[Sam Ruger]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Ten Man

Here's a little article that has some valuable insight on the subject. Doug: Sure. This is a story that’s going to end very badly for a lot of people. I’ve said this before, in many different ways, but I think it’s worth saying again, because most people just don’t grok it… L: Grok. From the Martian word for “drink” and “understand.” In Heinlein’s novels, water was a critical element of Martian culture – makes sense, for a desert planet. When you grok knowledge, as when you drink water, you don’t just hold it in your mouth and spit it out. You take it into yourself, it goes into your blood, and eventually into every cell in your body; it becomes part of you. This is heavy-duty understanding… Sorry for jumping in with the spontaneous lecture. I just suspect many readers will not know the term.

Normally, I'd be concerned about taking advice from someone who speaks Martian.

Quote:      

Aristotle, in the fourth century BC, was the first person to define what money is. And what is it? It’s a store of value and a medium of exchange. The paper we use today is a medium of exchange – it got that way because governments made it illegal not to accept it – but it’s not a good store of value.

Agree with all the above.

Quote:      

What does make for good money? Again, Aristotle gives us the answer. It’s something that has five characteristics: it’s durable and divisible, consistent and convenient, and has value in itself. L: Some of our readers who’ve studied Austrian economics challenged us on that last bit, last time we talked about gold, because, as the Austrians pointed out, value is subjective.

[]As the Austrians mentioned, why does gold/silver have "value in itself? Neither have any industrial use.

Quote:      

it’s as though a bunch of friends without any real money started exchanging IOUs for money, and then after a while forgot that the IOUs were supposed to represent, and be redeemed in, real money.

Agreeing again.

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The problem with this is that, in the case of the IOUs between friends, paper is based solely on hope and trust. One can move away, or die, or turn dishonest, or become insolvent – many other things could happen. A guy stuck with a dead man’s IOU has nothing. With government IOUs, or currencies, it’s worse, because they can increase the number of IOUs in circulation without telling anyone – that’s what inflation is. Since the government creates the IOUs, it gets the benefit of spending them before the inflation they create raises prices, which is basically stealing from the people. And, of course, sometimes governments do “die,” leaving the holders stuck with nothing, just as with the IOUs between friends. In fact, it’s arguably far more likely that such problems will arise from trusting a government to print IOUs than from trusting a friend.

Paper money is just that - paper.

But there is also not enough gold and silver in the world for everyone to use as currency in, say, 90% purity. Oil would be far more likely to become the world's currency of the foreseeable future.

Gold and silver are surplus commodities, valuable only when all other basic needs are met.

[Sam Ruger]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Johnnycat

Initially, yes. At first the "real" and necessary items will be the important ones - food, water, security. Then after time as things start to somewhat stabilize, things that are portable and have inherent value (gold/silver) will become important again.

I think you'll find those who have ammunition today will have the gold tomorrow if the SHTF.

The first requirement of being able to keep gold is to be able to defend it. If you can't defend it, you won't be able to keep it.

[Mooseman684]

Gold has been a valuable Trade Item in EVERY culture and Country since the Dawn of Civilization because of its Rarity , Beauty, and Characteristics like no other metal...And It always will be Valuable.
Gold is Used Extensively in Computers , radios, Cellphones, and Many other electronics...Not just for coins and Jewelry.
Now The reality is That whatever material that is used for Trade , be it gold, silver, or Paper Money, It has to circulate in order for it to work. A pays B who Pays C who Pays D who Pays A etc...
Just like what the GOVERNMENT does not understand it seems. If they wrote us Poor people all a check for lets say $250,000 each as a stimulus , I can Guarantee them That New Cars would be purchased , Mortgages would be paid off, Credit cards would be too, There wouldnt be a Big screen TV available for purchase at any Walmart , food would be bought, guns, ammo, fuel, and Everybody would be bailed out by the flow of Cash into the economy...The People ARE The ECONOMY...Not the banks or Wall street.
We have to Have Money to spend it...

[Johnnycat]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Sam Ruger

I think you'll find those who have ammunition today will have the gold tomorrow if the SHTF. The first requirement of being able to keep gold is to be able to defend it. If you can't defend it, you won't be able to keep it.

In other words - you're going to steal my stuff?

[M14man]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Johnnycat

In other words - you're going to steal my stuff?

He probably doesn't even live near you; but watch that neighbor on your left....cause he will!

[Sam Ruger]

I did see a program on the history channel that showed the most common currency between people in a barter system is drinking alcohol.

I never would have thought that!

