I am crazy, missing something, or so blinded by having my basic rights violated...
Yesterday afternoon I went to the county courthouse. I went thru the whole nine yards of removing everything metal from my clothing and putting the contents of my pockets in a bucket. Then I went thru the metal detector. Cool. After that, I collected my things and asked to be pointed in the direction of the sheriff's office. The lovely deputy pointed and said "two doors down, on the left. Have a nice day, ma'am".
So, I continued into the sheriff's office. Then I requested a form for my "license to carry firearms". The woman at the desk hands me not one, but two sheets of paper. At this point, a red flag just threw up all over me. The woman continues. "You must submit on the small sheet of paper why you want to have the license". I must have given her a dumbassed look, because she said "you know, like... why you wanna carry a gun...?".
The law states that the application may NOT be more than one page long. By the sheriff's office REQUIRING that you submit the second page, they're breaking the law and violating our rights.
Technically I could doodle on the paper and return it with the words written on it "because I can".
Here is an excerpt from the sheriff's site for my county.
License to Carry Firearms (Concealment Permit) If you are interested in applying for a concealment permit, please read the following guidelines and procedure:
You must be 21 years of age or older.
You must fill out the application in its entirety with current and accurate information.
On the application, you must provide (2) character references (NOT FAMILY MEMBERS). List their names, addresses and telephone numbers.
The Sheriff’s Office requires a typed or hand-written letter from you stating the basic reason(s) for applying for a concealment permit on standard 8 ½ X 11 paper.
The Sheriff’s Office recommends that your picture be displayed on the permit, however, this is optional. You may provide your own picture (two current head-shots 1" x 1" in size or the Sheriff’s Office may take your picture for an extra fee of $3.00.
After filling out the application, please read statement #41 and sign and date the front of the application when you bring it in.
Return to our office with a check, money order or cash for $25.00 ($28.00 if the Sheriff's Office will be taking your picture) and your driver's license/photo ID.
IF ANY OF THE ABOVE REQUIREMENTS ARE NOT COMPLETED, THE APPLICATION WILL BE RETURNED TO YOU.
NOTE: Processing of this application may take up to 45 days and may require an interview with a Deputy Sheriff, which will also include a basic background investigation. If you have any questions, feel free to contact the Venango County Sheriff’s Office at 814-432-9562.
If I had the time, I'd also include the portion from the "PA Right to Bear Arms"... but I'm off to work now.
What do you all think? Am I crazy or are they violating our rights?
By the way, my best friend's application was returned the very next day as "incomplete". She submitted it half an hour before the office closed, and the very next morning she was required to come in for an interview. She refused because she said it violated her rights, and they refuse to give her a license now. Six other people applied, all male, and were NOT required to give an interview. Explain that to me...
Sorry if this is long, or if it is in the wrong place.
Have a nice day.
__________________
"Words are like bullets, there's no taking them back once you've fired your mouth off".
"The Sheriff’s Office requires a typed or hand-written letter from you stating the basic reason(s) for applying for a concealment permit on standard 8 ½ X 11 paper."
Is Pa a "Shall Issue" state? If not, thsi may be perfectly legal within their laws.
Florida is a "Shall Issue" state, not requiring a reason. If the authorities have no record of wrong-doing for us or other valid reason, they MUST give us our CCW.
Whoa, I didn't have anything of the sort to fill out in Fayette County, PA. It was the standard 1-page application, which I filled out at home and then returned. The clerk told me it would take about 45 days to clear a new permit to carry application. It took slightly less. They called me, I picked up the permit, and it was over. Don't understand this at all. Call your local congressman to find out if the Sheriff's office can institute additional questions. And, yes, PA is a "Shall Issue" state.
__________________ Go ahead, Makarov my day!~~makarov.com
Wow, that's a tough one MK.
Is PA a "shall issue state" or a "may issue" state?
You might wanna post this on the CCW subforum, or the PA subforum.
Kinda hard for people not familiar with PA law to give good answer. Here is OK we're closer to requiring people to carry than jacking with them for wanting to.
I am crazy, missing something, or so blinded by having my basic rights violated...
