[SKS NOOB]

Quote:       Originally Posted by tlarkin

Maybe, but I think that attitude has always been there, we are just more aware of it now because of mass media.

More like, more reinforced due to past events. Even if it has no foundation.

One also has to look at the cultural changes from then and now. There were definitely TOTALLY different attitudes then. Some of these people I think have watched too many of those post apocalyptic movies of the 80's and think society will go that route if we don't take guns of the streets. Others think it will if we do.

[tlarkin]

Quote:       Originally Posted by SKS NOOB

More like, more reinforced due to past events. Even if it has no foundation. One also has to look at the cultural changes from then and now. There were definitely TOTALLY different attitudes then. Some of these people I think have watched too many of those post apocalyptic movies of the 80's and think society will go that route if we don't take guns of the streets. Others think it will if we do.

I dunno man there was plenty of violence and crime say 100 years ago, in fact it is around the same percentage, we have just started to grow a lot in numbers population wise. So, 10% of a lower number is a lot lower than it is now. 10% was just a number I used as an example. If you study crime statistics though, they are pretty much steady with the population growth.

I don't think we ever really had "the good old days," and I think most of that is just myth we try to tell ourselves.

[chesterwin]

A lot of us used to carry guns to school. Usually it was because we had been on a morning duck hunt or were going deer hunting in the afternoon. It was no big deal. They were left locked in the vehicles and no one even thought about taking one into the school itself.

I've found that teaching a child about a firearm at an early age, even today, gives them an awareness and appreciation or awe and respect. Those that have no knowledge or training are "curious" and want to satisfy that curiosity. Most often, the curious or untrained ones are the horror stories we often hear about in the media.

The "good ole days" are every day. In days gone by it was socially acceptable for a man or woman to carry a pocket or purse gun. Firearms were even disguised as everyday items such as walking canes. It was acceptable to be able to defend oneself whether against a vicious animal or robber/mugger.

Things change with time for reasons sometimes forgotten. For instance, some folks don't realize the reason firearm suppressors now require a federal licence is that during the depression of the last century it was a request by game law enforcement to help them fight poaching. Up until then it was considered to be good manners and sporting to use a suppressor so as to not disturb the neighbors.

Over the last couple of decades it is again becoming more socially acceptable to be able to defend oneself. I personally hope this trend continues. I, for one, would like to see firearms training returned to the school system. School shooting teams brought back as a viable sport. My first hunter safty course was in the 5th grade although because of a family value of hunting I was introduced to firearms at a much, much, younger age.

[Rambo]

Societies evolve. Only the dead never change, except for the decomposing part, but they're still dead. It's part of human nature to adapt. Live with it.

[SKS NOOB]

Quote:       Originally Posted by tlarkin

I dunno man there was plenty of violence and crime say 100 years ago, in fact it is around the same percentage, we have just started to grow a lot in numbers population wise. So, 10% of a lower number is a lot lower than it is now. 10% was just a number I used as an example. If you study crime statistics though, they are pretty much steady with the population growth. I don't think we ever really had "the good old days," and I think most of that is just myth we try to tell ourselves.

Or maybe it's because when we are young, we aren't as aware of the world as we are now? The world changes in more than one way when we become an older adult, (i.e., 30's 40's or older)

[woody1981]

Quote:       Originally Posted by tlarkin

this is satire and mostly hyperbolic. I work in a school district and have for the past 4 years. It is nothing like mentioned, and anything similar is extremely exaggerated.

Sorry, but I have an experience with my grandson when he was in 3rd grade (yup, 3rd grade) in a KC elementary school, in which the police were called because he and his friend said, exactly, "I'm gonna' kill you." "No, I'm gonna' kill YOU." They were kidding around, no weapons, not even pencils. In addition to the police having to show up to handle the matter, largely a waste of their time, both sets of parents were called, the children had to go home for the day, and the youngster who said this first got 3 days suspension. Imagine, 3rd grade. This was about 2 years ago.