[tommy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Sam Ruger

I did see a program on the history channel that showed the most common currency between people in a barter system is drinking alcohol. I never would have thought that!

that would make alot of sense because alcohol can clean a wound/make you forget about how bad things are/ use it as a pain killer/and even start a fire with it. hum i bet gold and silver can't do that. heck you can even use it to cook with if you are out of seasoning. i sugest storing up as many packs of yeast as you can and vacume seal them so they will last longer that way you'll always have the main in gredient to make your brew.

[XR750]

No I'm just buying copper,brass & blued steel.

[blueice]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Mooseman684

STock in companies is a hit or miss thing...I would never invest in Gold mining companies, as I have seen too many of them fail. I think Cambior is gonna open a huge mine about 75 miles north of me for Gold, platinum,and possibly chromium...

Mooseman, you must be referring to junior companies and those with no productions...They are several companies with excellent fundamentals, that one could invest in with complete confident.

[drtybykr]

Quote:       Originally Posted by XR750

No I'm just buying copper,brass & blued steel.

Glad I am not the only one!!

[blueice]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Sam Ruger

[/SIZE][/FONT] Gold speculators pay two different prices in order to speculate in gold. So do stock buyers. That’s why most of the posters here, on a survival forum, recognized that gold would be useless to own in a SHTF situation. You can’t eat it and you can’t buy anything with it. You might find yourself swapping an ounce of gold for a head of lettuce. Well, Sam, that is why there are silver coins...If the seller of lettuce, will not take a store of value, then perhaps she will take a bag of peanuts instead.. Now! In a SHTF situation where the Federal Reserve decides to pay off the national debt in printed currency and we get massive inflation, then owning gold will keep up with inflation. But, for that matter, so should your house. It is a common assumption that I am not prepared to assume. “Why” will be 7-8% annual inflation and “how high” will be 7-8% interest. I agree with your “When”.

It will all depend on who sits in the WH...

[blueice]

Gold is up +16 to 1151!

[mack310]

I haven't read through all these posts on "Who's buying gold?" but I am here to tell you that when the SHTF, gold is worthless as is silver. Ammo is the NEW CURRENCY of the 21st Century. Annything else is just worthless. Ammunition will get you whatgever else you need.

[Mooseman684]

So...when you run out of ammo and you come to my SHTF store , what are you gonna buy ammo with ? Or A new Gun with ?
I will be taking Gold as will the fuel guy, the food guy, etc...
Gold again Has NEVER been worth 0...It has had and will have its own economic place in a post SHTF world.
SO what will you pay with thats easy to tote around when paper is worthless?
An ounce of gold may get ya 2 rifles and several hundred rounds of ammo here...other than that , you better have something I really , Really need, or you are out of luck.

