Around here .38S&W is not too difficult to find. A couple of the local shops usually have a box or two on the shelf, and there's always a bit at the gun shows.
The S&W is basically the same as the British .380/200. The cartridge case is identical, but most American S&W is loaded with lighter bullets than the British rounds. Typically 148 to 158 grains, vice 200 grains. It is not the same as .380 ACP, of course, which is a rimless cartridge.
American factory loaded .38S&W is safe to use in Webley revolvers. In some cases it will hit a bit low with the iron sights due to the lighter recoil.
he .38 S&W might be considered "weak" but I wouldn't call the .380/200 which the gun was designed for weak, it would normally do the job well as a last ditch defence.
My FIL used the .380/200 in a single shot rifle to kill many Red deer in the Scottish Highlands.
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How can I 'Soar with the Eagles' when I'm working with such 'Turkeys'!
he .38 S&W might be considered "weak" but I wouldn't call the .380/200 which the gun was designed for weak, it would normally do the job well as a last ditch defence.
My FIL used the .380/200 in a single shot rifle to kill many Red deer in the Scottish Highlands.
I don't doubt you were told that someone killed red deer with a .38/200 but if they told me that I would question it strongly.A .380 auto seems to have an advantage over the .380/200 and I cant emagine anyone even attempting to bring down an animal that the females run over 160lbs and the males are over 350lbs with a .380 auto.Actually both cartridges (.380/200 and .380auto,) can and is topped by the .22WRM.I believe you,I just do not believe him.I can't conceve one in fifty actually being killed with a .380/200.When you only have 650fps and less than 200ft lbs,I just can't conceve a hunter even attempting such a feat. (by the way,I wouldn't ask him to prove it as I would consider it mean and cruel. ,,,sam.
Good morning Sam,
Unfortunately the man in question is no longer with us but I have the rifle and don't doubt it at all. My FIL was one of the most prolific deer(& Salmon) poacher's in the Western Isles and was an ex WW11 Lovat Scout. I don't think he knew jack chit about muzzle energies or such but he did know how to sneak up close to things & kill them!
If I remember I'll look out the old rifle & take some photos when I get home, maybe even blow the cobwebs out of it just for fun.
Have a nice day,
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How can I 'Soar with the Eagles' when I'm working with such 'Turkeys'!
Was that a custom rifle made up for the .380/200 or did someome make it as a standard round? It would probably go about 750 to 800 fps from a rifle length barrel and be very quiet. A 200 grain 38 cal bullet at that speed would most likely penetrate a deers skull at close range. I have made up squibb loads for a number of rifles. That .380/200 would be a lot of fun.
Was that a custom rifle made up for the .380/200 or did someome make it as a standard round? It would probably go about 750 to 800 fps from a rifle length barrel and be very quiet. A 200 grain 38 cal bullet at that speed would most likely penetrate a deers skull at close range. I have made up squibb loads for a number of rifles. That .380/200 would be a lot of fun.
I believe the rifle is actually an old .360 Rook rifle modified for the .38/200.
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How can I 'Soar with the Eagles' when I'm working with such 'Turkeys'!
I "googled up" on the Rook rifle. That's an interesting rifle! I keep forgetting that .38 caliber is actually .36 caliber.
I'd love to see those pictures!
So ... can you find commercial .38/200? Is it a good idea to fire it out of the older revolvers?
If'n I remember when I get home I'll drag the rifle out and take a few piccys.
I don't know of anyone who supplied that calibre any more; we occasionally come across the odd box of WW11 milsurp 38/200 11z.
Never bothered me firing it out of my old Enfield when I had one.
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How can I 'Soar with the Eagles' when I'm working with such 'Turkeys'!
I don't doubt you were told that someone killed red deer with a .38/200 but if they told me that I would question it strongly... I believe you,I just do not believe him.I can't conceve one in fifty actually being killed with a .380/200.When you only have 650fps and less than 200ft lbs,I just can't conceve a hunter even attempting such a feat. (by the way,I wouldn't ask him to prove it as I would consider it mean and cruel. ,,,sam.