[tlarkin]

Quote:       Originally Posted by woody1981

Sorry, but I have an experience with my grandson when he was in 3rd grade (yup, 3rd grade) in a KC elementary school, in which the police were called because he and his friend said, exactly, "I'm gonna' kill you." "No, I'm gonna' kill YOU." They were kidding around, no weapons, not even pencils. In addition to the police having to show up to handle the matter, largely a waste of their time, both sets of parents were called, the children had to go home for the day, and the youngster who said this first got 3 days suspension. Imagine, 3rd grade. This was about 2 years ago.

You are right and there are exceptions. At the district I work for some kid shot another kid (each around 14 years old) about 4 blocks from one of the schools. The threat is real, but the other school district I used to work for in the burbs it never got shut down. One kid actually got caught with a gun in the parking lot of that old district I worked at and we never went on lock down. The SROs on the scene arrested the kid and brought him in immediately. The school went on alert but it wasn't locked down and the swat team and FBI never showed up.

I am not saying it doesn't happen, I am just saying this whole thread is very hyperbolic is all.

[Coeloptera]

Quote:       Originally Posted by tlarkin

Maybe, but I think that attitude has always been there, we are just more aware of it now because of mass media.

I honestly don't know, it could be somewhat regional.

I was in high school from 1990 - 1993 and it honestly seems as if things have gotten more stringent since then in at least some cases.

They could very well be the exceptions, but I'm not so far removed from high school that mymmeories are fuzzy with age yet.

- Coeloptera

[tlarkin]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Coeloptera

I honestly don't know, it could be somewhat regional. I was in high school from 1990 - 1993 and it honestly seems as if things have gotten more stringent since then in at least some cases. They could very well be the exceptions, but I'm not so far removed from high school that mymmeories are fuzzy with age yet. - Coeloptera

It is. All the gang related ones happen in the ghetto and all the mass shootings happen in suburbia. That is just how the statistics have been over the last decade.

In the inner city one gang banger kills another, and that is it. In suburbia some kid goes nuts and shoots every kid he can at school then shoots himself.

[cremley]

Quote:       Originally Posted by tlarkin

this is satire and mostly hyperbolic. I work in a school district and have for the past 4 years. It is nothing like mentioned, and anything similar is extremely exaggerated.

Well, When I graduated in 2007, it was much like what Bro Bob originally posted. It may have been slightly exaggerated but there wasn't much of a difference. In 2004, our school got locked down because a few football players and a wannabe gang had a fight in the back of the school. The fight was broken up within minutes but a teacher was airlifted to the hospital after some kid brought a bat and another was badly injured. The entire school was locked down for three hours. Everything was over and done with within 30 minutes but we were all stuck in random class rooms and half of our day was wasted. All of the fighters were suspended an a few expelled. Police were roaming our school for weeks. At least they didn't put up metal detectors like they did at the high school across town.

Another instance in 2002, a year before I started high school, a kid brought an AK-47 to school to go shooting after school. It was locked in his trunk. Apparently, someone saw it when he was getting his backpack out and the security guards were called. Police were everywhere in minutes and the kid was expelled and went to prison. I don't remember the sentencing. I am pretty sure the school was shut down for the day.

So if this is not extreme to you, then we really have fallen a long way.

[DaTeacha]

I graduated from high school in '63. A kid in my graduating class used his shop class to turn a steel cannon barrel on a lathe. He put in some extra time in chemistry class to make his own black powder. He turned aluminum or some other soft metal into bullets in shop class. With the shop teacher watching, he loaded up the cannon, stuck a fuse in the touch hole, lit it, and hit a telephone pole from 50 feet, first shot. We had a rifle team using military issue Remington .22 rifles, shooting all the standard positions. We used the art room for the indoor range.

I began teaching in Flint city schools in 1967. We had race riots in the area during the time of assassinations, major problems with kids fighting, jumping each other, etc. I moved to teach in Muskegon, another inner city junior high. We had walkouts, gangs roaming the hall, etc. I had a girl whom I had taken to the principal in a hammerlock after she punched me (twice) grab a chair and throw it at me. We had a kid bring daddy's loaded .38 to school in a lunch bag because his friends were picking on him and he wanted them to stop.

