[DUGABOY1]

Quote:       Originally Posted by big shrek

well, there's always the .577 Tyranosaurus Rex... YouTube - T-Rex Rifle cal. 577 Pansies need not apply.

This place belongs to a friend of mine, Saeed the owner of Accurate Reloading website. Saeed shoots a wildcat cartridge of his own design, it is a 404/375 Bolt rifle. The 404 case necked down to .375 bullet. The 577T-REX was made to play jokes on his friends, and as you will se it works in spades. It didn't get me because I know better!

[DUGABOY1]

Quote:       Originally Posted by cjleete

I've tried to induce failure to feed on my Sako, even upside-down,, and it still feeds every time you cycle the bolt fully, no matter how fast you work the bolt. So the generalisation that push feed bolts are unreliable versus mauser-style bolts is debunked. Even my old Mohawk 600 works perfect, every time.

cjleete, I don't intend to have a donnybrook with you or anyone else on the PH/CRF controvercy. You may use what ever you want, it's your money, and your butt that is on the line not mine.

Having said that, however SAKOS are fine rifles, there is no denying that fact. I have owned several of them and I never saw a Sako rifle that wasn't a shooter. However if you want to hunt dangerous game with your Sako, that too is your choice, but it wouldn't be mine.

Let me explain the problem with any Push Feed rifle for dangerous game. It really has nothing to do with whether the rifle will feed up side down or not, but has everything to do with the way the shooter works the rifle under extreme distress when being charged by something that wants to kill him. The most common thing is with running while working the bolt, and the unattached cartridge bounceing out of the rifle before the bolt is closed, or working the bolt very slowly to avoid noise while holding the rifle barrel up while standin in the tree stand. In both these casea the bolt get closed on an empty chamber. thse are usualy when hutning things like deer or elk. No big problem.

The dangerous one, however is a thing called "SHORT STROAKING" that happenes all too often when a person gets int a life threatening sittuation. The mind makes a person do some verey strange things when he is opperating under extreme stress. The phenomenon happens, when the shooter shoots an animal, or what ever he shoots that is capable of killing him outright if it isn't stopped in it's tracks.

The shooters fires the first shot at close range, but the shot has little effect other than to piss the animal off, so he charges the shooter AT CLOSE RANGE, the shooter gets in too big a hurry, and his mind is working faster than his hands. He works the bolt pushing a round off the top of the magazine but because of stress, he doesn't turn the bold down to snap the extractor over the rim, after slamming the bolt closed and his mind is already thinking about the next shot before he shoots the one he has in the loading tray. Because of the stress he retracts the bolt leaving the uncontroled round in the loading tray, and when he goes home again, he strips another round off the magazine! NOW, he has two rounds vieying for one chamber, and a jam is the condition he has now. NO TIME TO CLEAR IT, even if he even realizes he has a problem. If, however, he had been useing a control round feeding rifle, when the involentary retraction of the bolt happened, the first round would have been ejected from the rifle, and the next one would have had an empty chamber to occupy.

There is an excellent example of this happening in Alaska, by a Brown bear guide who had used his 375 SAKO for years with out a problem. This man has faced numerous wounded brown bear over 25 or so years of guiding for the big browns in Alaska. This bear got a little too close and he got shook, and short stroaked his SAKO. The result was two rounds trying to get into the chamber, and both bullets got into the mouth of the chamber, and when he slammed the bolt closed he shouved both rounds so hard it took tools later to remove the rounds from the rifle. He didn't remove them however, because he wa in the hospital for several weeks being put back together. He now has a CRF Mod 70, 375H&H, and lots of scars, and lucky to have only scars. If this can happen to a guy who is a dangerous game guide, and one that had used his SAKO for many years, then it can certainly happen to a Texas deer hunter.

The difference is, however, if this happens with buck fever, on a goaty old whitetail, nothing is lost but a shot at a deer, with anything that bites scratches, or stomps, it is a far different matter. SO if you don't hunt anything that bites back, then the SAKO is one fine rifle,but why bother when it cost no more to have a platform that protects the nut on the trigger from himself to begine with. The CRF action has complete control of the cartridge from the time is comes out of the magazine till it is either fired, and the empty ejected, or the loaded round ejected when the bolt is retracted.