I have an English .380 Rook Rifle which was originally chambered for a blackpowder cartridge dimensionally interchangible with the .380 British service revolver, cal. .380 Mk.II, used in the No. 2 Enfield, Webley & Scott and S&W Victory Model Hand Ejectors of WWII era.
When fired from the 25 inch rifle barrel modern smokeless powder .38 S&W 146-gr. lead factory loads which give about 650 f.p.s. in a typical revolver, develop almost 900 f.p.s.
The WWII era 173-gr. FMJ .380 Mk.IIz WWII service loads and later Indian Army loads from the Kirkee Arsenal made in 1984 develop give lower subsonic rifle velocities in the 850-880 f.p.s. range, but with very low noise, akin to banging the bottom of a 5 gallon plastic bucket with a wooden stick. It sounds more like a balloon popping than a gun going off.
I have taken more than a dozen small deer with the rook rifle, which is legal where I am, and I consider it quite adequate within certain limitations. Most animals were taken at close range, "garden" distances from 25-40 yards. I use handloads with a 175-grain bullet with large flat nose, cast from soft lead approximating 1:30. Velocity approaches 900 f,.p.s. These mild loads penetrate through and through from any angle, breaking large bones easily. They kill small deer less than 100 pounds easily if you shoot at reasonable range and pick your shots well. It is certainly as effective as using a .45 cal. patched ball muzzleloader at the same distance.
Later I rechambered this rifle to use more common .38 Special ammunition. Lead bullet factory loads both standard and +P shoot very well, in the order of 2 inch groups at 50 yards firing with the iron sights, and about 1-1/2 inches when using a 3X Unertl small game scope. Despite the nominal .358 diameter bullets being undersized to fit the rifle's .366 groove diameter, the soft bullets and fast powder used enable bullets to upset and take the rifling. Factory Winchester, Remington or Federal 148-gr. target wadcutters are "silent but deadly" having a measured peak pressure decibel reading of only 78dB when measured at 1 meter from the muzzle. Their instrumental velocity at 15 ft. is about 880 f.p.s. when fired from the Rook rifle, while their energy when fired from a rifle length barrel approximates that of .38 Special +P fired from a 4 inch revolver.
Blunt, flat-nosed, soft lead wadcutter bullets have great penetration, having a larger frontal area for optimum "crush" and are much more effective than a semi-wadcutter. The Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. lead hollowpoint +P "FBI load" is as heavy a loading as I dare shoot in this tiny 4 lb. rifle, so I use very few of them, only when necessary for flatter trajectory for longer shots out at the 75-yard far edge of the garden. This load is VERY effective on game and delivers impressive .58 to .65 cal. expansion. Velocity is about 1090 f.p.s. from the rifle. Also fairly quiet at 85dB, about like firing a .22 sporter with high velocity ammunition. On deer it leaves thumb-sized exits on broadside shots. No lack of penetration.
While not your first choice of a deer rifle, a long barreled .38 Special or .357 Magnum rifle firing heavy, blunt-nosed subsonic bullets is quite adequate as a subsistance farmer, backwoods home and country gentleman's walking gun and garden rifle to control deer for crop damage. I fill my tags every year and eat right up to the bullet hole!
I don't know of anyone who supplied that calibre any more; we occasionally come across the odd box of WW11 milsurp 38/200 11z.
I guess you mean the .380 Ball Mk2Z. The 38/200 that the revolver was designed for was never used because of fears about its legality. (Unjacketed, round nose.) The rounds that were actually issued were the one above (nitro loaded) and the .380 Ball Mk2 (Cordite) both with a 174 gn, jacketed bullet.
I used to load my own 38/200s and an extremely accurate round it was due the bullet's length and shape giving a very long bearing surface. I still have a box of a hundred 200 gn. bullets somewhere.
When using commercial ammunition, I'd stick to lead bullets. I found that the jacketed stuff, like 2Z, was nowhere near as accurate.
Last edited by Beerhunter; 10-01-2009 at 10:14 AM.
.380 Rook Rifle 