Yesterday afternoon I went to the county courthouse. I went thru the whole nine yards of removing everything metal from my clothing and putting the contents of my pockets in a bucket. Then I went thru the metal detector. Cool. After that, I collected my things and asked to be pointed in the direction of the sheriff's office. The lovely deputy pointed and said "two doors down, on the left. Have a nice day, ma'am".
So, I continued into the sheriff's office. Then I requested a form for my "license to carry firearms". The woman at the desk hands me not one, but two sheets of paper. At this point, a red flag just threw up all over me. The woman continues. "You must submit on the small sheet of paper why you want to have the license". I must have given her a dumbassed look, because she said "you know, like... why you wanna carry a gun...?".
The law states that the application may NOT be more than one page long. By the sheriff's office REQUIRING that you submit the second page, they're breaking the law and violating our rights.
Technically I could doodle on the paper and return it with the words written on it "because I can".
Here is an excerpt from the sheriff's site for my county.
License to Carry Firearms (Concealment Permit) If you are interested in applying for a concealment permit, please read the following guidelines and procedure:
You must be 21 years of age or older.
You must fill out the application in its entirety with current and accurate information.
On the application, you must provide (2) character references (NOT FAMILY MEMBERS). List their names, addresses and telephone numbers.
The Sheriff’s Office requires a typed or hand-written letter from you stating the basic reason(s) for applying for a concealment permit on standard 8 ½ X 11 paper.
The Sheriff’s Office recommends that your picture be displayed on the permit, however, this is optional. You may provide your own picture (two current head-shots 1" x 1" in size or the Sheriff’s Office may take your picture for an extra fee of $3.00.
After filling out the application, please read statement #41 and sign and date the front of the application when you bring it in.
Return to our office with a check, money order or cash for $25.00 ($28.00 if the Sheriff's Office will be taking your picture) and your driver's license/photo ID.
IF ANY OF THE ABOVE REQUIREMENTS ARE NOT COMPLETED, THE APPLICATION WILL BE RETURNED TO YOU.
NOTE: Processing of this application may take up to 45 days and may require an interview with a Deputy Sheriff, which will also include a basic background investigation. If you have any questions, feel free to contact the Venango County Sheriff’s Office at 814-432-9562.
If I had the time, I'd also include the portion from the "PA Right to Bear Arms"... but I'm off to work now.
What do you all think? Am I crazy or are they violating our rights?
By the way, my best friend's application was returned the very next day as "incomplete". She submitted it half an hour before the office closed, and the very next morning she was required to come in for an interview. She refused because she said it violated her rights, and they refuse to give her a license now. Six other people applied, all male, and were NOT required to give an interview. Explain that to me...
Sorry if this is long, or if it is in the wrong place.
Have a nice day.
Pa is a "shall issue" state. As I said above, I would call your congressman to see if there is some latitude in what the local Sheriff's Office can institute as requirements for a permit. My Fayette Co. application had all of the above information, but required only 1 current photo. The reason for wanting to carry--collector, self-defense, etc.--was listed on the one-page application and could be "x'd" in. Apparently, the local Sheriff does have some latitude in devising the permit requirements. But the bottom line is, if you follow the requirements, PA is a "shall issue" state.
__________________ Go ahead, Makarov my day!~~makarov.com
This pizz's me off reading this !!!! Why can't they be like Arkansas where you go to the class and listen, sign papers for a back ground check by the FBI.
Then go shoot and wait 90 days for the permit to come.
Why does a Sheriff's office have to have there nose in it ??? Who the WELL are they ?
If PA is indeed a "shall issue" state, contact the NRA for a recommendation for an attorney knowledgeable on firearms law to help you write a formal complaint to submit to the state Attorney General and send copies to the governor and your state representative. If you want to be nice you can advise the Sheriff that he's breaking his oath and the law and give him a chance to do right before you have state authorities breathing down his neck.
P.S. You might even get the Sheriff named in an NRA ad ;-)
__________________
My rifle and pistol are only tools. I am the weapon.