The fact that you have not had a problem means nothing, I'm 73 yrs old and have been driveing everything from cars to airplanes and have never had a wreck, but I may be killed on my way to the corner of my street today. The fact is the probability is far more likely with a PF, than it is with a CRF rifle, but as I said in the begining that is your choice. However, domn't you think that because I know these things, I would be remiss in my responcibility to my fellow hunter if I didn't share it!

My advice is worth exactly what the reader pays for it. He is free to take advantage of it or not, his choice!
...................................Good hunting

[FortyXDM]

I totally agree with the prior two posts. My Sako (mod 75 .308) will also feed in any position. However, I am aware that give the right set of circumstances, it could be made to jam. Naturally, and fortunately, it is not a DG rifle. Also, Sako has obviously taken note. All of their new offerings are now of CRF type feed. They started introducing CRF with their AFRICAN line.

Good post Dugaboy.

Tom

[moosemike]

Dugaboy, I thought I knew all about this PF/CRF debate but you opened my eyes to a few new facets about it all. Thanks.

[jrswanson1]

How about the new Barrett in 20mm?

Jim

[Purdy]

RE: Short stroking
I believe you can short stroke a mauser type action too. It was a fairly common problem in combat with the '03 series.

addendum: I haven't checked the latest Winchester '70's so I could be in error (I'm sure someone will point that out) but when they first started making the post '64 so called controlled feed, they really weren't. If you compared the rails on a pre '64 and the "new" ones they were completely different. The top edge of the magazine box was bent in to "control" the feeding on the "new" models and it was not always effective.

[shop tom]

I like to find a Winchester Model 71 chambered in .450 Alaskan. With .458 Magnum power in a lever gun, I'd feel right at home. I'd throttle it down for deer and such, but, fully loaded with proper bullets, it would be the berries for anything up to M'bogo at ranges up to 150-200 yards.

I saw a hunt on TV where a guy used a 1895 Winchester in .405 on a Cape Buffalo (M'bogo) at about 15 yards. Dropped the Big Bad Buff like a sack of rocks.

tom

[charles73]

I for one appreciate the information Dugaboy1! I have a CRF Model 70 which I spoke about in my first post in this thread, it will shoot inside 200yds neck to neck with my Rem 700. I still think this mystical theory if you have CRF "it won't shoot" is a bunch of mess. But anyway that was a very thoughtful explanation as to why a CRF rifle should be used.
But then we could talk about double rifles....but I better shut up...this poor preacher can't afford one. : )

[DUGABOY1]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Purdy

RE: Short stroking I believe you can short stroke a mauser type action too. It was a fairly common problem in combat with the '03 series. addendum: I haven't checked the latest Winchester '70's so I could be in error (I'm sure someone will point that out) but when they first started making the post '64 so called controlled feed, they really weren't. If you compared the rails on a pre '64 and the "new" ones they were completely different. The top edge of the magazine box was bent in to "control" the feeding on the "new" models and it was not always effective.

Purdy, did you bother to read my post above? If you did you would know that in a control feed action is short stroaked, the first round is ejected from the rifle before the next round is picked up off the magazine. The rails is not what makes a CRF action controlled feed, it is the rim of the cartridge sliding up under the extractor before it comes free of the magazine, so that when the cartridge comes free of the magazine the bolt has control of that round till it is either chambered, fired, and empty ejected, or not chambered (AS IN SHORT STROKING) and ejected when the bolt it pulled back, before it can strip another round off the magazine. The bolt has to go back past the point where the round that is on the bolt, is ejected before it can catch another round to strip off the magazine. It cannot strip the second round off the magazine without ejecting the first one.

The push feed as it implies simply pushes the top cartridge forward till it pops free of the magazine, and doesn't take control of the round till the bolt is closed all the way, and THE BOLT TURNED DOWN, which only then snaps the extractor over the rim. If that handle is not push home, and the bolt turned down the rifle cannot eject that round, and when the bolt goes forward AGAIN it strips another round off the magazine leaving two rounds on the rails.

The pre 64 was almost a true Mauser and worked the same way. In 1964 they went the cheap way and like Remington, and many others went to push feed, because they are cheaper to make, no other reason, but to improve the maker's bottom line, not because it was better.

