I am getting a little cynical about how people test their defensive ammunition.
My first thought is how people complain that certain bullets 'fail' after passing through 4 layers of denim, to which my thoughts were how exactly would I wear clothing that would put four layers of regular denim between my skin and the outside world. Maybe if I wore a pair of denim overalls (with the big pocket in front, and I will count that as 2 layers) as well as a denim jacket that is big enough that I can layer the front twice (we are up to 4 layers). Now if I took a frontal shot, and the bullet doesn't expand, I will still have a same caliber hole somewhere in my chest... that sounds pretty effective to me.
Second, the ability to penetrate auto glass has no bearing for me, mainly because if the person I am going to defend myself from is on the opposite side of automotive glass, I am feeling pretty safe, and I can't imagine the legalities of needing to shoot someone on either side of a windshield. The only barriers I can find in my place of residence might be an interior door, or possibly my couch - which I am capable of throwing a screwdriver through either without much effort.
Also the thought of a 250 lb crackhead is of course scary for anyone, but thankfully, much like the deer in my area, most of the crackheads are generally around the 130 mark, and 12" of penetration is more than sufficient.
Of course we all want to prepare for the worst case scenario, but doing so can become excessive and I believe would qualify for the diminishing returns effect. I have only been involved in 2 violent enounters, and neither required violence to stop the encounter. I hope to keep my track record the same, but if need be, my top three rules are (in order of importance):
1) Run Away
2) Have a gun
3) Shot placement
anytihng else is considered a luxury!
feedback?
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Last edited by Metronome; 11-04-2009 at 12:26 AM.
Reason: yeah, i'm drinking - join in!
I am getting a little cynical about how people test their defensive ammunition.
My first thought is how people complain that certain bullets 'fail' after passing through 4 layers of denim, to which my thoughts were how exactly would I wear clothing that would put four layers of regular denim between my skin and the outside world. Maybe if I wore a pair of denim overalls (with the big pocket in front, and I will count that as 2 layers) as well as a denim jacket that is big enough that I can layer the front twice (we are up to 4 layers). Now if I took a frontal shot, and the bullet doesn't expand, I will still have a same caliber hole somewhere in my chest... that sounds pretty effective to me.
Second, the ability to penetrate auto glass has no bearing for me, mainly because if the person I am going to defend myself from is on the opposite side of automotive glass, I am feeling pretty safe, and I can't imagine the legalities of needing to shoot someone on either side of a windshield. The only barriers I can find in my place of residence might be an interior door, or possibly my couch - which I am capable of throwing a screwdriver through either without much effort.
Also the thought of a 250 lb crackhead is of course scary for anyone, but thankfully, much like the deer in my area, most of the crackheads are generally around the 130 mark, and 12" of penetration is more than sufficient.
Of course we all want to prepare for the worst case scenario, but doing so can become excessive and I believe would qualify for the diminishing returns effect. I have only been involved in 2 violent enounters, and neither required violence to stop the encounter. I hope to keep my track record the same, but if need be, my top three rules are (in order of importance):
1) Run Away
2) Have a gun
3) Shot placement
anytihng else is considered a luxury!
feedback?
I agree except for #1. If I'm in my home, I will not be running anywhere. If I'm on the street, and I get confronted/attacked, I am sure not going to run and risk getting shot in the back.
#2 and #3, I agree whole heartedly!
As for FBI protocol, I just use it as a comparison guideline between different brands of ammo. As you said, I don't use it as the absolute standard of an ammo's effectiveness.
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Well , If a Car is coming towards me to run me over , I want enough penetration to disable it ! If a Tweaker is Gonna attack me , I want to stop him dead in his tracks...And if it is a Gang attack wearing 4 layers of Denim, I want enough firepower to deal with the whole lot of them... And if a Grizzly Bear charges me when I walk out in My yard , I want a fighting Chance at survival...Thats basically all I want in any situation of Self Defense...A Fighting chance. There are a Lot of variables in these situations so my Choice is either a .45 ACP or a .44 Magnum...I want to stop the threat...Period !
