Ok,I am kind of upset for being completely kicked out of another website for standing up for my beliefs against someone who insists i'm wrong.Here is my scenerio:I live in a state that no registration is required for long gun sales or transfers.I asked if I could buy a gun,then maybe a few days later,if I don't like the gun,if I can sell it to a buddy who may have had his eye on it the day I bought it.Private sales of long guns are legal to all non felons 18 years and older without permit.Well,this other person is adament that I would be committing a felony "straw sale" and will be looking at hard time for simply selling my gun to someone who may or may not have wanted the gun for himself when I bought it.I just don't see where I am wrong,I don't see the crime.Can anyone show me this law he is talking about and tell me how I would be breaking the law by legally selling my gun.
A straw purchase is an illegal firearm purchase where the actual buyer of the gun, being unable to pass the required federal background check or desiring to not have his or her name associated with the transaction, uses a proxy buyer who can pass the required background check to purchase the firearm for him/her. It is highly illegal and punishable by a $250,000 fine and 10 years in prison.
If few criminals obtain their firearms via straw purchasing, why does the firearms industry spend so much time and money on the Don't Lie program?
The firearms industry takes very seriously the criminal acquisition and misuse of its products. While there is nothing the industry can do to stop a criminal from stealing a firearm or buying one on the street illegally, the industry can make sure that firearms dealers are as prepared as possible to recognize and stop any would-be straw purchaser. Even if the number of criminals who obtain their firearms through straw purchasing is very low, through awareness programs such as Don't Lie, that number could fall even more.
Basically, since you MENTIONED the possibility of selling it to someone else shortly after getting it...you raised BIG RED FLAGS over that seller's head. That's why they booted you.
It falls under the category of "Don't even mention the possibility" on that subject...especially after NY just pulled it's fast one on the Pennsylvania gun shows a couple months ago...everyone is running scared.
While you may very well be just honestly thinking, "If I don't like it, I can sell it to someone else later"...you can't actually SAY that during the process of the sale.
Let's put it this way...last year I went to buy a pistol for my wife for her birthday...and talked to several dealers while she was looking at other tables. Some wouldn't even talk to me about the possibility of a purchase if she wasn't standing right there...because it would be me buying a gun for someone else...Stupid?? YEAH...but that's what we are stuck with. I paid for it, she went thru the Background Check.
How do you like your CHANGE, now?
__________________ Marlin & Calico Specialist
I'm not just Trigger Happy, I'm Trigger Ecstatic!!
A straw purchase is when you intentionally purchase a firearm for another adult who might not be able to pass the NICS. In your state, you may sell it to another adult FTF at your pleasure. Just make sure you get a written receipt to show transfer of ownership.
__________________ I keep tellin ya Doc, I'm in pretty good shape considerin the shape I'm in !!
I am not weary of selling any of my handguns privatly,since where I live(Michigan)all handgun purchases must be done with a pistol purchase permit(excluding ccw holders)So if I bought a handgun for my buddy,he would have to go through the NICS to recieve the gun,so that don't raise any flags.But long guns here are a little more gray area here,since no long guns need to be registered,nor is a NICS mandatory.So buying a long gun and selling it is legal on my part,but it still may get into the hands of someone who isn't supposed to have it,and that might somehow come back on me.
My understanding of this, after rereading the dandy book the BATFE sends to all Class 03 Curio & Relic license holders, is that as long as you are selling the longarm to someone who is not disqualified from owning a firearm - in other words, someone who could pass a Form 4473 NICS check - it is not a straw purchase. I agree that it may raise eyebrows if you buy a rifle, take it to the range, decide it's not a rifle for you and then sell or swap it to your buddy before you've owned it long enough to detail-strip it; but it's not illegal.
Pistols may be a different matter. Private party sales of longarms are pretty much ignored in all states; but in some the law complicates things by requiring approval of the transfer. In New York, for instance, you can sell a pistol to another person; but before the other person can take delivery, he/she has to go to the county clerk and obtain a coupon from the judge approving the sale and give it to you to attach to your copy of the bill of sale.
Just don't make a habit of it, and no one will think ill of you for swiftly disposing of a gun that just isn't you.
[QUOTE][My understanding of this, after rereading the dandy book the BATFE sends to all Class 03 Curio & Relic license holders, is that as long as you are selling the longarm to someone who is not disqualified from owning a firearm - in other words, someone who could pass a Form 4473 NICS check - it is not a straw purchase./QUOTE]
This is exactly what my gut has been telling me.I got slammed pretty hard by others for bringing up the topic on other sites.
QUOTE:Pistols may be a different matter. Private party sales of longarms are pretty much ignored in all states; but in some the law complicates things by requiring approval of the transfer. In New York, for instance, you can sell a pistol to another person; but before the other person can take delivery, he/she has to go to the county clerk and obtain a coupon from the judge approving the sale and give it to you to attach to your copy of the bill of sale.Quote
Same here in Michigan,a private handgun buyer must be 18 years old and come equipped with a pistol purchase permit to buy a handgun from a private seller.