The new Mod 70s that went back to CRF are different from the pre 64, but are true CRF actions. However though both the pre 64, and the reintroduced CRF Mod 70, and far better for dangerous game than any push feed, they are still inferior to the 98 Mauser pattern.

I think you may be confusing the newer Mod 70 with the so-called CRF feature on the 375 H&H Savage, and the early SAKO safaris. Both were a cheap attempt to be able to use the words "CONTROL FEED" in their ads, but both are a poor attempt at true CRF actions. The SAKO have improved that attempt in the newer rifle of late.

I hope that explains it better! As I said earlier the push feed rifle that is well made like the SAKO, Sauer, or Steyr Mannlicher are fine for everything EXCEPT dangerous game, but many of the push feed rifles are simply not well made, and one in particular is down right dangerous, with conditions like firing when the safety is pushed to the fire position, causing at least one death, among other things tat have nothing to do with CRF/PF types, but simply poor quality.

I find that the most vocal folks who poo poo the value of the CRF actions, are people who have never even bothered to really look at the way both work, and do not understand the term "SHORT STROKING".

If anyone thinks stress cannot make you do things you think you would never be guilty of, let me give you another example of mistakes caused by stress.

I had a cousin who lived in Brownwood, Tx, and had never even seen a big mule deer, and he came out the New Mexico to hunt deer with me one year. He had a little Winchester mod 94, 30-30 that he had hunted with for years, so was well versed on handling it. First off he didn't know how to hunt Mule deer in the mountains, so I took him in tow to show him the ropes.

We started working the cap-rock looking down into the draws for bedded deer. At one of these draws just below the cap-rock was a big ten point Muley bedded, but got up and started to run before my cousin could make him out in his bed. The deer headed around the slope to get around a point, and out of sight about 150 yds away. My cousin slammed that little 94 to his shoulder and went to working that lever, as fast as he could, till the deer went around the point. My cousin turned and asked me "DID I HIT HIM?" , to which I replied, "NO"!. He said I know I must have hit him at least once out of six or seven shots. What he had done was worked that lever pretty fast, but forgot to pull the trigger even once. When I told him he hadn't fired the rifle, he couldn't believe it, until I pointed out all six rounds lying on the ground un-fired.

The deer was so close, and so much bigger than any deer he had ever seen, that he got so excited that he concentrated on the deer so hard that he didn't even realize he was not firing his rifle. STRESS!

Now this example has nothing to do with CRF/PF, but shows that when a hunter is under extreme stress he needs a rifle that takes away everything that could be prevented by mechanical things to make some mistakes like jamming as impossible as it can be made. A CRF action is one such insurance policy against human error that a PF action can't.

Whether anyone believes this or not, facts are facts, and it makes no difference if you choose a PF action as long as you know the draw-backs, and are willing to live with the result of that choice. As long as this country offers free choice, which may not be for long under the Obamanation, we are free to buy, and use what ever we want, and the next man has the same free choice. For dangerous game I only use #1 S/S double rifles, and #2 CRF bolt rifles! Others may do as it suits them.
............................................

[Purdy]

I Am under the impression that the first post '64, M70's that were touted as controlled feed atually just pushed the round into the chamber like the push feeds and then the extractor just snapped over the rim as the bolt camed closed. At least thats the way the one I had worked and it was one of the first few thousand released. I sold it right away.

I haven't even looked at a M70 since that experience which must be approaching 20 years ago now. Hopefully Winchester saw the error of their ways and improved the system.

The rails on a true controlled feed do affect how the cartridge is fed and sometimes had to be judiciously polished to insure proper feeding of blunt nosed bullets.

[DUGABOY1]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Purdy

I Am under the impression that the first post '64, M70's that were touted as controlled feed atually just pushed the round into the chamber like the push feeds and then the extractor just snapped over the rim as the bolt camed closed. At least thats the way the one I had worked and it was one of the first few thousand released. I sold it right away. I haven't even looked at a M70 since that experience which must be approaching 20 years ago now. Hopefully Winchester saw the error of their ways and improved the system.

You are absolutely correct the post 64 rifles were push feed, but later in the late 80s they went back to CRF with the Mod 70 classic, and the mod 70, are CRF today. First only the large chamberings were CRF, but as more came off the line smaller and smaller chamberings were in CRF actions in all chamberings that could concievably be used for dangerous game. All the CRF Mod 70s are real CRF not some make do add on.