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I agree with your top three rules, and the order in which you place them. Once again, I fall back to the question; When I put two holes in your chest, and one in your head, are you really going to worry about what size those holes are? (see rule #3 above)
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I agree with your top three rules, and the order in which you place them. Once again, I fall back to the question; When I put two holes in your chest, and one in your head, are you really going to worry about what size those holes are? (see rule #3 above)
I certainly will worry about how large those holes are. The bigger, the better but with certain limitations (like target re-acquisition). I know that as soon as I get my CCW I'll be carrying either a .45 acp or .44 magnum. No questions.
I am getting a little cynical about how people test their defensive ammunition.
My first thought is how people complain that certain bullets 'fail' after passing through 4 layers of denim, to which my thoughts were how exactly would I wear clothing that would put four layers of regular denim between my skin and the outside world. Maybe if I wore a pair of denim overalls (with the big pocket in front, and I will count that as 2 layers) as well as a denim jacket that is big enough that I can layer the front twice (we are up to 4 layers). Now if I took a frontal shot, and the bullet doesn't expand, I will still have a same caliber hole somewhere in my chest... that sounds pretty effective to me.
Its not so much a question of outright "failing". Its more geared toward "How well does Defensive ammo (Hollow Points) work through thick clothing (such as denim or heavy leather like a jacket) Some hollowpoint designs have been known to fail in regards to expansion as the core gets plugged up with material. The bullet still works it just acts as a ball round. Its only failing is failing to expand as it normally would.
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Second, the ability to penetrate auto glass has no bearing for me, mainly because if the person I am going to defend myself from is on the opposite side of automotive glass, I am feeling pretty safe, and I can't imagine the legalities of needing to shoot someone on either side of a windshield.
What if your sitting parked in your car or stopped at an intersection stuck in traffic, or stopped at an ATM and a carjacker, robber, or road raged maniac (its happened before) approaches you while your seated in your car? Just because you may think its unlikely doesn't mean it cant happen. When it comes to defensive scenarios, believe me, what seems improbable or unlikely, will happen.
As for someone trying to drive you over, if you have time to draw, aim and shoot into a windshield, you have time to get out of the way instead.
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Also the thought of a 250 lb crackhead is of course scary for anyone, but thankfully, much like the deer in my area, most of the crackheads are generally around the 130 mark, and 12" of penetration is more than sufficient.
Again, dont limit yourself in what you might encounter, prepare and train for the worse. There is a difference between a 130 pound meth head who is coming down off his high and wants to rob you to fund his next fix and a 130 pound man high out of his mind on PCP.
Ive been hands on with people (males and females) on PCP and its pretty mindblowing. Ive seen a little wiry skinny dude bash his head into a concrete wall (gashing himself) and punch a steel bench on purpose (breaking his hand in the process) and still keep on fighting while already peppersprayed with what seemed like the strength of someone 3 times his size.
Its not fun.
Don't have faith in the myth of a "one shot stop" even with good shot placement or "X" caliber. As for as many cases of someone insta dropping someone with a chest shot with a .45ACP, there are just as many instances as someone taking several center mass hits from the same cartridge who kept fighting on.
Keep shooting until the threat is no more.
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Of course we all want to prepare for the worst case scenario, but doing so can become excessive and I believe would qualify for the diminishing returns effect. I have only been involved in 2 violent enounters, and neither required violence to stop the encounter. I hope to keep my track record the same, but if need be, my top three rules are (in order of importance):
1) Run Away
2) Have a gun
3) Shot placement
anytihng else is considered a luxury!
feedback?
You cannot prepare/train enough for the worst case scenario, it can only help you. Hope for the best but train for the worst. In a fist fight, you and your attacker will be punched, in a knife fight, both you and your attacker will be cut, and in a gun fight, expect both you and your attacker to be shot.
As much as avoiding trouble is the best option you may not always be able too.
I would HIGHLY suggest that anyone who carries a gun either for their job LEO/Military/security or for the responsible armed citizen who CCWs, to take some quality FORCE ON FORCE Scenario based training with simunitions.
That will really get your stress level up and get your heart pumping and your brain thinking.
