[mitchr]

I think the 12" is used because to get a disabling first shot, they say you need to hit the spine. Also, allows for worse case scenario of a side shot where it has to go through the arm before it hits vital organs, etc.

[xixxt]

[IMG]file:///Users/xixxt/Desktop/01.jpg[/IMG]See attached (Ihope)

[billy]

now fellas
dont get me wrong.
i think they are cool looking and i will prolly end up with one.
but as far as a gun for serious work?
i've got a half dozen wheelguns in my safe right now that would be a better choice for damn near anything.

[Cyrano]

Don't count the Judge out so fast, billy. Properly loaded, it could be a potent defense gun. Federal has just developed a new load, the .410 Handgun, especially for the Judge, and it seems potent.

Patrick Sweeney reviewed it in the Dec 09/Jan 10 issue of Handguns. It's a 3 inch long shell carrying four plated 000 buckshot pellets stacked on top of each other. That's relevant.

Each 000 buck pellet is 62 grains and .360 diameter. That's heavier than a .25 ACP and nearly as heavy as a .32 ACP bullet. Furthermore, Federal designed this new round specifically for personal defense. Sweeney tested it at 5 foot intervals out to 30 feet. At 10 feet, all four pellets are pretty much together. At 15 feet they start to spread out to about 4 inches, and they are at 4 inches 30 feet downrange.

He chronographed the round and the pellets head downrange at 832 feet per second. You're in .45 ACP and .44 Special muzzle velocity range there. Sweeney tested them in ballistic gelatin, not against water jugs as The Box O' Truth did; they penetrate an average of 10 to 12 inches. The FBI considers that kind of penetration marginal for pistol bullets, but there is something else to consider.

Two of those pellets weigh the same as a Speer .38 Special LE Gold Dot bullet - but taken together, they have twice the diameter of a .38 Special bullet. That means in effect that at the short ranges the .410 Handgun round is intended for, each shotshell is like firing a double-tap of Speer LE Gold Dot. And you get four wound channels, not just one. I suspect that if you fire two rounds of .410 Handgun at a bad guy at personal defense ranges, he won't be going to the hospital; he'll be going to the morgue.

Further, because of the way the pellets are stacked in the shotshell, they deform when fired. The first pellet is expanded to .370, the second to .380, the third to .390 and the bottom one to .400. I guess that's just an added bonus in terms of the wound each will make.

Now, you can only use this new Federal .410 Handgun round in the later model Judges, the ones with the 3 inch chambers. In my opinion, it would be worth trading in a 2 1/2 inch chambered Judge on a 3 inch chambered Judge just to take advantage of the new Federal shotshell. With this new shell added into the already potent .45 Colt mixture the Judge can accept, you now have a pistol you can really tailor to the mission. Leave the birdshot for hiking on the trail where you might meet a poisonous snake, and replace it with this .410 Handgun round in the Judge for home defense purposes.

[TXplt]

^ Sorry to correct you, but the federal 4 pellet 000 buckshot load IS DESIGNED for the 2 1/2" chamber judges and can be used in ALL judges (including the public defender). The Winchester 5 pellet load is the one which can only be used in the 3" chamber version. I've tested the Federal 4-pellet 000 buckshot load and it's performed well in ALL my judges (but I do have a 3" magnum chamber variant where I use primarily the 3" Winchester 5-pellet load--but this gun patterns well with the shorter federal load as well). The Federal 000 buckshot performs especially well in the 2 1/2" chamber 2" barrel Public Defender and is the .410 load I'd mostly use.

Otherwise, this is consistent with the results I've obtained. For defensive situations where I didn't specifically need the fine shot to spread out I'd load the gun alternating .45 LC and the 000 Federal load (which seems to be the best of the bunch and pattern the best). For the Colt rounds I'd use either the Speer 255 Grain Gold Dot (HUGE hollow point) or Buffalo Bore Heavy Standard Pressure 255 Grain Keith/200 Grain Gold Dot. OR the Blazer 200 Gr. Gold dot for a little lower cost. The BB stuff is pretty hot, but still pretty managable in the stainless version of the Public Defender. Again, for a sometimes carry sometimes car gun the Public Defender I think is the gun Taurus should've come out with in the first place--its size is ideal for this purpose (but there is some velocity loss over the longer 3" barrel so this might be a drawback if you can stand the size of the larger gun).

The gun really is pretty compact compared with the other judges and like I said about the size and weight of a 3" SP-101. Even for purists you could load it with 5 .45 Colt rounds which packs alot of punch in a compact revolver.

[big shrek]

Hrmph...methinks you guys forgot the old .45ACP multiball loads

.44 Magnum used to have a nasty multiball load as well

[CoachSuper]

I went into my local large gun shop, looking for a .38 or .357 snub for home defense/ conceal carry.

The salesman pushed the judge hard. He explained that the penetration of a .38 or .357 was irresponsible (walls, etc.). He said that the judge would do the job and not over-penetrate and hit any innocents. He told me that Taurus recommended birdshot in the 410.

