get on with life, like the rest of us.....