[GlockMeister]

It certainly is a sad fact isn't it.

Another sad fact is there are even many gang bangers that have joined, or if you prefer, infiltrated our military. Just for the training. And we all know once in a gang always in. I mean, the only way out is death right? So after the miltary, where might they return? And it'll be expected of them to teach what they've been taught...

[sea_chicken1]

Quote:       Originally Posted by redrider13

Am I a normal or abnormal person? I'm fit. I don't watch TV except for a few hours (2-3 shows) a week. I try to stay away from video games (but they're pretty addictive). I'm supposed to be a 2nd year engineering student (taking a break this semester for $$$ reasons). I want to join up (Navy) after I graduate (Entering OCS and flight school if everything goes good). I would consider myself a leader (Eagle Scout). The thing is, if 70% of my generation is unfit for the military, wouldn't that now become the "normal" making me abnormal? I am truly disheartened by this news if it does hold any legitimacy.

Do a tour as enlisted before you go into an officer program. It will give you a better real world perspective and you will better understand the aircraft and the people you will be working with.

[Taurus Fan]

Fitness aside, I wonder what the portion is that's due to dropping out of high school or having a juvenile record. Higher standards for education and not having any problems with the law have taken away something that the military once offered young people, a chance to go in the military and get their lives straightened out. Not too long ago a kid who had dropped out of school and been arrested a few times could enlist and after serving his time, get on with his life. Army/Marines once were considered a way to get a leg up for kids with a spotty past and that's not a door open to such anymore.

[billy]

70 Percent of Young Americans Are Unfit TO MOW MY LAWN.

[SightNSqueeze]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Taurus Fan

Fitness aside, I wonder what the portion is that's due to dropping out of high school or having a juvenile record. Higher standards for education and not having any problems with the law have taken away something that the military once offered young people, a chance to go in the military and get their lives straightened out. Not too long ago a kid who had dropped out of school and been arrested a few times could enlist and after serving his time, get on with his life. Army/Marines once were considered a way to get a leg up for kids with a spotty past and that's not a door open to such anymore.

The problem with using today's military as a medium for straightening out troubled young people is that it is so much smaller and streamlined compared to the Cold War military of the 50s, 60s, 70, and 80s. Many support MOSs are contracted out to professional agencies that provide services only to the military. These contractors actually do a very good job keeping fighting equipment in top condition, training personnel, and providing all of the daily services that the reduced military can no longer handle. Many if not most of the personnel are prior service veterans and they continue to fit well into the military structure. Instead of trying to fit troubled young people into the military, our society needs to "change" the sub-culture that young people created for themselves so that they will be ready for the enhanced challenges of today's armed forces without having to be “re-indoctrinated” into normal society.

[sea_chicken1]

LOL BIlly...

[99z28monster]

Quote:       Originally Posted by LarryO1970

... it IS an entitlement for service ... I will not (personally) hold that against them. It's better than those who demand they are owed something for nothing in current society. At least those are the college kids who actually are applying themselves instead of whining that they aren't 'being taken care of' ... ... the real servicemen and women are those who stay in after their first enlistment. Larry O

Perhaps but during a soldiers first enlistment he/she can serve two maybe three tours in Iraq. I would not blame anyone who got out after the first enlistment and would call them real service men and women just the same as a 20+ year career soldier. Quality of time is what matters, not the length of time served.

[Whootsinator]

*Proud to be in the 30%*

[Rambo]

Quote:       Originally Posted by GlockMeister

It certainly is a sad fact isn't it. Another sad fact is there are even many gang bangers that have joined, or if you prefer, infiltrated our military. Just for the training. And we all know once in a gang always in. I mean, the only way out is death right? So after the miltary, where might they return? And it'll be expected of them to teach what they've been taught...

If that's the case, marksmanship must not be taught in the military anymore. These guys can't hit their targets doing drive-bys. They wind up hitting the wrong people.

[billy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by billy

70 Percent of Young Americans Are Unfit TO MOW MY LAWN.

Quote:       Originally Posted by sea_chicken1

LOL BIlly...

nyuk

[milproakron]

I haven't read all of the responses, so my apologies if anyone else chimed in with this point of view and I truly don't mean to offend anyone..... but, I'm sure I will.. LoL

The survey is less than 100% accurate only in that it is judging people by current military standards. As a member of the military I can say without hesitation that MANY of the young soldiers entering the service today ARE NOT FIT FOR DUTY. They have lowered the standards to the point if idiocy and self-destructiveness.

Basic training today is not a challenge. Advanced Individual Training is not a challenge. virtually ALL recruits are passed regardless of thier scores or accomplishments. You don't even have to pass a physical fitness test in order to pass basic training today. It turns my stomach. What they have done to my Army doesn't just sicken me, it makes me very sad.

