I'm indecisive on a deer gun this year and hoping you can help me out. I'm looking at a
H & R 12 ga. shotgun and a H & R cr1871 rifle (45/70 caliber).
I'm interested in knock down power and ballistic grouping at 100, 200, and 300 yards. Thank you very much!
Well, first of all, welcome to G&G! You'll find all of the help you'll ever need here.
If all you're going to be hunting is deer, and that's all you will be using your new firearm for, I don't think either of these are what you're looking for. In fact, both of these seem pretty far off...
Both have ample 'knock down power' for a bear or moose, and can surely handle a deer. They'll shoot fine out to 100 yards, but I wouldn't use either one much farther out than that. The 'ballistic groupings' at 300 yards are... well, no one knows, because no one can find a big enough piece of paper to measure!
I suppose that's a bit of an exaggeration, but really, you're not looking to the right guns. The calibers you're asking about weren't built for the job you're asking them to do. If you want to be shooting at 300 yards, you're going to need something with a bit flatter trajectory. .243, .25-06, .270, 7mm, 7mm-08, .308, .30-06, and anything in between would be fine. I don't care for .243, but plenty of other people do.
If you're really wanting to stick with the H&R guns, they make the Handi-Rifle, available in many calibers.
Last edited by Whootsinator; 10-17-2009 at 02:47 PM.
stretching out a 45-70 beyond one hundred yards really starts getting you into a declining trajectory. Remington.com has an excellent ballistics program allowing you to compare various cartridges. If you are buying over the counter you will find 45-70 cartridges a bit on the high side of cost. Yes, some shooters do get good with the 45-70 but realize it comes with a recoil that many cannot tolerate. If possible, shoot one before you make a buy one decision.
Personally, I would pick a good 12 gauge and get a rifled barrel to go along with it for slug shooting. In that way you can go for birds and deer.
12 gauge ammo comes loaded in a wide variety of shot sized from birdshot to the larger "ought" buckshot loads. 12 gauges also can be had with screw in chokes for pattern control at various distances.
Best wishes and good luck on whatever final decision you make.
Yes, I do understand 12 gauge slugs are not long range hitters. But the combo of a 12 gauge smoothbore and a rifled barrel offers a lot of potential for any shooter.
Should you decide on a pump 12 gauge there are many Reminton 870's out there on the used gun racks at affordable costs. It is just about impossible for the average shooter to put any real wear and tear on an 870.
On the advise you have already gotten on your question you can take the answers to the bank, they are pure gold!
What you need is a deer rifle in the range that was suggested to you earlier. Unlike one poster, My favorite deer rifle is a Mannlicher Shoenauer MCA 61 rifle, chambered for 243 win. but the 243 in a Sako will do as well in that chambering. However any of the ones suggested will work for deer, and the 7mms up will work well on Elk as well if you get the chance to hunt them.
The posters here are right, the 45-70, and the 12 ga slug guns are of limited use, and are best used from a box blind over a feeder, or in deep woods. Unfortunately deer live in all kinds of terrain, and a flatter shooting rifle with less recoil, and far better range than either of the two you are thinking about. Though it is not my favorite chambering an old 30-06 is a hard choice to beat for accross the board chambering for North America. Light for the big bears of Alaska, and not actually needed for deer, it cover them both if a one gun has to do everything for you.
Personally if you are just starting out in center rifles, I'd go with a 243 Win in a good bolt rifle, and mount a good scope, and use nothing but 100 gr bullets in it. The reason I say that is, you will find the 243 easy to hit what you want with it, even at 300 yds, and the recoil is light, and I assure you it will not be your last rifle. You will move up to larger rifles, and the shotguns will come for bird hunting, and the 243 is a real learner.
What ever you decide make the best of it, and shoot it a lot before you go deer hunting, and not from the bench. Get out into the woods, and do a lot of stump shooting from hunting positions.
.............................Good luck, and again welcome!
One question is where are you located geographically? Terrain can impact your choice as well are you in a plains state, a mountain state.....?
As you've already seen niether of your two initial choices are viable at the ranges stated. Both are fine choice under the right conditions however .45-70 is a popular choice for a guide gun in places with heavy underbrush and dense cover like places in Alaska or Canada, its a heavy hitting round capable of punching thru all that foliage and retaining enough energy to soundly drop the bear or moose on the other side, but heavy means slow (relatively speaking) and slow doesn't equate to extended ranges. Pretty much the same goes for a 12ga slug. I would seriously consider loking at one of the calibers listed earlier. I myself have a .243Win as well as a .30-30, both would be adequate to 250 yds (.243) or 200 yds w/ new Leverevolution ammo by hornady (.30-30 obviously). The .243 may be better at farther distances but if it's further than that I aint gonna try for the shot I don't think I'm that good a shot and tend to err on the side of caution to ensure a clean and humane kill. Everbody has their own personal effective range, I would suggest finding that first and then looking into which caliber best suits you.
__________________
" This house is protected by the good Lord, and a gun......."
I'm having fun with my Marlins...but I realize that .45-70, unless matched with the proper tang peep, is pretty much a 100-yard weapon.
IF you take the time to get the proper Vernier-type sight...you can shoot to 300 with one...and a little farther, but it's still like lobbing mortars
Here's a Marlin 1895 Cowboy with Vernier sights & a Marlin Guide Gun with Ghost ring sights.
Lyman & Ballard both make decent Vernier sights, from about $175-$250. Try to find one specifically for .47-70 Gov't., then you can put your own hash marks on the front face of it.
But going that route, you may very well want a Laser Rangefinder...because you're going to have to know EXACTLY the range the critter is at, or you'll overshoot/undershoot.
But my personal preference is the Marlin XS-7 in .30-06 (and other calibers) for $299 at stores everywhere. You can't find a better deer gun until you hit $2500+...and most of those is fancy carving
