[RNL]

ArkansasHunter, the Winchester ammo you are referring to is called PDX1, it is the ammo the FBI now uses. It was featured on one of the Handguns program on one of the outdoor channels. It supposedly will not break up if shot through glass or other solid objects.

DaTeacha, just because you haven't experienced any violence in your area doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I used to be a news photographer in LA and have had my share of violent encounters and have two friends that were robbed at gun point. As the old saying goes, better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it.

[shooter1]

The FBI set up these standards because some agent was killed or wounded. Inadquate ammo has casued loss of life and injury. Any time I can learn from others I will. When I carry I ususlly carry 1911 45acp or Glock 22 40 cal. I feel bigger bullets are better than smaller but will use what ever I have on hand vs just my hands.

[HEMI]

Hit them hard,fast and often. Thinking your attacker is alone or only has one weapon
will get you dead. I teach compliance when dealing with a non lethal force confrontation,[unarmed assailant] and the best compliance is on butt unconsious bleeding and broken.
The longer you fight with someone the more danger you are in, end any fight swiftly as you can lethal or not. I have said this before the only guarenteed way of winning a fight is not to be in one.

[Jay]

In a defensive shooting, against another human, unless bullets of different calibers impact at the same point, against the same resistance, follow the same trajectory, and impact the same internal structures, every time, caliber comparison is inaccurate due to excessive variables. You can't compare a 9mm to a .45 if the 9mm hits bone and the .45 does not. Ballistic gel reveals some interesting comparisons...... the gel tells me that if you can't put shots on target, caliber is not relevant..... and if you do put shots on target, caliber doesn't matter all that much.

[samuel]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Metronome

I am getting a little cynical about how people test their defensive ammunition. My first thought is how people complain that certain bullets 'fail' after passing through 4 layers of denim, to which my thoughts were how exactly would I wear clothing that would put four layers of regular denim between my skin and the outside world. Maybe if I wore a pair of denim overalls (with the big pocket in front, and I will count that as 2 layers) as well as a denim jacket that is big enough that I can layer the front twice (we are up to 4 layers). Now if I took a frontal shot, and the bullet doesn't expand, I will still have a same caliber hole somewhere in my chest... that sounds pretty effective to me. Second, the ability to penetrate auto glass has no bearing for me, mainly because if the person I am going to defend myself from is on the opposite side of automotive glass, I am feeling pretty safe, and I can't imagine the legalities of needing to shoot someone on either side of a windshield. The only barriers I can find in my place of residence might be an interior door, or possibly my couch - which I am capable of throwing a screwdriver through either without much effort. Also the thought of a 250 lb crackhead is of course scary for anyone, but thankfully, much like the deer in my area, most of the crackheads are generally around the 130 mark, and 12" of penetration is more than sufficient. Of course we all want to prepare for the worst case scenario, but doing so can become excessive and I believe would qualify for the diminishing returns effect. I have only been involved in 2 violent enounters, and neither required violence to stop the encounter. I hope to keep my track record the same, but if need be, my top three rules are (in order of importance): 1) Run Away 2) Have a gun 3) Shot placement anytihng else is considered a luxury! feedback?

I hope I never get to the point that I,without testing anything can declare testing done by others is no good.As to placing shots in a combat situation,most people that go through a CS never remember what the he** they did.If you havn't trained long and hard,you might try all three of your choices at the same time. ,,,sam.

[mitchr]

Quote:       Originally Posted by HEMI

Hit them hard,fast and often. Thinking your attacker is alone or only has one weapon will get you dead. I teach compliance when dealing with a non lethal force confrontation,[unarmed assailant] and the best compliance is on butt unconsious bleeding and broken. The longer you fight with someone the more danger you are in, end any fight swiftly as you can lethal or not. I have said this before the only guarenteed way of winning a fight is not to be in one.

Agree. I saw a list of 4 possible reactions in a confrontation. Don't remember them all, but the one that stuck with me was "if possible, run".
Key words: "If possible". Obviously, do not risk getting shot in the back. Point was, ego may suffer some - having a firearm & running, but when you pull the trigger, several things can happen & only one of them is good.

[TACAV]

Quote:       Originally Posted by jay

in a defensive shooting, against another human, unless bullets of different calibers impact at the same point, against the same resistance, follow the same trajectory, and impact the same internal structures, every time, caliber comparison is inaccurate due to excessive variables. You can't compare a 9mm to a .45 if the 9mm hits bone and the .45 does not. Ballistic gel reveals some interesting comparisons...... The gel tells me that if you can't put shots on target, caliber is not relevant..... And if you do put shots on target, caliber doesn't matter all that much.

+1,000!!!

[Cyrano]

Quote:       Originally Posted by G. Green

... I suspect (hope) Metronome meant "tactical withdrawal" as opposed to turning tail and un-assing the area. Tactical withdrawal is not a bad option depending on the circumstances.

I think that's exactly what he means. "A good run is better than a bad stand." No sane person not in a war zone goes around looking for a chance to shoot somebody.

My one encounter with a drugged-up looneytune was 30 years ago in Massachusetts. I was sitting at a stoplight in a suburban town's business district in broad summer daylight waiting for the light to change when a PCP-head came across the street with the saliva dripping off his chin. For no reason, he yelled something incomprehensible and smashed his clenched-together fists into my hood, leaving a massive dent. I cut right to get around him as the light changed and pulled up in the next block to run into a store and call 911 (this was long before cellphones). There happened to be a police car nearby and they went after him.