I observe and take part in modern training... its pathetic. Most of the kids training right now, right here, at Fort Jackson will arrive at their units unprepared, unmotivated, lacking discipline, lacking military bearing, and will likely die the very moment bullets start to fly.

NCOs and Instructors are not much more impressive, including Drill Sergeants. I observed some official patrol and procedure training this morning and not only had to bite my tongue, but had to stop myself from walking over and giving one of my notorious WTF lectures.

Pampered, weak, fat, unprofessional.... but all full of self esteem. That is todays typical recruit. Take that, and add to the fact that they aren't being properly trained in their combat tasks and you have a recipe for disaster. Luckily I will be retired before these kids make it up the food chain and are in charge of anything.

This is a TRADOC post! Things should be perfect. Training should be exact and by the book. The best and the brightest should be conducting that training to help ensure the survival of the next generation of soldiers. Sadly, that isn't the case. The 10% or 15% of them that I look at and think, "Yeah that kids gonna make it" are not enough to lead our Army into the next conflict.

A full about face is what is needed. Old school and hardcore is the solution. Screw your self esteem. You will earn it when you are proud that you did something most people are incapable of doing. But, to make them earn that, the standards have to be raised back up to the level they were at least 20 years ago. They are so desperate to meet recruiting goals and fill vacant slots that they will accept anyone today. Many of the soldiers I encounter today wouldn't have gotten a second phone call from a recruiter, let alone enter the service at E3 or E4 20 years ago.

Got college? Hey, you're an E4 on entry. E5 is an automatic promotion now, congratulations, you're an NCO! You're fat, lazy, poorly trained, unmotivated, can't shoot, move, and communicate, but guess what...?... you get to be in charge now. ...and in the days of my first enlistment, that soldier would have been a basic training wash-out. And dont give me the "but they served in Iraq" argument either, because if you are a dirtbag in training and in garrison, chances are, you're a dirtbag on deployment as well. We've all seen those.

So, apologies for the rant, but it kills me. 75% unfit for duty today? No. More like 90%. Until we stop the downward spiral our country is in with regard to patriotism and the American way, strength, honor, courage.... it can only get worse.

[mitchr]

If the only problem is overweight, should go ahead & take them. Work their rear ends off in basic training. Even extend basic training a few weeks, if necessary. In fact, maybe we should temporarily re-instate the draft just to get rid of the fat kids. Could go a step further & include the iliterate ones & keep them in basic training until they can read & write (english only).

[Cyrano]

Again, we're back to Heinlein. Conceding that Starship Troopers is a work of fiction, we do need to remember that Heinlein was Annapolis, Class of 1928, on the Navy Pistol team for awhile, and went through jungle warfare training in Panama before he was invalided out of the Navy due to tuberculosis. He has more than a clue when he observes things like this:

"I may have given the impression that boot camp was made harder than necessary. This is not correct. It was made as hard as possible and on purpose."

"...much more important than the purpose of carving away the fat quickly and saving the government the training costs of those who would never cut it, was the prime purpose of making as sure as was humanly possible that no cap trooper ever climbed into a capsule for a combat drop unless he was prepared for it -- fit, resolute, disciplined and skilled. If he is not, it's not fair to the Federation, it's certainly not fair to his teammates, and worst of all it's not fair to him."

"The best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony and sweat and devotion... and the price demanded for the most precious of all things in life is life itself -- ultimate cost for perfect value."

" 'Delinquent' means 'failing in duty.' But duty is an adult virtue -- indeed a juvenile becomes an adult when, and only when, he acquires a knowledge of duty and embraces it as dearer than the self-love he was born with. There never was, there cannot be, a 'juvenile delinquent.' But for every juvenile criminal there are always one or more adult delinquents -- people of mature years who either do not know their duty, or who, knowing it, fail."

"You would find it much easier to instill moral virtue -- social responsibility -- into a person who doesn't have it, doesn't want it, and resents having the burden thrust on him. This is why we make it so hard to enroll, so easy to resign. Social responsibility above the level of family, or at most of tribe, requires imagination -- devotion, loyalty, all the higher virtues -- which a man must develop himself; if he has them forced down him, he will vomit them out."

Starship Troopers is not required reading at any of the service academies or at DI School or the equivalents in the other services. Perhaps it should be. The points Heinlein made about about the soldierly virtues are as relevant today as they ever were. The problem with America these days is that too few people are concerned with their duty to the country, only with the privileges and rights bought for them by the sacrifices of those who have gone before us.

