[lvlt]

from cyrano
"I've seen a lot of surveys that have police saying they would not attempt to enforce a gun confiscation scheme, and the USMC is on record as saying such an order would be illegal and would not be obeyed. I presume the other services see the issue the same way, and would not obey orders that contravene"
where is the usmc on record that they say such an order would be illegal? will u send a link? constitutional lawyers will have argued this before the supreme court, and if the ruling went that way it would be legal and the marine corps will do as ordered, just like always
do you believe in the oath takers myth? how dependable could people be if they swore 2 opposing oaths.

pat

[JimBob]

Quote:       Originally Posted by lvlt

from cyrano "I've seen a lot of surveys that have police saying they would not attempt to enforce a gun confiscation scheme, and the USMC is on record as saying such an order would be illegal and would not be obeyed. I presume the other services see the issue the same way, and would not obey orders that contravene" where is the usmc on record that they say such an order would be illegal? will u send a link? constitutional lawyers will have argued this before the supreme court, and if the ruling went that way it would be legal and the marine corps will do as ordered, just like always do you believe in the oath takers myth? how dependable could people be if they swore 2 opposing oaths. pat

Baring a total breakdown in this country the Posse Comitatus act as currently written forbids the use of regular U.S. military forces to act as police in domestic situations.It would take a change of the Constitution to do otherwise.The military take their oath to support the Constittution,not the President or Congress.The National Guard could be called out but only by the Governor of their state for service in that state.A lot of this stuff floating around on the net is based on rumours and half truths designed to inflame everyone for one reason or another.The USMC or any other regular military force could not be used to enforce any law against the citizenry without being in violation of the Constitution.

[Ten Man]

Quote:       Originally Posted by JimBob

.....The USMC or any other regular military force could not be used to enforce any law against the citizenry without being in violation of the Constitution.

And just how many ways is the Constitution being violated NOW on a daily basis? I've lost count.

You think that a tyrannical government, hell bent on staying in power, is going to worry about one more violation of the Constitution?

Get a grip, man.

[ArkansasHunter]

Quote:       Originally Posted by woody1981

+1 jmp8927--> I think the 2010 elections will see a lot of the politicians who're causing trouble to be ousted in favor of the more conservative crowd. Did anybody see Senator Arlen Spector's meeting yesterday in Lebanon Pennsylvania over the health care bill? He got his clock cleaned by nearly everyone there. He just stood somewhat dumbfounded. He is on borrowed time, and will most likely NOT be reelected. He always was too liberal of a Republican, and now went off the deep end by changing to the Democrat party, where he fits better. Goodbye, Arlen. Does anybody else have a member of the House or Senate who is on the cusp?

Woody I posted a video of this meeting today at one of these threads.
it could be this one...A.H

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by woody1981

+1 jmp8927--> I think the 2010 elections will see a lot of the politicians who're causing trouble to be ousted in favor of the more conservative crowd. Did anybody see Senator Arlen Spector's meeting yesterday in Lebanon Pennsylvania over the health care bill? He got his clock cleaned by nearly everyone there. He just stood somewhat dumbfounded. He is on borrowed time, and will most likely NOT be reelected. He always was too liberal of a Republican, and now went off the deep end by changing to the Democrat party, where he fits better. Goodbye, Arlen. Does anybody else have a member of the House or Senate who is on the cusp?

Do you guys know what abusing your elected representatives in public will get you? Nothing good. It'll encourage them to avoid you and hide in their Washington bubble, where they don't get screamed at and called names.

I'm not putting big money on it, but my guess is that Specter will be reelected. If he is, he won't have any kind memories of the people who were so rude to him; he's human. They won't have helped their cause one bit by venting at him and carrying on.

[kansascoyote]

Quote:       Originally Posted by troy2000

If you've become that bitter and cynical about every single person in a position of power or responsibility, we might want to pause for a minute and consider who really needs the prayers.

You really have a way with distorting the words to make them fit you ideas . You should run for office you got the spin part down pat .

[Cyrano]

Quote:       Originally Posted by troy2000

There are limits on what can legally be done under martial law in this country. If you're saying what the laws say will become irrelevant under martial law, you don't think much of the millions of people in our government and our armed forces. They aren't some occupying force and puppet government; they're your fellow Americans. Have a little more faith in them than that.

You make a good point, Troy; but what I think people are saying is that they don't have a whole lot of faith in the people who would be giving the armed forces their marching orders in such an event. It's one thing to deploy the National Guard to prevent looting after a hurricane, or for a city to ask the government for help in restoring order and getting a battalion of Marine regulars, as happened in Watts in 1965. It's what happens when the military is called out to maintain what the yankee gummint calls 'order' by invoking martial law when the people are protesting what that yankee gummint is doing that worries me. That's a different issue altogether.