[blueice]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Sam Ruger

[/SIZE][/FONT] Who are all SPECULATORS. Institutions buy on behalf of private individuals. Do you think your local bank is buying gold? Smith-Barney? Goldman Sachs? Who cares if local banks are not buying gold....Gold buyers will be buying them.. Buying gold is done for jewelry first and as a hedge against currency devaluation second. It is used as a currency hedge due to the speed by which dollars can be converted to gold and then back again (That is, if you don’t take physical possession of it. If you take physical possession of it in bars, then those bars must be assayed when you want to convert to cash again, and you must pay that fee. There are also fees (called “premiums”) connected to buying and selling gold coins, usually $ 60 per ounce both ways.). A few weeks ago the Euro was falling but that did not affect the price we pay for gold either. It was been falling ever since your post and yes, it has indeed affected the price you pay for gold.... Due to gold’s ease of storage and the established trading markets, gold can/will rise as the US dollar falls and the current momentum is, indeed, downwards. The dollar is at a ten month high and will continue to climb as Europe implodes...Gold, at near a record high, closing at 1207.. Currency SPECULATORS will buy gold and hold it while the US dollar is falling and then convert it back to dollars at times when the US dollar stops falling or shows signs of strength. During this interval of SPECULATION the price of gold rises. Gold speculators pay two different prices in order to speculate in gold. First they must pay the assay fee or the premium. For example, the price of gold is around $ 1,125.00 an ounce today. With the $ 60 premium, a one ounce Krugerand would cost you $ 1,185.00 . To sell that same coin would cost you the $ 60 premium again. Therefore, just to break even, the price of gold must rise from the $ 1,125.00 price today to $ 1,245.00 in the future or by the $ 120 premium. Thus, if the price of gold rises 10%, you’ll do no better than break even. Generally, when a buyer sells, they receive the current spot price... The second price a gold speculator pays is that, as gold rises in value, there is another force dragging it back down. Jewelers currently cease buying gold if it rises above $ 1,200.00 an ounce. Outside of SPECULATORS, jewelers are the major purchaser of gold. Thus, as SPECULATORS bid the price above $ 1,200.00 they have no one else to it sell to except OTHER SPECULATORS. Thus, while SPECULATORS set the high end value of gold, jewelers set the low end value for gold – And there can be a huge difference between the two. Gold once rose to nearly $ 900.00 an ounce on SPECULATION. You show it in your chart below. What your chart doesn’t show is that it then fell back to $ 300.00 to the jeweler’s price. That was a 67% spread between what we can call the ARTIFICIAL price of gold and the ACTUAL price of gold. I am sure glad that you know what the artificial price of gold is... If you do, you could make a fortune on the short side.... Gold SPECULATORS buying at today’s prices are betting the price of gold will rise more than another 10% which will not happen if 1) interest rates are raised or 2) foreigners start buying US dollars. The first is almost certain to happen near the end of 2010 and the other is unpredictable. Gold is such an uncertainty that even China, the world’s biggest glutton for gold, only holds 2% of its reserves in gold. In the last month, gold has decoupled from the USD, Sam...As for China, they entered the gold market at a very late stage...After all, one can not purchase PMs with rice... Anyone buying gold today at the ARTIFICIAL price won’t have to wait too awfully long to see the ACTUAL price if things go as predicted interest rate wise. Frankly, the only thing I have agreed with....But by then, America could be experience inflation or other financial issues.. That’s why most of the posters here, on a survival forum, recognized that gold would be useless to own in a SHTF situation. You can’t eat it and you can’t buy anything with it. You might find yourself swapping an ounce of gold for a head of lettuce. Sorry,Sam, that only true in a deflationary environment...If it is the opposite I will be buy ten head of lettuce for your every one of yours.. Now! In a SHTF situation where the Federal Reserve decides to pay off the national debt in printed currency and we get massive inflation, then owning gold will keep up with inflation. But, for that matter, so should your house.

Housing, in general, provides very marginal returns...If America "gets" serious inflation, all PMs will out perform inflation or why else own them... Remember the late 70's and the early 80's.

A very large rally in today's gold market....

Low: 1172
High: 1212
Close: 1206


Gentlemen and ladies, it is still not to late to board the Gold Express...

Buy your ticket at the next station, before the train is sold out.....

[single shot]

You see what happened to oil. It will happen to gold if it gets bad! Buy lead its heavy too! I will sell the food but probably not for gold. Nothin' safer than a country boy with lead.

[blueice]

Quote:       Originally Posted by single shot

You see what happened to oil. It will happen to gold if it gets bad! Buy lead its heavy too! I will sell the food but probably not for gold. Nothin' safer than a country boy with lead.

I do believe it will be so, Single Shot...It is true for the past nine years that oil, US Dollar and gold tracked together, but in the last several months gold has parted ways...

Why? There has been no world wide increase in gold production since 1998 and in the interim demand has soared...Oil is declining because of a appreciating US Dollar...

The Euro crisis has given gold further strength, however, I believe that the underlying reason is that consumers do not trust their local currency nor the US Dollar and are seeking an alternative reserve currency....This trend is only beginning, since the world's economies are floating on massive and unsustainable debt...

A pandemic financial crisis of astounding magnitude is coming and the only vaccine will previous metals...

[BudW]

Lead will be worth more than Gold in a collapse, food,water,seeds, alternative energy source to name a few.

[blueice]

Quote:       Originally Posted by BudW

Lead will be worth more than Gold in a collapse, food,water,seeds, alternative energy source to name a few.

Gold will helf you purchase lead, food, water, seeds and energy in a collapse...

[stinkybriches]

1st im going to say i read some of this thread a few months ago and blame it for the massive stash of 1981 and earlier pennies ive collected. in all honesty, i think in an economic collapse, gold would recover its value very quickly, after everything panned out. now in the shtf scenario i think alot of people on this forum envision (and secretly hope for) i dont see gold being valuable for a long time. the scenario im talking about is total governmental colapse on a global scale. it might get "postman" ish but there would be alote of different warlords fighting over land and resorcess. eventually everything would settle down, warlords would turn to governers in some areas, monarchs in others, maybe even religious rule in some places, and at that point gold would once again become valuable. i dont see this last scenario as very likely personally.
either way gold strikes me as a safe way to store your wealth. oh and mooseman, if im wrong you should definatly consider opening up a wisconsin branch of you shtf store.