[Rambo]

Quote:       Originally Posted by milproakron

I haven't read all of the responses, so my apologies if anyone else chimed in with this point of view and I truly don't mean to offend anyone..... but, I'm sure I will.. LoL The survey is less than 100% accurate only in that it is judging people by current military standards. As a member of the military I can say without hesitation that MANY of the young soldiers entering the service today ARE NOT FIT FOR DUTY. They have lowered the standards to the point if idiocy and self-destructiveness. Basic training today is not a challenge. Advanced Individual Training is not a challenge. virtually ALL recruits are passed regardless of thier scores or accomplishments. You don't even have to pass a physical fitness test in order to pass basic training today. It turns my stomach. What they have done to my Army doesn't just sicken me, it makes me very sad. I observe and take part in modern training... its pathetic. Most of the kids training right now, right here, at Fort Jackson will arrive at their units unprepared, unmotivated, lacking discipline, lacking military bearing, and will likely die the very moment bullets start to fly. NCOs and Instructors are not much more impressive, including Drill Sergeants. I observed some official patrol and procedure training this morning and not only had to bite my tongue, but had to stop myself from walking over and giving one of my notorious WTF lectures. Pampered, weak, fat, unprofessional.... but all full of self esteem. That is todays typical recruit. Take that, and add to the fact that they aren't being properly trained in their combat tasks and you have a recipe for disaster. Luckily I will be retired before these kids make it up the food chain and are in charge of anything. This is a TRADOC post! Things should be perfect. Training should be exact and by the book. The best and the brightest should be conducting that training to help ensure the survival of the next generation of soldiers. Sadly, that isn't the case. The 10% or 15% of them that I look at and think, "Yeah that kids gonna make it" are not enough to lead our Army into the next conflict. A full about face is what is needed. Old school and hardcore is the solution. Screw your self esteem. You will earn it when you are proud that you did something most people are incapable of doing. But, to make them earn that, the standards have to be raised back up to the level they were at least 20 years ago. They are so desperate to meet recruiting goals and fill vacant slots that they will accept anyone today. Many of the soldiers I encounter today wouldn't have gotten a second phone call from a recruiter, let alone enter the service at E3 or E4 20 years ago. Got college? Hey, you're an E4 on entry. E5 is an automatic promotion now, congratulations, you're an NCO! You're fat, lazy, poorly trained, unmotivated, can't shoot, move, and communicate, but guess what...?... you get to be in charge now. ...and in the days of my first enlistment, that soldier would have been a basic training wash-out. And dont give me the "but they served in Iraq" argument either, because if you are a dirtbag in training and in garrison, chances are, you're a dirtbag on deployment as well. We've all seen those. So, apologies for the rant, but it kills me. 75% unfit for duty today? No. More like 90%. Until we stop the downward spiral our country is in with regard to patriotism and the American way, strength, honor, courage.... it can only get worse.

I would have to agree. After being out 10 years, I went back in. The level of training, fitness, anything, was nowhere near what it was when I first went in. I was disillusioned and after a year, I left the service once more.

[wideym]

I have seen many basic traninees not fit for duty when they arrive, thats why there is a basic training. It get's them in shape by the time they are done, or else they recycle through another basic training unit or are chaptered out.

The truth be told, I was not phyically ready for basic training back in 88' and was actually 3 pounds underweight for my height. I spent just over 10 years in the Infantry before getting out and joining the Nat.Guard in 99'. After ten years of active duty I was tired of the PC bullshit, lack of funds for training, and "feel good" peacekeeping deployments.

[Rave]

70%,wow,that's a lot!
Sounds like history repeating itself concerning the decline of many past powers.
We don't have a draft like we used to so that we could choose at least a cross pattern of draftees.
Now we must wait for the decline in economic conditions to drive many in to the ranks.
Hopefully some of that great 30% will rise to the occassion,many have in the past and kept us afloat.
That 30% should be treated better than our country treats it's vet now,it is a shame imo.
As for that 70%,well I guess they are just a sign o' the times.

[mitchr]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Rambo

I would have to agree. After being out 10 years, I went back in. The level of training, fitness, anything, was nowhere near what it was when I first went in. I was disillusioned and after a year, I left the service once more.

The libs have made the military into a social experiment.

[Beer Forever]

I have seen a lot of people who have to weigh in and get taped off every week, it is sad. Once I started working with the Marin Corps as their Corpsman, that all went away. Since I have become FMF, I have not seen any physical or educational history that is suspect. They don't mess around

[Rambo]

Quote:       Originally Posted by mitchr

The libs have made the military into a social experiment.

It was during the Reagan years. The only time I can remember having all the ammo to shoot I wanted was during Nixon's years. He took care of us.

[DesertRaider109]

A while back I was talking to a guy who had worked for a private contractor training Marines at Pendleton. He talked about almost all of the new recruits aren't fit and can't carry the packs and web gear and the rifle at all anymore.

I always figured that, were I to enlist, I would immediately get into the best shape I could so training wasn't so damn hard.