[Cyrano]

Quote:       Originally Posted by lvlt

from cyrano "I've seen a lot of surveys that have police saying they would not attempt to enforce a gun confiscation scheme, and the USMC is on record as saying such an order would be illegal and would not be obeyed. I presume the other services see the issue the same way, and would not obey orders that contravene" where is the usmc on record that they say such an order would be illegal? will u send a link? constitutional lawyers will have argued this before the supreme court, and if the ruling went that way it would be legal and the marine corps will do as ordered, just like always do you believe in the oath takers myth? how dependable could people be if they swore 2 opposing oaths. pat

I don't know that a link exists, but you can find the answer if you spend enough time reading newspapers in libraries from 1994-1995.

It was an outgrowth of the Slick Willy Gun Ban. After it passed, the Clintons (I lump the two Slickies together as one revolting whole) had a survey made of Marine Corps units, mostly on the West Coast. Buried in amongst the camouflaging garbage about assignments, weapons and whatnot was the question they wanted answered. "If an order was given to confiscate privately owned firearms from the citizens of the United States, would you obey it?"

The response of the Marines, from general officers to privates, was "No." Many responses explained with varying degrees of eloquence that such an order would be illegal so long as the Second Amendment is the law of the land, and that Marines are not obliged to obey illegal orders no matter who issues them. Friends of mine who have served in the Corps say that there are lectures on legal and illegal orders, and the Constitutional basis for some of these gets discussed from time to time. The Marines want their grunts to understand what it is they are sworn to uphold.

I believe this, plus the backlash against the 1994 AWB that gave the Republicans control of both houses of Congress, was one reason the Clintons did not continue trying to advance their gun ban agenda.

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by kansascoyote

You really have a way with distorting the words to make them fit you ideas . You should run for office you got the spin part down pat .

Well, let's take another look at what you said:

Quote:      

The idiots we have in washington all of them not just you wacko freinds hell no I don't trust them any more than hit your house from here with a sling shot. If you do well what can I say . I will pray for you twice tonight.

I don't need to distort those words. I repeat: when you start dumping every single person in Washington into the same bucket of scum like that, I don't think I'm the one who needs prayers.

I don't notice you saying optimistic or cheerful things in these discussions; your contributions lean heavily toward cynicism, hatred of the government and everyone in it, and a belief that the world is going to Hell in a hand basket.

There's a difference between maintaining a healthy skepticism, and allowing yourself to be consumed by disillusionment with the imperfections of this world and the people in it. I think you should lighten up a little.

[JimBob]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Ten Man

And just how many ways is the Constitution being violated NOW on a daily basis? I've lost count. You think that a tyrannical government, hell bent on staying in power, is going to worry about one more violation of the Constitution? Get a grip, man.

Can you furnish factual information of where in the United States that regular U.S. military forces are being used to enforce civil law and what the law being enforced is.

[TinCan Assasin]

Quote:       Originally Posted by DaTeacha

Food for thought - The Department of Homeland Security is providing free training in riot and crowd control, coupled with 3 days of time and transportation to the training site, plus CEU credit for any and all LEO's through their departments. This information is via an email from my local militiaist, who included a series of emails between him and an LE training officer here in Ohio. Does this portend some level of preparation for use of this training soon? According to him, it is yet another warning sign that there will soon be occasion to use force to quell civil unrest. Has anyone else here heard about this training? How about those here with ties to LE? Why would Homeland Security be offering it? That does not seem to be in their area of responsibility.

No disrespect intended, Teach, but at least in Miami, cops go through riot control training all the time. Back when I still had hair, I was a Police Explorer. The explorers would play the protesters, and the MDPD got to practice on us. This was back in the late 80's early 90's. Riot control is a normal part of any city cop's training.

Maybe rural cops, too, just to keep current. Alot of city cops will semi-retire to the sticks after awhile.

TCA

[ACfixer]

Quote:       Originally Posted by troy2000

I repeat: when you start dumping every single person in Washington into the same bucket of scum like that...

I really do think it would be easier to count those that don't belong in that bucket Troy, on both sides of the aisle in fact.

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by ACfixer

I really do think it would be easier to count those that don't belong in that bucket Troy, on both sides of the aisle in fact.

I think most of them are somewhere in the middle, myself. They aren't averse to helping themselves and their friends where they can. But I think they also try to pass bills they think will do the country some good.

