IF I were the principal, I'd assign the little muslim girl to provide sensitivity training to the evil bushie-child war-monger brown-shirted JROTC students like Heather.
"You have someone in the States who is able to enjoy our educational and health care systems, yet it's okay for them to be disrespectful, and it's not okay for my daughter to speak her mind," said Mark Lawrence, Heather's father. "That's her First Amendment right. That's her freedom of speech."
She lost her case right there. If you are going to prove a point, at least come up with a better excuse than that.
The first amendment ends when it interferes on my first amendment. she was not in a public place, but a school classroom.
When I visited a foreign country as a guest I was careful to do nothing to disrespect their flag and I believe that when a foreign person is in our country it is reasonable to expect them to do nothing to disrespect our flag.
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When I visited a foreign country as a guest I was careful to do nothing to disrespect their flag and I believe that when a foreign person is in our country it is reasonable to expect them to do nothing to disrespect our flag.
+1
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When I visited a foreign country as a guest I was careful to do nothing to disrespect their flag and I believe that when a foreign person is in our country it is reasonable to expect them to do nothing to disrespect our flag.
I agree with you completely.
The young lady in question told the girl to take the garb off of her head. She didn't ask her side of things, but just assumed she was disrespecting the country on purpose. Let's assume she meant nothing by not standing...and then suggest that it is disrespectful. Same affect, none of the backlash.
The young lady in question told the girl to take the garb off of her head. She didn't ask her side of things, but just assumed she was disrespecting the country on purpose. Let's assume she meant nothing by not standing...and then suggest that it is disrespectful. Same affect, none of the backlash.
So the muslim girl can be disrespectfull, but the american girl can't? sounds like double standard to me.
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Let's create re-education camps and start putting anyone in them that doesn't adhere to our American customs, regardless of citizenship. That'll show who the true Americans are!
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I have taught in public schools for 42+ years. I have studied Education Law for the State of Ohio. The issue of the Pledge is just that, an issue.
You cannot be forced to stand for the Pledge, you cannot be forced to say the Pledge. SCOTUS has so spoken. Further, a teacher cannot put a student who refuses to do either under any kind of pressure to do so. Even further, you can do nothing to draw attention to the fact that Johnny is apparently an un-American little ____ since he won't rise, won't face the flag, won't say the pledge, and (if you let kids wear things on their head in your classroom) won't uncover during the Pledge. It is taken as an extension of the First Amendment. Freedom of speech and expression extends to the freedom to remain silent and refrain from expressing anything.
Now, if Johnny disrupts the class during the saying of the Pledge, whether by voice, posture, gesture, or other means, then Johnny may be disciplined, but no more so than he would be for similar behaviors during any lesson. If Johnny and Billy elect to not participate in the Pledge, they may do so. They may not, however, conduct a conversation among themselves during that time.
Your opinions are nice, guys, but the Muslim girl was within her rights if she is an American citizen, and was within her rights if she is not. The custom of uncovering is pretty much a male thing. I believe I have seen First Ladies standing and singing the national Anthem with their hats on. The Pledge is in the same category.
There are those who consider the Pledge a prayer since it was modified in the 50's to include the phrase "under God". Including that in the pledge forces the reciting person to admit that there a God and that they believe in same. While we have "In God we Trust" on our money, we are not permitted, under that same Constitution that you all love so much, to require anyone to believe in God, to worship God, or to mention the pronoun of God. You can argue 'til your face is blue that 'God' is a pronoun and not a name, but when it is capitalized, it becomes the God of the Bible, not Allah, or any other name. You can say there is only one God and the various religions just use different names for Him, but that still leaves the atheists who have the right to not believe and to not express a belief they don't have.
There are some Christian religions which prohibit saying the Pledge among their membership, feeling that we only owe allegiance to God, and most definitely not to some striped up piece of cloth. They have the right to that belief, and therefore the right to refuse to participate in the Pledge.
All those arguments aside, what good is a Pledge of Allegiance if you are forced to say it? Does a forced Pledge have any true meaning? A Pledge is a statement of personal conviction. If you don't share that conviction, please don't join me when I recite the Pledge of Allegiance to my flag and my country. I don't much like hyprcrites.
Living in a free country is about more than just those things you personally think are right and proper. It also includes the things others think are right, whether or not you agree with them.
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I never said that. But, if you are going to punish one for being disrespectfull, punish the other too!
The Muslim girl didn't get in anyone's face. And no one has explained why she didn't rise for the Pledge. Maybe she's new and doesn't know the ropes; maybe since it has God in it she considers it a Christian prayer; maybe she isn't a citizen and thought it would be considered improper for her to participate.
Or maybe she was just being rude. Regardless, confronting her in the hallway about her hijab had nothing to do with the Pledge. Covering their hair is an integral part of their religion for many Muslim women, and it was no more proper to get in her face about it than it would have been to tell a Catholic to stop wearing that stupid crucifix around her neck.
Hmmm....I need to start typing faster. Looks like DaTeacha covered the subject thoroughly while I was writing this.
Maybe she's new and doesn't know the ropes; maybe since it has God in it she considers it a Christian prayer; maybe she isn't a citizen and thought it would be considered improper for her to participate.