That is just plain bizarre. All I had to have out here in Wyo is $79, my Hunter's Safety Card or any other class honored by the NRA and 60-90 days of wait time. Hope everythin comes out Miss Lady. =)
__________________
The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.
—Patrick Henry
while everyone gave good advice already i do have to mention its perfectly legal for local governments to make more restrictive laws as long as it does not violate your rights . requiring you to filling out a reason is not a violation unless they state a stipulation where the reason would not be good enough on that second form.
then they would be in violation of your rights as they would be passing judgement.
If they in fact turn you down and there is no county law on the books though you can have a go at em and even cite the phrase " i was made to feel like a criminal and not allowed to to carry out my constitutional rights "
( very powerful statement that a lawyer i know uses regularly )
Hmm,..... I went to the sheriff's office,filled out the application indicating reason for the permit (SD),provided my driver's license with pic, they
dial-up the PICS line,hand them the fee, she gives me my permit.
Total time about 20 minutes................ just like buying a gun.
Although they reserve the right to revoke within a certain time frame
(? 45 or 90 days) with just cause, if found.
I live in Tioga county PA. The 45 days is the max time allowed by the sheriffs office to process the application. I also know some county sheriffs can and are more strigent than others. Is this fair? No. My CCW came back in 8 days from my office. I also believe they asked my reason and I checked "protection".
Maybe with new sherrif it will go better. I would inform them of your rights first and give them a chance before getting lawyers involved.
I am crazy, missing something, or so blinded by having my basic rights violated...
Yesterday afternoon I went to the county courthouse. I went thru the whole nine yards of removing everything metal from my clothing and putting the contents of my pockets in a bucket. Then I went thru the metal detector. Cool. After that, I collected my things and asked to be pointed in the direction of the sheriff's office. The lovely deputy pointed and said "two doors down, on the left. Have a nice day, ma'am".
So, I continued into the sheriff's office. Then I requested a form for my "license to carry firearms". The woman at the desk hands me not one, but two sheets of paper. At this point, a red flag just threw up all over me. The woman continues. "You must submit on the small sheet of paper why you want to have the license". I must have given her a dumbassed look, because she said "you know, like... why you wanna carry a gun...?".
The law states that the application may NOT be more than one page long. By the sheriff's office REQUIRING that you submit the second page, they're breaking the law and violating our rights.
Technically I could doodle on the paper and return it with the words written on it "because I can".
Here is an excerpt from the sheriff's site for my county.
License to Carry Firearms (Concealment Permit) If you are interested in applying for a concealment permit, please read the following guidelines and procedure:
You must be 21 years of age or older.
You must fill out the application in its entirety with current and accurate information.
On the application, you must provide (2) character references (NOT FAMILY MEMBERS). List their names, addresses and telephone numbers.
The Sheriff’s Office requires a typed or hand-written letter from you stating the basic reason(s) for applying for a concealment permit on standard 8 ½ X 11 paper.
The Sheriff’s Office recommends that your picture be displayed on the permit, however, this is optional. You may provide your own picture (two current head-shots 1" x 1" in size or the Sheriff’s Office may take your picture for an extra fee of $3.00.
After filling out the application, please read statement #41 and sign and date the front of the application when you bring it in.
Return to our office with a check, money order or cash for $25.00 ($28.00 if the Sheriff's Office will be taking your picture) and your driver's license/photo ID.
IF ANY OF THE ABOVE REQUIREMENTS ARE NOT COMPLETED, THE APPLICATION WILL BE RETURNED TO YOU.
NOTE: Processing of this application may take up to 45 days and may require an interview with a Deputy Sheriff, which will also include a basic background investigation. If you have any questions, feel free to contact the Venango County Sheriff’s Office at 814-432-9562.
If I had the time, I'd also include the portion from the "PA Right to Bear Arms"... but I'm off to work now.
What do you all think? Am I crazy or are they violating our rights?
By the way, my best friend's application was returned the very next day as "incomplete". She submitted it half an hour before the office closed, and the very next morning she was required to come in for an interview. She refused because she said it violated her rights, and they refuse to give her a license now. Six other people applied, all male, and were NOT required to give an interview. Explain that to me...
Sorry if this is long, or if it is in the wrong place.