One of the problems with our current system is the cost of running for office. If a Congressman doesn't start collecting campaign contributions for the next election before he's even sworn in for his current one, he's behind the eight ball.

That means his primary job becomes fund raising, and it's a bloody miracle anything useful at all gets done in between.

[DaTeacha]

Re Specter -- this guy is an example of the opportunistic politician who is in it for himself and himself alone. He has ridden the fence since day one, starting out as a conservative Dem, becoming Republican, then switching back, all in answer to how he perceived the political winds to be blowing. He switched this time because he almost lost the primary and figured he would surely lose the primary this time around. Running as a Democrat, he figures he has a better chance to get re-elected. All he cares about is his career.

The thing that bothers me about this whole situation is that Homeland Security is providing the training, it's personally and professionally beneficial and profitable to the officer to sign up, and all costs are covered. This means everyone who participates gets exactly the same training, with no individualization or specialization for the type of environment in which they work. How is riot control fit for New York going to be useful to a sheriff's deputy in rural Ohio? And why is it provided by Homeland Security? Why not provide a grant for each state to organize specialized training for the officers there and keep the feds out of it? H.S. training smacks of H.S. giving orders or shipping LEOs to different jurisdictions, working with guys they don't know for "crowd control" figuring they will follow orders better (read without feeling guilty) if they don't know the people on the other side of the yellow tape nor the man next to them.

And please don't tell me things can't get out of control on the Law and Order side. I graduated from Kent State in '67. My in-laws lived in Kent during the riots that led to the shootings which some of you may remember. There is still a bullet hole from an M-1 in one of the sculptures next to the Art Building on Blanket Hill. I'm not saying the demonstrators were right - I think they were misled by SDS and others who mysteriously tended to fade away when things got really cooking - but I don't think the lives of the Guardsmen were actually in danger when that first shot sounded out. The guys responded as trained and innocent people, kids walking to class and not even paying attention to the demonstration, got shot. I'm not saying the first shot wasn't a cherry bomb, I'm not saying it wasn't a .45. I don't know who made the first "bang" happen. I do know the results of the training the guardsmen had were not pretty and I am uneasy with the idea of having "trained" LEOs around a demonstration in my town, if such were to happen. This is a conservative rural farm oriented town with a liberal college populated mostly by city kids from the east coast or other countries in the middle of it, so there is an interesting ideological mix. It is generally a very good symbiotic relationship, but I can see how it could get ugly if folks start getting really worked up something. It was not pretty here when W came through town. The college kids were demonstrating against him, some waving borderline obscene signs and such, while the locals were saluting and waving flags and just thrilled to have him in town.

On another topic, the former leaders of SDS who caused so much trouble in the 60's are now working under the aegis of ACORN, in one or more of the numerous mysteriously linked subdivisions of that somewhat infamous organization. They are still trying to destroy "the machine", but this time it is by overwhelming the social assistance network. These guys want to put more and more people on government assistance (read dependency) to bankrupt the system with predictable consequences.

[jimkim]

From what I've seen, Washington is a bucket of scum. My GreatGrandFather once said, "never trust ANYONE who has served more than one term in Washington". He said, "anyone who does not leave after his first term is corrupt". His theory was, you can't roll around in garbage without acquiring the same stench.

[magicjeep]

Back on the subject, a few years ago there was a class offered in New Mexico about bombs and explosives. It was offered by Homeland Security and was completely paid for by them, airfare, hotel, car rental and a daily stipend for food. The department (fire) was even repaid for whatever we were paid while out there.

Some of the guys that went said they didnt learn much but they got to seem a bunch of things blow up. I think these classes are just a way for Homeland Security to make it seem like they are busy doing things to keep us safe.

[kansascoyote]

Quote:       Originally Posted by magicjeep

Back on the subject, a few years ago there was a class offered in New Mexico about bombs and explosives. It was offered by Homeland Security and was completely paid for by them, airfare, hotel, car rental and a daily stipend for food. The department (fire) was even repaid for whatever we were paid while out there. Some of the guys that went said they didnt learn much but they got to seem a bunch of things blow up. I think these classes are just a way for Homeland Security to make it seem like they are busy doing things to keep us safe.

Minor correction :Payed for by you and me.

[kansascoyote]

It is simpley amazing to me how some people completly change their tune about goverment when their team is winning . Both amazing and sickning !

[magicjeep]

True kansas. See they got me thinking like them now.

[HEMI]

Don't buy your tin foil at the dollar store, tooo thin for hats!