Quote:      

The rails on a true controlled feed do affect how the cartridge is fed and sometimes had to be judiciously polished to insure proper feeding of blunt nosed bullets.

The rails in a CRF action are only made to hold the cartridge into the magazine, in a CRF action, and are polished to release the cartridge at the proper time after the rim is under the extractor. Once the bolt has the cartridge the cartridge never touches the rails again but is held by the bolt and is chambered straight into the chamber and never touches anythig but the bolt till the case mates with the walls of the chamber.

The Push feed on the other hand fully depends on the rails, and is only pushed along while the cartridge rides free on top of the rails. If I can find them I will post pictures that may show the difference between the two types better.

[moosemike]

I'm a little more biased than most on this issue as I only have the time of day for CRF's. Push feeds need not apply.

[338RUM]

I have decided to give up my quest for a 600 Nitro Express when I went into the gun shop and started talking to the owner, he is ordering me a CZ 550 Magnum chambered in 505 Gibbs with a set trigger laminate stock and a 25 inch barrel, for below his cost of 1,365 bucks he said that he would give me the deal if I promised to let him shoot it and when he goes to Africa that I let him use it. I thought it was a good deal considering he gave me almost 50% off. So not I have to order dies and brass, I did not know but 505 Gibbs brass is 50 bucks for 10 pieces! This is gonna be a blast! (no pun intended)

[charles73]

Wow 50 bucks for 10 pieces of brass......man o man, but you know I guess a 505 Gibbs is not a plinking gun huh?

[Midas]

Quote:       Originally Posted by 338RUM

I have decided to give up my quest for a 600 Nitro Express when I went into the gun shop and started talking to the owner, he is ordering me a CZ 550 Magnum chambered in 505 Gibbs with a set trigger laminate stock and a 25 inch barrel, for below his cost of 1,365 bucks he said that he would give me the deal if I promised to let him shoot it and when he goes to Africa that I let him use it. I thought it was a good deal considering he gave me almost 50% off. So not I have to order dies and brass, I did not know but 505 Gibbs brass is 50 bucks for 10 pieces! This is gonna be a blast! (no pun intended)

Man, I didn't know CZ offered the .505 Gibbs with a laminate stock, and a 25" barrel, I coulda swore they only offered the Gibbs with walnut and a 24" tube.

But, that was earlier this year, and they may have changed it since then, I only spoke to a CZ rep on the phone about the issue.

[338RUM]

Midas that is my mistake, I was looking at the website before I spoke to Jeff and I told him what I wanted, I did not realize that it only came in American walnut and matte or gloss blue I was looking at the magnum actions. But you are correct, I did not know the Gibbs was a custom Mauser action... but I see no need to have an attitude, I am sorry that I do not have my own CZ rep, my next post I will call an expert before posting. Can I have your number?

[sc928porsche]

Through the years, I have noticed that most PH's prefer their customers to use a minimum of the 375 H&H, but would much rather that they use the 416 Rigby for DG.

[Midas]

Quote:       Originally Posted by 338RUM

Midas that is my mistake, I was looking at the website before I spoke to Jeff and I told him what I wanted, I did not realize that it only came in American walnut and matte or gloss blue I was looking at the magnum actions. But you are correct, I did not know the Gibbs was a custom Mauser action... but I see no need to have an attitude, I am sorry that I do not have my own CZ rep, my next post I will call an expert before posting. Can I have your number?

I am in no way an expert, just a bit suspicious when one skews the facts to the extent that you have.

Would certainly hope you would know more about a rifle you are going to be ordering.

At any rate, I look forward to seeing pics of the new rifle, and hope to see a range report ASAP.

[ArkansasHunter]

Though I don't have to worry about dangerous game, I bought a Ruger Hawkeye because it has CRF. In case I have other encounters with Big Foot

[deadzero]

Quote:       Originally Posted by big shrek

well, there's always the .577 Tyranosaurus Rex... YouTube - T-Rex Rifle cal. 577 Pansies need not apply.

I want one.

just in case I happen upon Mutant Dinosaur Zombies From Outer Space.....