I then (1972) moved to a rural district where I taught hunter safety, gunstock repair, and basic reloading during lunch time "mini-classes". I had several kids bring their rifles to school on the bus for the gunstock refinishing and repair class. I used my Model 12 and live ammunition to shoot cans and clays across from the school during the hunter safety class.

I moved home to Ohio in '77. The FFA kids meet a couple times a year at a graduate's house to shoot clays. The kids wear hunting or shooting shirts and no one cares. Guns are not allowed within 1000 feet of the school by state law. We had a kid expelled because he was waving his airsoft pistol out a car window in the parking lot, violating our zero tolerance policy. The kids can get in serious trouble for a pocket knife.

All the paranoia I see came about after Columbine. Society just went nuts in overreacting to publicity associated with that scenario. We have mandatory lock-down drills but at least the local LEOs (after 10 years) recognize that it is not the best move to simply hide in your room. They have changed from "wait for SWAT" to having the first 3 LEOs on the scene enter with the sole purpose of locating and neutralizing the threat. They (finally) applaud my longstanding proactive stance in guarding my door against entry. If it comes down to an actual incident, they will step over injured or dead people, maintaining radio contact with one another, and sweep the building until they find and neutralize the BGs. All LEOs in the county have trained together for this type of action, and all will work together, whether a tiny town cop on the way past the school from a court date or a state trooper on road patrol, when the call goes out, they all proceed to the school in question and the first 3 on the scene enter the building as a coordinated team.

Each school is a case unto itself with regard to policies about weapons and such. Each school board is a governmental unit able to make it's own rules within state guidelines. The local boards typically reflect the attitudes of their communities. Rural communities tend to be more homogenous than urban ones, partly due to the fact that they are often smaller. This leads to less contentious situations within the schools.

My daughter teaches in a 7/8 building in Cicero, Illinois. Gangs are a major concern among the 3000 kids in the building. She had a kid find 3 loaded cartridges in a desk last year, but it did not result in a lock down of the entire building. The district to my immediate south had a then 13 year old write a death threat against another student on the bathroom mirror with marker and the building was locked down and evacuated for the rest of the day. It was just in the paper last week that the kid doing the writing (3 similar incidents before he got caught) has had his day in court and will be going to the juvenile attention center for a while, which is basically jail for juveniles but you go to school during the day.

So yeah, schools are different. Society is different, too. Instead of Ozzie and Harriet, we have Law and Order, CSI, and other shows depicting serious amounts of blood, guts, and gore. Instead of the FCC growling at a TV show where someone says "damn", we have all kinds of language that is accepted. Instead of showing Elvis from the waist up because of his dancing style, we have "Dancing with the Stars" with supposedly adult people dressed in carefully placed bits of fabric grinding their groins together.

Because society has grown so much more tolerant of depicting sex and violence in the entertainment media, kids don't think much about it being so terribly wrong and are more likely to be casual about doing someone else serious bodily harm. We end up with some pretty extreme policies being put in place in response to parents who are either worried about their kid or can't control their kid and they want the schools to fix it for them instead of taking steps to do it themselves.

[thrillbilly]

I graduated in 2000 from a very small rural school. There were 27 people in my class. We carried guns in our trucks, and all us boys had a pocketknife. We would bring .22 cartridges to shop class and "pop" them with the welders.
I was in H.S. during Columbine and Jonsboro (my cousin was in the class in Jonsboro...it was her teacher who was killed). The shootings led to lots of new regulations, my principal just told us privately that he knew our guns were for hunting, and asked us to keep them out of sight. Principal Morrow also whipped kids with a paddle all the way up to 2000. I'm not sure how it is now, it scarily enough has been almost 10 years since I graduated...How Time Flies!