I researched the gun at home. While the .45 colt is a very good defense round. The 410 was just weak or scattered so much due to the short barrel that it was useless at anything more than 5 yards.

Summary: I feel that the whole reason to get a judge is to use the 410's. Every publication I read said that the 410's were a bad idea for personal defense. The .45 colt is great, but the gun is made for 410's. I'd rather buy a gun that was made to shoot .45's.

[Whootsinator]

This seems appropriate.

The Box O' Truth #41 - The Taurus Judge Vs. The Box O' Truth - Page 1

[samuel]

If it goes bang and you can have fun with it and afford it,go for it.Don't worry about self defence,if it comes to that,anything you have is what you use. ,,,sam.

[Cyrano]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TXplt

^ Sorry to correct you, but the federal 4 pellet 000 buckshot load IS DESIGNED for the 2 1/2" chamber Judges and can be used in ALL Judges (including the Public Defender). The Winchester 5 pellet load is the one which can only be used in the 3" chamber version.

My mistake, Txplt. I just reread the article and you are correct. However, according to Patrick Sweeney this is a new load made with the Taurus Judge pistols specifically in mind. Is Federal simply repackaging an existing load, or is this a new load with something innovative?

[Mr. 22]

I don't have any doubts. Check out the two videos attached. I know... I've never been attacked by a watermelon either, and I haven't been shot with the Judge either. But I can tell you right now... I don't want to be!

Taurus International Manufacturing Inc - The Judge Magnum

YouTube - The Judge Taurus Handgun .45 & 410

YouTube - The Judge Taurus Handgun .45 & 410

I also hear that the Federal round was specifically designed for the Judge so that all of the powder would burn, etc. Also, don't forget smooth-bore compared to a rifled barrel. The gun test mentioned, only had the 2 1/2" available and shotgun ammo only. Way outta date.

[big shrek]

It's pretty evident that it'd screw up a bad guy pretty nicely.

Even with the birdshot...you'd still be bleeding from a LOT of tiny little holes...and there's still a chance to penetrate a lung.

[nick112207]

I don't listen to the 12" of penetration in gel anyway. how many people have been killed with knives less than half that length?

[DaTeacha]

Quote:       Originally Posted by big shrek

It's pretty evident that it'd screw up a bad guy pretty nicely. Even with the birdshot...you'd still be bleeding from a LOT of tiny little holes...and there's still a chance to penetrate a lung.

There was a case about 2 years ago here. Some Amish kids were throwing veggies at cars and then jumping into a corn field to hide. A guy got mad, went home, got his shotgun, came back and stopped. He yelled at the kids, they taunted him and ran into the corn. He got out the shotgun and fired a couple of rounds of 6's into the corn "just to scare them". One kid, 18 years old, caught a pellet in the heart. He died. The idiot went to jail where he died of a heart attack. One pellet in the heart was enough to kill the kid.

[sunwheel29]

I like the 2 and 1/2 inch version better. The 3 inch just looks ungainly.
What a lot of chairborn rangers just don't understand is that its not magazine ads selling these guns, or just novelty. The guns are selling themselves because they are a good idea and they work well.

Other companies tried this same concept and failed with it. If the gun itself was not up to snuff, I am pretty sure it would have gone the way of the Thunder Five.

As far as .410s for home defense, a lot of you guys may not remember, but back in the 80s, Mossberg made a pump action short barrel pistol grip shotgun in .410 and aimed it at the self defense market as a home defense gun. Experts like Mass Ayoob recommended it, noting it would be a good home defense shotgun for women.
As far as .45 Colt goes, I don't know if the internet experts comprehend who the man was but the late great Elmer Keith stated in print more than once that for the shooter who does not load his own ammo, the best factory load for self defense is the .45 Colt.

One of my friends is a retailer. He sells every judge that comes in from his distributor, usually within days, if that long. The buyers seem happy with them.
He has other revolvers that sit on the shelf for a year or longer unsold, but the Judge flies out the door. We live in a VERY rural area, and I am guessing that most Judge buyers are thinking of it as a woods gun. But more than one Judge owner has told me it was their first handgun purchase, and that they bought it for self defense as they did not feel comfortable with other handguns that they shot because they were not comfortable that they could hit things with a .38 or .357 or other standard guns. But after getting comfortable with the .410 judge guns many of them started shooting .45 colt.
Now, I can't find .45 Colt ammo because judge owners snap it up as soon as the retailers get a shipment.

LOL...

Anything that sells revolvers in the era of tactical tupperware can't be all that bad.
Yeah, there are .44 mag and .45 colt and even .38 shot shells, but they are not as easy to find as .410 shells.

[xixxt]

Good Morning Thread!

Thank you for your answers to some of my questions from an earlier post! I actually found some Federal Handgun Ammo at Walmart a couple of days ago and acquired 4 boxes for a rainy day. It's cheaper that regular 410 ammo - Oooo Coool! I hope Federal will start producing 3" shells soon!

Anyhoo.

What do you think (or know) about the energy of the 410 pellets hitting their target? If five pellets hit with 508 ft/lbs is that 508 ft/lbs PER pellet? Or is that the TOTAL of all 5 pellets?