Its the closest thing you can get to putting yourself in a real deadly threat situation. And until you are in one, you really dont know how you will react,
"should you draw your gun? run away, comply with your attacker if he got the drop on you, and just hand over your wallet, run for cover?" What will you do after the incident?
etc etc
The below video is not meant as an advertisement but its a force on force training course put on by Tactical Response, a very good firearms training company. I post it here only as it shows you what you can expect from force on force training.
Your walking up to the ATM and someone comes up to you and puts a gun in your back, you come home and find someone has broken into your home and has your wife down on the ground with a knife to her throat, your sitting eating dinner at a restaurant with some buddies when a drunken man in the next booth over gets into an argument with someone else and pulls a gun....
Warning there is foul language, but again its all realistic scenarios that people have found themselves in.
Sorry , But I do NOT believe in #1...Running Away.
It will either get you shot in the Back , clubbed in the back of the skull, or in the case of a Grizzly Bear , It will get you eaten...you just became Prey and they can run 40 MPH or faster.
I sure can't , so Man or Beast , I stand My Ground and I have No duty to retreat...
#2 Having a Gun is worthless if You Dont Know HOW to Operate it ,If it is Condition 1 or Not,If you can't Clear a Jam , Or do a fast reload in an extended Gunfight...Or if you can't clear leather fast enough to avoid getting shot by the assailant.
#3 is Realistic and right on the Money. Practice , Practice , Practice !!!
Rich
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A good rule of thumb is 16 inches of penetration from any side from any angle regardless of JHP ammunition or not. Taking on vehicles is an iffy proposition with a handgun with the best of ammuition!!!
Hornady and Winchester to the rescue !!! Hornady has taken one of there hollow point bullets and stuffed the hole with a polymer similer to the tip material they use on the Leverevelotion bullets that defeats clothing layers, so they claim. It is said by filling the hollow point with the compound the hole does not fill with material from garments yet expands soon after going through garments.
I don't recall what the name or make up for the Winchester bullets is but it is a layered jacket I think. sorry...A.H
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Last edited by ArkansasHunter; 11-04-2009 at 03:27 AM.
I also agree that retreat is not an option ! You can't defend yourself running away . Not being able to see what your opposition is doing could get you killled .
Stay aware of your situation at all times and be prepared !
Practice Practice Practice .......
good video .....
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Sorry , But I do NOT believe in #1...Running Away.
It will either get you shot in the Back , clubbed in the back of the skull, or in the case of a Grizzly Bear , It will get you eaten...you just became Prey and they can run 40 MPH or faster.
Excellent point.
Maybe I should have worded that better, I guess a more appropriate choice would be something to the effect of: Be aware of your surroundings, or, don't put yourself in a dangerous situation.
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I never cease to be amazed by threads like this one. In the 33 years I have lived in this area, the only thing I have seen resembling a violent encounter outside of the rare fight in the high school was an incident in which a punk grabbed an elderly lady's purse and ran off with it. I was in my car, went the wrong way on a one way to cut him off. He saw me, dropped the purse and ran away.
That's not to say there is no violence around here, just that it's pretty unusual and that I have not seen it. Concealed carry is not uncommon among the citizenry, but use of the weapon by a carrier has not ever occurred so far as I know. Maybe it's partly because there have been article in the local paper about the increasing number of ccw permit holders. At any rate, I feel perfectly safe without carrying a weapon.
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Couple of deals come to mind. 1. No matter where you live there is probably someone in your town thinking about killing someone else in your town, or at least tearing them up real bad. Remember The Andy Griffith show? He talked about Mt Airy. Check this out Police: Four shot to death at Mount Airy TV store :: WRAL.com . 2. I won't leave my house too, but I suspect (hope) Metronome meant "tactical withdrawal" as opposed to turning tail and un-assing the area. Tactical withdrawal is not a bad option depending on the circumstances.
I never cease to be amazed by threads like this one. In the 33 years I have lived in this area, the only thing I have seen resembling a violent encounter outside of the rare fight in the high school was an incident in which a punk grabbed an elderly lady's purse and ran off with it. I was in my car, went the wrong way on a one way to cut him off. He saw me, dropped the purse and ran away.