[chesterwin]

Quote:       Originally Posted by DaTeacha

I graduated from high school in '63. A kid in my graduating class used his shop class to turn a steel cannon barrel on a lathe. He put in some extra time in chemistry class to make his own black powder. He turned aluminum or some other soft metal into bullets in shop class. With the shop teacher watching, he loaded up the cannon, stuck a fuse in the touch hole, lit it, and hit a telephone pole from 50 feet, first shot. We had a rifle team using military issue Remington .22 rifles, shooting all the standard positions. We used the art room for the indoor range. I began teaching in Flint city schools in 1967. We had race riots in the area during the time of assassinations, major problems with kids fighting, jumping each other, etc. I moved to teach in Muskegon, another inner city junior high. We had walkouts, gangs roaming the hall, etc. I had a girl whom I had taken to the principal in a hammerlock after she punched me (twice) grab a chair and throw it at me. We had a kid bring daddy's loaded .38 to school in a lunch bag because his friends were picking on him and he wanted them to stop. I then (1972) moved to a rural district where I taught hunter safety, gunstock repair, and basic reloading during lunch time "mini-classes". I had several kids bring their rifles to school on the bus for the gunstock refinishing and repair class. I used my Model 12 and live ammunition to shoot cans and clays across from the school during the hunter safety class. I moved home to Ohio in '77. The FFA kids meet a couple times a year at a graduate's house to shoot clays. The kids wear hunting or shooting shirts and no one cares. Guns are not allowed within 1000 feet of the school by state law. We had a kid expelled because he was waving his airsoft pistol out a car window in the parking lot, violating our zero tolerance policy. The kids can get in serious trouble for a pocket knife. All the paranoia I see came about after Columbine. Society just went nuts in overreacting to publicity associated with that scenario. We have mandatory lock-down drills but at least the local LEOs (after 10 years) recognize that it is not the best move to simply hide in your room. They have changed from "wait for SWAT" to having the first 3 LEOs on the scene enter with the sole purpose of locating and neutralizing the threat. They (finally) applaud my longstanding proactive stance in guarding my door against entry. If it comes down to an actual incident, they will step over injured or dead people, maintaining radio contact with one another, and sweep the building until they find and neutralize the BGs. All LEOs in the county have trained together for this type of action, and all will work together, whether a tiny town cop on the way past the school from a court date or a state trooper on road patrol, when the call goes out, they all proceed to the school in question and the first 3 on the scene enter the building as a coordinated team. Each school is a case unto itself with regard to policies about weapons and such. Each school board is a governmental unit able to make it's own rules within state guidelines. The local boards typically reflect the attitudes of their communities. Rural communities tend to be more homogenous than urban ones, partly due to the fact that they are often smaller. This leads to less contentious situations within the schools. My daughter teaches in a 7/8 building in Cicero, Illinois. Gangs are a major concern among the 3000 kids in the building. She had a kid find 3 loaded cartridges in a desk last year, but it did not result in a lock down of the entire building. The district to my immediate south had a then 13 year old write a death threat against another student on the bathroom mirror with marker and the building was locked down and evacuated for the rest of the day. It was just in the paper last week that the kid doing the writing (3 similar incidents before he got caught) has had his day in court and will be going to the juvenile attention center for a while, which is basically jail for juveniles but you go to school during the day. So yeah, schools are different. Society is different, too. Instead of Ozzie and Harriet, we have Law and Order, CSI, and other shows depicting serious amounts of blood, guts, and gore. Instead of the FCC growling at a TV show where someone says "damn", we have all kinds of language that is accepted. Instead of showing Elvis from the waist up because of his dancing style, we have "Dancing with the Stars" with supposedly adult people dressed in carefully placed bits of fabric grinding their groins together. Because society has grown so much more tolerant of depicting sex and violence in the entertainment media, kids don't think much about it being so terribly wrong and are more likely to be casual about doing someone else serious bodily harm. We end up with some pretty extreme policies being put in place in response to parents who are either worried about their kid or can't control their kid and they want the schools to fix it for them instead of taking steps to do it themselves.

^+1,000 Excellent post!!!

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by tlarkin

Maybe, but I think that attitude has always been there, we are just more aware of it now because of mass media.

It isn't just expanded awareness. While the piece is obviously satire, it's using hyperbole to make a valid point. The point is that over-reaction seems to be standard policy too often these days.

When I was in school, I never heard of a kid getting expelled for violating 'zero-tolerance' policies by bringing an aspirin or gun-shaped charm bracelet bangle to school. I certainly never heard of a high school ROTC student getting expelled for leaving a mock drill rifle in her car after practice, as happened a few months ago.