Ok,I am kind of upset for being completely kicked out of another website for standing up for my beliefs against someone who insists i'm wrong.Here is my scenerio:I live in a state that no registration is required for long gun sales or transfers.I asked if I could buy a gun,then maybe a few days later,if I don't like the gun,if I can sell it to a buddy who may have had his eye on it the day I bought it.Private sales of long guns are legal to all non felons 18 years and older without permit.Well,this other person is adament that I would be committing a felony "straw sale" and will be looking at hard time for simply selling my gun to someone who may or may not have wanted the gun for himself when I bought it.I just don't see where I am wrong,I don't see the crime.Can anyone show me this law he is talking about and tell me how I would be breaking the law by legally selling my gun.
What you are describing is in no way a "straw sale." A "straw sale" is where one individual buys a firearm specifically for someone that individual knows is not qualified to own the firearm (i.e. convicted felon, under age, etc.). If your state permits transfer of firearms between individuals with no paperwork or encumberances (like TX) there is nothing wrong with buying a firearm and later selling or giving that firearm to someone else--provided that individual is eligible to own it (not a convicted felon, etc.). Also, in TX there is no requirement to in any way track the gun if you sell it so a bill of sale, signed form, etc. is not required in any way--it's totally up to you. Some people like this, some people not (and having too much paperwork can be as bad as having too little). Bottom line is if the gun is later used in some form of crime and the 4473 on record at the dealer lists you as the original owner you might have to answer some questions later (but a "I sold it/gave it away to a person eligible to have it/etc." is a perfectly valid response).
Having said that, sellers are required to be on the lookout for potential straw sales and what you might do with the firearm after YOU buy it for YOU is up to YOU and NONE of their business--I'd probably just buy the gun for you and keep quiet about any contingency plans about the future in that it might provoke just a response that you got--with someone who I believe misunderstood the law. Some times in life it doesn't pay to provide someone with too much information (that they don't need or necessarily want).
There is an additional requirement that the transferee be a resident of the same state with handguns but I know of no requirement for long guns.
Good luck.
__________________
God gives us free will; the statist tries to take it away
The person who made the original post wanted to have a long gun shipped from an online dealer to an FFL dealer.He was legal to pick up any long gun at that dealer,but he could not buy the gun directly from the website,since the website won't sell long guns to someone under 21,and he is 18,even though federal law says 18,for whatever reason,that site won't accept a buyer under 21.I simply asked him if he had someone,such as a family member that could purchase the gun,and then give,or sell the gun to him.Wow,that statement I made sparked a huge bash party on me.I was told that what I said was the best description of a "straw purchase"that they had heard in a long time.I replied that I did not believe it was a "straw purchase"because he was not doing anything illegal,he was legal to possess a long gun,he is not a felon or mental incapable person,or under age.But I got at least 20 posts back telling me that I was wrong,and not one person agreed with me,they all said he would face hard time for committing a felony.
^ I think the problem here is that the first question on the 4473 asks are you the actual purchaser of the firearm and if that for any reason isn't the case you could get into big trouble for lying on the form--which IS a felony I believe. You need to be buying the gun for YOU when you fill out the form and be the actual purchaser.
But I know of nothing that prevents someone buying a firearm for themself and later gifting or selling the firearm to someone else (who is qualified to receive it). In most sane firearms states I've lived in it is perfectly legal according to state and federal law for a parent to buy a firearm and later gift it to a child who is legally allowed to possess it (or vice versa). Now if you filled out the form with the INTENT of not being the original purchaser--i.e. buying the gun "for" another person that is a different story and you could be guilty of a crime. You might get into this realm if you were the one picking up the gun with someone else paying irregardless of whether or not both of you were legally entitled to own the gun and find yourself in a bad situation.
But this is all from how I've read it and I could always be wrong so's you might wish to consult a lawyer (and probably even then you'd get 4 or 5 different opinions).
The BAD thing in this whole deal is theoretically one might be gone after for a "straw sale" when the intent of the law is to keep guns out of the hands of criminals--the intent of the straw law was that someone who could legally buy a firearm be prevented from buying one for someone who couldn't legally possess one. But like most all gun control laws it goes awry and only the innocent are punished--and criminals still get guns.
But what would make more sense in the case you mentioned is for someone over 21 to prepay the rifle from the online website and have it shipped to a FFL for pickup by the actual 18 year old buyer (assuming 18 is the legal age in the state where it's being picked up--I don't know this to be true but I'm using your example) and the local FFL does all the paperwork with the buyer and owner of the rifle -- this way EVERYTHING is above board because the actual transferee is the one filling out the paperwork, picking up and keeping the rifle to begin with (it shouldn't matter one way or another to the local FFL who paid for the rifle as long as he does everything legally and gets his transfer fee).
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God gives us free will; the statist tries to take it away