That's not to say there is no violence around here, just that it's pretty unusual and that I have not seen it. Concealed carry is not uncommon among the citizenry, but use of the weapon by a carrier has not ever occurred so far as I know. Maybe it's partly because there have been article in the local paper about the increasing number of ccw permit holders. At any rate, I feel perfectly safe without carrying a weapon.
Ive lived in 6 states in my life, including several different places within those states, i wish I could say the same.
I was confronted by 4 males who tried to carjack me a few years ago and Ive been accosted off duty as well at a gas station and at an ATM on my days off.. Working the job I do I see dozens of robberies, assaults, stabbings, drug related crime, the occasional rape in the back ally, and shootings... My partner or I have also been confronted by or assaulted by either single individuals or small groups of scum bags trying to represent the "thug life"when we were doing plain clothes operations doing nothing more than standing on a street corner and talking or watching something else... (its always funny to see the wide eyed look of "OH SH_T" followed by "Oh Noo!" they get when they realize the two people they decided to go mess with are actually plain clothes LEOs )So I know stuff sure happens around here.
Stuff happens. We all live in quite a diverse and large nation. If you live in a place were that stuff doesnt happen Im happy for ya.
This is a gun forum so obviously we are discussing the gun carry issue here but just a reminder to everyone here including me, carrying a gun no matter how well trained you may be isnt the complete solution..
Its also being observant of your surroundings, walking wide around corners, looking inside that Seven Eleven stores big glass windows before you walk into a robbery, Staying in well lit public places, dont put yourself in a bad situation if you can help it to begin with.
If something doesnt feel right trust your gut and leave and get out... No need to make excuses. We all have had that tingling feeling when something just doesnt feel right.
Lock your house and car doors, Walk around confidently and purposesly and dont draw unwanted attention to yourselves. Criminals are dumb but they mostly arnt that dumb. They are predators and they look to pick out the prey that looks like they will be the least able to resist them.
I've been involved it a LOT of violent encounters...mostly due to my proximety being a bouncer/security at bars/hospitals & being a First Responder firefighter.
I've used Maglights, pistols, batons, martial arts techniques, & my big mouth to defend against & subdue all sorts of people. You do what you have to do.
It's a good exercise to think about every place you go to, and make at least two-three defensive/safety plans for each place. It's kind of like having a Fire Plan...What To Do IF?? sorta thing.
TACAV's right. You can't be too prepared, but you can darn sure be Unprepared.
If in doubt, go as big a caliber as you can handle properly. You can always grab yer ankle backup .380 instead I carry a 10mm as my primary CCW...I prefer being the only one left able to talk afterwards.
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As Big Shrek said "go big". I had a friend shoot a crankster with a .44 mag a few years ago. My buddy's comment on his gun choice was "I'll carry a .44.....until they make a .66".
Good points all and thanks especially TACAV and Metro for starting the thread.
Any bullets I buy MUST ALWAYS be able to do 2 things:
1. Reliably function in the gun.
2. Hit the target when I do my part.
Anything else is a bonus.
I like the FBI certification results of the .40 PDX because it guarantees me of a certain average bullet performance (and the round does do 1 and 2 in my guns so far). By no means does this mean a different round won't do the job well -- if a round fails the test on a technicality it doesn't mean it wouldn't work in my situation--only that I might need to look a bit closer to see if it fits my needs. Basically a certification of a round isn't alot different than the velocity information published by the manufacturer: In this gun this round goes this fast. It really means nothing else--if I don't hit the target well it really doesn't matter how fast the bullet is going nor how it performs when it hits a target (notwithstanding overpenetration concerns obviously).
There is no magic bullet, and when you are relying on a handgun it's the probably one of the worst firearms you could have at the time (compared to a rifle/shotgun). But most of us would have trouble CCWing a rifle/shotgun and the "have a gun" or "have a free hand" factor of a handgun more than outweighs its drawbacks in a defensive situation.
Cheers
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Teach
)So I know stuff sure happens around here.
I carry a 10mm as my primary CCW...I prefer being the only one left able to talk afterwards.