My older son got suspended in the sixth grade about ten years ago, for fighting back when a bully jumped him, instead of allowing himself to be beaten and then reporting it. Of course, I cornered the vice-principal in his office the same afternoon, and my son went to school as usual the next day. But I shouldn't have had to intervene.

[White Rook]

My children's school has a no fighting policy also. They are both Black Belts and their instructor's number one rule was "There is no First Strike". I told them as long as they didn't start the fight they had my permission to end the fight. I told them I would deal with the school if that situation ever came up. No one should have to take a beating because it against the schools policy to defend yourself....

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by White Rook

My children's school has a no fighting policy also. They are both Black Belts and their instructor's number one rule was "There is no First Strike". I told them as long as they didn't start the fight they had my permission to end the fight. I told them I would deal with the school if that situation ever came up. No one should have to take a beating because it against the schools policy to defend yourself....

I asked the idiot at my son's school if he would tell his own son to meekly allow himself to be beaten without trying to fight back, and he actually said, "we're discussing the rules I enforce here as vice-principal, not what I would tell my own child as a father."

I told him, "well, I'm speaking as a father." And then things got a little heated....

What you told your sons is basically what my dad told me: "I don't ever want to hear of you starting a fight. But if you get into one, I expect you to finish it or go down trying. We don't roll over for anyone."

[DaTeacha]

Our policy is enforced on a situational basis by the assistant principal. Generally, if there is an actual fight that needs more than stern words from a staff member to stop, both individuals will get some time out - 3 days or up to 10, depending on the individuals history, the teacher's story of what transpired, etc.

If it is not quite a fight, but likely would have been had the staff member not been there, both individuals might be getting detention time unless there is an obvious aggressor and victim. We don't see much in the way of actual fights in school. If two kids are intent on duking it out, they usually do so somewhere else. Those that occur in school are usually something they both hope will get stopped before it gets out of hand, thus allowing both kids to save face in a literal and metaphorical sense.

Most of the kids in the high school are smart enough to know that fighting when you're that size and in a room full of furniture or near floor to ceiling glass is something that could leave you with body parts that hurt for the rest of your life. The little freshmen, on the other hand, suffer mightily from small man syndrome and are like little firecrackers sometimes. You just kind of tuck one under each arm and walk to the office with 'em.

[Oxford]

DaTecha...I applaud your post above. I've been in similar school scenario's, started in 1960, though. Working in a rural community then, having guns in my shop class was hardly noticed. Students were motivated to make stocks for them...and of course, they usually brought the complete gun with them to class. It's totally different now, especially after serious incidents kept occuring, many "copy cat" reactions. I've walked into several fights at school without fear of getting attacked myself. Like you said, it seemed that most in school fighters were just waiting for a teacher/ principal to break it up...and quickly marched to the office afterwards.

But...after Columbine...all of this changed. People have to accept it...life isn't as innocent as it was before. Some teachers started taking target practice...and carried occasionally...and many still do after qualifying now by taking CCW courses and making it all legal. One little elementary school lady principal I talked to was an avid marksman. Much of the public in general still has no idea how many educators "carry." We've all changed because of the number of lethal incidents in recent years.

[Gray Wolf]

Quote:       Originally Posted by tlarkin

this is satire and mostly hyperbolic. I work in a school district and have for the past 4 years. It is nothing like mentioned, and anything similar is extremely exaggerated.

The year I graduated HS, 1971, some of us carried pocket knives with 4" blades to school. If there was a serious disagreement, the guys did fist city.
It never occurred to anyone to use knives on each other.

Now, we have all seen the news article where a young girl was either suspended or expelled from school because she had fingernail clippers!

While the post is satire, it is NOT extremely exaggerated.

[Brother Bob]

When I was growing up, the crime rate was nonexistent in my home town. We never locked the doors and my dad left the car keys in the ignition. A kid stealing a candy bar at Safeway was front page news. Homicides never or rarely happened in my home town and if one did, it was the talk of the town for quite some time. Kids weren't picked up and molested. You could eat homemade treats at Halloween and not have to worry about razor blades or needles. Yes, things have changed and I don't need statistic laden folks telling me otherwise.