It took four cops about three minutes to subdue the PCP-head and they had to beat the crap out of him with their batons to do it. According to the newspapers, once they had him in the back seat of the cruiser he tried to kick the safety screen out of the police car and smashed one of the door windows on the way to the police station. And after all that, I think all they could charge him with was public intoxication, creating a public nuisance, resisting arrest and damaging public property, since he didn't have any PCP on him. He was lucky the cops kept their heads and didn't shoot instead of subduing him.

If you can safely withdraw from a confrontation, it's better to do so. But if you can't, then you shoot to kill. The Jeff Cooper Axiom referred to in an earlier post is most definitely on point:

Two in the chest
And one in the head
Always leaves the subject dead.

Which brings us to the ammunition question. The new Hornady Critical Defense ammunition is intended to solve the problem of hollowpoints failing to expand properly because the hollow was filled with cloth it picked up on its way through the perp's clothing. That would be my ammunition of choice for a personal defense gun, but not only that bullet. I would load FMJ ammo as well, and if I could locate any (I don't think it exists for pistols), dual purpose ammunition meant to punch through vehicles, like the steel core rounds made for the Mosin Nagant rifle.

I can testify that at 90 yards 180 grain 7.62x54R steel core ammo will punch through a car door, traverse the front seat area, and punch out the opposite door as well without noticing the sheet metal and fabric of the doors. It will go through a car's roof column without hardly slowing down. And at my gun club, you will get your ass kicked by the Range Master if you shoot it at the suspended and set on springs steel plate targets made of half inch thick boiler plate, because steel core ammo will blow holes right through them. Big holes. If you are concerned about having to shoot through a windshield, that type of ammo will do it for you.

From my point of view, the solution is to load the magazines so the feed is one Critical Defense, one steel core, and one FMJ. Absent the steel core ammo, I'd alternate Critical Defense and FMJ. Assuming proper shot placement, any perp or animal that can absorb that kind of damage and keep coming is going to kill you anyway; but this would, I think, give you the best chance of surviving the encounter.

[Metronome]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Cyrano

I think that's exactly what he means. "A good run is better than a bad stand." No sane person not in a war zone goes around looking for a chance to shoot somebody. From my point of view, the solution is to load the magazines so the feed is one Critical Defense, one steel core, and one FMJ. Absent the steel core ammo, I'd alternate Critical Defense and FMJ. Assuming proper shot placement, any perp or animal that can absorb that kind of damage and keep coming is going to kill you anyway; but this would, I think, give you the best chance of surviving the encounter.

Love the first quote, quite appropriate.

Something I remember reading when Beretta introduced the Tomcat .32 pistol. Since you could tip the barrel up, the writer would load a quality HP round in first, followed by the magazine of FMJ's for reliable feeding. This could also be used in pistols that may have feeding issues with HP ammo. The other round I really like, but haven't heard much of is the Federal EFMJ with the rubber compound in the nose, also supposed to deal with the clogging HP situation.

[RNL]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Cyrano

If you can safely withdraw from a confrontation, it's better to do so. But if you can't, then you shoot to kill.

Actually, you shoot to stop, not to kill.

[big shrek]

Quote:       Originally Posted by RNL

Actually, you shoot to stop, not to kill.

You TELL the cops "that you shot until he stopped attacking"...for me, dead = stopped.

[HEMI]

Efmj's are for those states that have a hp restriction. They are not as good as
hp's but certainly better than fmj's, if your ccw or home defence gun will not
feed todays hp ammo, use or get one that will.

[Cyrano]

Quote:       Originally Posted by big shrek

You TELL the cops "that you shot until he stopped attacking"...for me, dead = stopped.

For me, too; but you're right. You tell the cops (who may not be your friends under those circumstances) that you shot "to eliminate the threat, because I was in fear of my life." Something along those lines. At that point, the next words out of your mouth should be, "I want a lawyer." People who try to 'explain' things to the police frequently end up explaining their way into jail. If I've learned nothing else from watching 20 years of Law & Order in its various permutations, I've learned that much!

[RNL]

Call me paranoid, but anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law, including anything you say online. Don't tell me they won't search out online comments.

[jtuck]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TACAV

I would HIGHLY suggest that anyone who carries a gun either for their job LEO/Military/security or for the responsible armed citizen who CCWs, to take some quality FORCE ON FORCE Scenario based training with simunitions. That will really get your stress level up and get your heart pumping and your brain thinking. Its the closest thing you can get to putting yourself in a real deadly threat situation. And until you are in one, you really dont know how you will react, "should you draw your gun? run away, comply with your attacker if he got the drop on you, and just hand over your wallet, run for cover?" What will you do after the incident?

Very good advice. It was very eye opening to see how people (including myself) reacted when the paint started flying. Some of the most unlikely people came through with flying colors while some who talked a big game left a little to be desired.

Once the sympathetic nervous system kicks in and you start experiencing tunnel vision and a loss of fine motor skills, all you have to fall back on is your training.

I'm with TACAV, I think anyone who is planning on carrying a gun whether for work or personal protection, should take some type of personal defense/tactical skills class. The NRA offers some outstanding classes on these topics that are specifically geared towards civilians.

[G. Green]

The force on force stuff is very good training and really amps up a person's thought process. If you do it and have any say ask if you can play the role of the BG at some point. I think I may have learned more as a trainer playing the BG than I did as student.

[jtuck]

Play the BG once and you will realize how vulnerable you, as the good guy, are.

[CoachSuper]

I agree.

If I'm defending my home, I doubt I'll need to shoot through body armour, windshields, car doors, 8 layers of denim.

If my attacker is in his car covered in denim overalls driving away, I feel I don't need to shoot him.

CS