Have a nice day.
Yours is one of the first I've heard with problems of the permitting process, which I have found to work pretty well in the counties I've dealt with (relatives in PA and we all have PA firearms licenses; albeit none in Venango county). Overall for us the PA system has worked exceedingly well and we've found it very user friendly (expeditious, the folks have been courteous to us, and doesn't require classes and training).
I checked out the website itself for the Venango County Sheriff's procedures which seems strange--especially since it's not a "concealment permit" it's a "License to Carry Firearms" (albeit PA is open carry allowed) and none others require the 8.5" x 11" statement thing. I think this might violate PA law--it's supposed to be one question on a standard form, at least from how I read it here from the link (and they are required to use a standard form):
Here is the relevant excerpt (bold and italics mine):
Issuing authorities shall use only the application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. One of the following reasons for obtaining a firearm license shall be set forth in the application: self-defense, employment, hunting and fishing, target shooting, gun collecting or another proper reason.
So the law as I've read it--provided the source is still current--is pretty clear to me: they are only supposed to use the standard application form which has the reason in it (as a check in the box kind of a thing).
The "interview" thing also might be a problem -- unless I'm missing something in the statute (which I could be) -- sheriff's aren't authorized to conduct applicant interviews as part of the shall issue process. I guess a friendly going over the form and asking a few questions as part of the form for clarification are ok, but I didn't see a requirement, or more appropriately an AUTHORIZATION for any county by PA which is SHALL ISSUE and uniform to conduct formal interviews of ANY applicant as part of the application process (this doesn't include calling the references you provide to verify your character, etc,). The reason why this could be a problem (and might be illegal depending on how you interpret the investigation section of the statute) is an interview might be used by a sheriff to turn his county into a "may issue" situation which is completely against the intent and wording of the uniform statewide statute. There's no standardization for this and from how I read the state statute a deputy sheriff calling someone in for an interview to get a permit looks like it would be illegal to me.
You might want to print out a copy of the statute when you fill your form out and return it, and bring it to their attention. Or you could do so and submit the 8.5" by 11" sheet with handwritten words "I want the License to Carry Firearms (which PA state law REQUIRES the Venango County Sheriff SHALL ISSUE for any qualified applicant within 45 days) primarily for Self-Defense."--or any other similar words-- and sign and date it (making a copy for yourself or having them do it). I think if you don't comply with their procedures it might delay your license, legal or not, and it probably isn't alot of work to fill out the sheet, get your license, and concurrently inform everyone about issues with the legality of the extra paperwork--there likely is a procedure in the statutes for redress of issues and you certainly should bring it up to your state congressman and anyone else. One would like to think they've "thought of this"; however, until very recently PA airport had a "no firearms" in the non-sterile areas which was wholly illegal--it court action to fix the ordinance.
Every form we've filled out has the same section for the "reason" for which I've always checked "self defense" and left it at that.
The picture is OPTIONAL
__________________
God gives us free will; the statist tries to take it away
This guy gives GREAT customer service--mine took 3 weeks mailbox to mailbox (don't know if yours might take a little longer--mine was with existing CHL).
Kudos to the Centre County Sheriff--at least from my personal experience--they do a GREAT job there.
__________________
God gives us free will; the statist tries to take it away
Hey. Sorry, just finally got to reading the posts. I didn't have trouble getting mine, my friend did.
I previously read the 'rules' that you just posted. I looked that stuff up and figured out that pretty much our sheriff is a you-know-what who thinks and knows he'll get away with whatever he wants because he knows people here cant afford to fight back.
Mine took less than 10 minutes to obtain, they made a laminated card right then, on the spot.
I just wondered what everyone else had to go thru. We actually had one of our state reps talk to a lawyer, who said it wasn't legal for the sheriff to do that, but he also said that no one could probably afford what it would take to do anything about it.
Ugh. Must be cool to be in a position of power and make up your own rules, huh!
__________________
"Words are like bullets, there's no taking them back once you've fired your mouth off".
The Heriff is making up his own rules...
and our Men and Women In Uniform. RIP Arkansas Hunter e 