That is more than likely the reason. Rest assured that neither her American hosts, nor the school officials went over cultural protocol. People in general, including Americans in a foreign country traditionally honor the ceremonial protocol of the host country. American and other Western civilian and military personnel did it in Iraq, and you can bet Iraqi troops and diplomatic personnel did it when there was an American ceremony, even though it was in their country. When I was in Peoples Republic of China, Chinese civilians would wave and soldiers and police would stand fast when the American Consol’s diplomatic car would pass with the U.S. and State Department flags flying on the front fenders. It is just good manners and helps promote respect and understanding between people of different culture. But, like I said in my previous post, I don't blame the young Persian woman for not knowing. She was an unfortunate victim set up by her incompetent and uncaring American hosts and certainly, an incompetent and culturally uneducated school administration. I already notified the school administrators in question and I will follow up. Let this be a lesson to the school, not to either of these young women.
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Its an actual law that if you are a citizen of the US you HAVE to put your hand over your heart you can get arrested. Only exceptions being uniformed military.
That is utter nonsense. How in the world does that conceivably represent liberty and freedom? Where in the world did you ever get the idea there's a law about that?
A law like that would be the sort of thing one might see in a fascist, nationalist country. Making such a thing compulsory is a repulsive thought and completely counter to the values the nation was founded on.
Frankly, it looks to me like the girl was far more of a nationalist than a patriot in this case, parroting talking points without actually comprehending what they're supposed to mean.
Asking the girl, politely, if she would please show some respect to the country she has either immigrated to or is hosting her by at least standing is entirely appropriate and shows one of those things Roosevelt was talking about, the effort on our part to welcome the newcomer and inform them about our customs and traditions.
Y'catch more flies with honey, after all.
The rest? Way over the line. There's that pesky freedom again. We have a First Amendment that allows for freedom of religion, and somebody apparently forgot about that in her zeal to act like she thinks a patriot should.
Would it really have been that hard to go over to the girl and say, "You know, I noticed you weren't standing during the Pledge. Mind if I ask why that was?" and then explained it to her. I just get the impression someone was spoiling for a confrontation. I do and have approached people about stuff like this. Most people react pretty well to a little tact and if they didn't understand before, explaining it goes a long way.
No two ways about it, her plans to enlist are great, but she really needs to learn what the Bill of Rights actually means if she's going to take that oath to uphold and protect the Constitution.
FTA: "Lawrence said the girl did not respond to her and simply walked away. Duval said the girl did not complain to school officials."
Looks like someone was the bigger woman in this case. Did't even raise a fuss about it.
As much as I do take flag etiquette quite seriously in my life, we have to accept that some people will choose not to show that respect, and that's their right. That's the real test of a patriot. Can you support something you do not agree with because someone has the inalienable right to show that disrespect?
Voltaire gets a quote about that attributed to him a lot: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Look at the article comments. Lot of people agree Heather was very much in the wrong. This has nothing to do with a majority or minority. It has to do with our rights.
We can not like it all we want, but we can't compel behavior. That is contrary to our nation's ideals. I still think a little decorum would have gone a long way.
- Coeloptera
Last edited by Coeloptera; 08-31-2009 at 05:06 PM.
Ah Hell, just do away with anything that a foreigner may find offensive! Get rid of the **** flag, do away with Christianity, no Pledge anymore, legalize drugs. While we're at it, lets have socialized medicine for everyone except people that smoke, drink, or are not vegans........ Screw the Constitution and the Bill of Rights! It's too **** offensive to various groups of people. And above all, get rid of Capitalism. It isn't fair that I have more than other people so tax me more and give half my chit to the frigging homeless and deadbeats! No more laws! If you want to rob, rape, and pillage, knock yourself out. Come get my guns while you're at it! The United States has always been the shining beacon of the world. Let's show the world how low we can go........
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Not surprisingly, it was the school officials who have done most of the talking to date. They certainly know that they have some responsibility in this incident. The school should have given a cultural briefing to their students and to the visiting (I assume that she is visiting) young Persian student. For crying out loud, even armed forces personnel, State Department, and Defense Department personnel, corporate employees, and exchange students get a 4-5 hour brief on cultural awareness from our people, and when possible, the host country. So, what happened here Mr. and Mrs. School Board? How about admitting some culpability in this one, instead of gasping for breath and expressing shock and indignation.
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Both of my sons' Cub Scout and Boy Scout Pack and Troop had an internation flavor to them. English, Scottish, Canadian, Burmese and Korean nationals were all part of the units at one time or another. I can't think of a single time when the Pledge of Allegiance was said that these boys and their parents didn't stand up and remain quiet, and still during the Pledge.
The girls' parents should have taught her to stand and be quiet and still during the Pledge. She would have avoided any issues and it would probably help her fit in with her peers.
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Heather Lawrence should be congratulated for her patriotic stand. Public schools, an agency of the USA government, need to support people who stand up for American rights...not punish them.
Heather should be recognized publically and held up to other youth as one who, even at her early age, has made a stand for America. Schools need to stop coddling people in their facilities so they know this is America, not of some foreign site.
Heather Lawrence should be congratulated for her patriotic stand. Public schools, an agency of the USA government, need to support people who stand up for American rights...not punish them.
Heather should be recognized publically and held up to other youth as one who, even at her early age, has made a stand for America. Schools need to stop coddling people in their facilities so they know this is America, not of some foreign site.
Thank you! This PC nonsense is going to contribute to this country's downfall!
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