Gun Failures in Cold Weather

ShortRound · 01-20-2003, 10:59 AM

This past muzzleloading season here in Maine there was a case of catastrophic failure of a rifle. Luckily, the hunter came away with just a hole in his cheek where the breech plug hit. The details havn't been made public as yet, but the question that I had was that since the failure occured at temperatures near 0 deg. F., could the failure have been caused by cold induced ductile to brittle failure similar to what caused the hull plates of the Titanic to shatter rather than shear.
Since most folks test fire their guns in warm weather, could a load that might be safe in balmy Fall weather be deadly when the temperature dropped below freezing?

Doglips · 01-20-2003, 12:24 PM

Could also have been a doubled charge...as a still new muzzle loader I have been constantly warned about taking my time...and not double or forgoeting to place a charge of powder in the gun....also some people have been known to add a "little extra" powder....you know 175 grains as opposed to 150....to get a little extra power.... this MAY have happened...or a combanation of factors... In the milatarty I fired an M16 in zub-zero weather with no problems (other than being a Floridaian in zub zero weather)....cant see the metal getting that brittel.....got to rember to humans 20-30 degrees is a big deal...not realy much to steel.

Klaus · 01-20-2003, 12:27 PM

The Titanic and the liberty ships were made of very bad steel with lots of sulfur. No one uses such steel any more for anything. I think it was probably a double charge.

PAPA G · 01-20-2003, 01:20 PM

is that the lubed bullet may have frozen to the bore, increasing pressure.

ShortRound · 01-20-2003, 02:36 PM

It's true that modern muzzleloaders use good ordnance grade steel, but there are a lot of old guns still being used. The phenomenon of steel getting brittle in cold weather wasn't well understood until the early 60's when some scientists published a report on hull failures in Liberty Ships, so it might be prudent to not contemplate that extra dash of powder.
If I remember correctly, it was 35 deg. F. where the Liberty Ship Hulls started to fail. It had to do with a crystalline transition in carbon steel.

NRAJOE · 01-20-2003, 02:52 PM

On 16 January 1943, Schenectady, a Liberty tanker, split in two while moored in calm water at the outfitting dock at Swan Island, Oregon. A US Coast Guard report described the incident:

Without warning and with a report which was heard for at least a mile, the deck and sides of the vessel fractured just aft of the bridge superstructure. The fracture extended almost instantaneously to the turn of the bilge port and starboard. The deck side shell, longitudinal bulkhead and bottom girders fractured. Only the bottom plating held. The vessel jack-knifed and the center portion rose so that no water entered. The bow and stern settled into the silt of the river bottom.

The ship was twenty-four hours old.

NRAJOE · 01-20-2003, 02:56 PM

NIL DUCTILITY TRANSITION" Temperature
The "BIG OOPS" in the TITANIC and Liberty shipbuilding disasters is what was defined by two researchers at the U. S. Naval Research Laboratory, W. S. Pellini and P. P. Puzak, the "Nil Ductility Transition" temperature phenomenon. On March 15, 1963, Pellini and Puzak published their findings after a 15 year study, defining and also devising a method of quantifying the temperature at which steel changes from DUCTILE to BRITTLE fracture modes. Above the Nil Ductility Transition temperature, a certain piece of steel can be loaded to its ultimate tensile strength, stretching 20% to 40% before it breaks. Below the Nil Ductility Transition temperature, when a piece of steel is loaded to only the yield strength (approximately 1/2 of the ultimate strength) the piece of steel will crack in a brittle manner, like glass. Once the crack starts to run (at the speed of sound), it will only stop when it runs out of steel, the load is released or the crack is arrested by running into a piece of ductile acting steel.

In the case of the USS PONAGANSET, the stresses reached the yield strength at a location where a tiny crack existed on the deck of the ship in 35 degree Fahrenheit weather. The NDT of the steel used to build the Ponaganset was determined after the failure to be 50 degrees Fahrenheit. Consequently, the crack propagated in a brittle manner and literally ran around the ship, near instantaneously, and the ship broke in two.

The US War Machine, and not unjustifiably, was priding itself that it could build a shipyard that could deliver mammoth ships at a rate of one every 13 days. Marinship set a record of building one ship, the S.S. HUNTINGTON HILLS, from empty dock to complete ship in just 33 days.

Who would have thought that a 15 degree temperature drop and a stray welder's arc strike could destroy a ship as effectively as a German torpedo? Could a 29,000 ton ship be that fragile? How could the US Government build 5000 ships with such a flaw?

When an average person is subjected to a "Disaster", the memory of the emotion is long, but the memory of details is short. Mention TITANIC and the immediate response is "Sank by Iceberg". This is a normal defense reaction. It is perfectly acceptable to even the simplest mind that a mammoth iceberg could sink an "unsinkable" gigantic steel ship or an errant missile could bring down a 747. But if the answer is as simple as the water was too cold but nobody knew or frayed insulation caused an arc and explosion, how can we trust that all the other engineering masterpieces our lives depend on, everyday, are not as fragile? The planes we fly in, the miles long bridges we drive across, are they also susceptible to catastrophic failure by a simple quirk of Nature the greatest minds of our civilization are not aware?

ShortRound · 01-20-2003, 04:47 PM

Ow!!, 175 grains! Maybe i'm a weenie, but 90 grains is enough abuse for me. I'm half blind and can't hit anything much beyond 50 yds anyway.

Doglips · 01-20-2003, 06:12 PM

MY TC scout is rated to 150...but I realy should check the book...havent shot it in a while and might be off (over chargeing cause by poor memory??)...I rember that with a sabot and max load it the recoil....was plesent only if you like getting spanked...

ShortRound · 01-20-2003, 06:27 PM

I have 2 CVA inline Magnums and they are rated for 150 grains, but here in Maine, unless you're sitting on a Power Line, most shots will be under a 100 yards. There's also the cost. At a 70 grain load it's 100 rounds per pound. At 150 it's less than 50. Plinking can get expensive if you figure in the primer, powder and bullet. They really make you pay for the pleasure of the "good old days"

Klaus · 01-20-2003, 07:30 PM

My .36 revolver likes 20 grains, with a 125 grain bullet.

jerry · 01-21-2003, 12:45 PM

Mabe they accidentally loaded smokeless powder?

Cold can have different efects on metal. There is a process out there where cryogenics is used to somehow change the molecular structure in steel on rifle barrels to make them more accurate. I not speaking as an expert, just remember seeing it at one point & time.

Another thought that comes to mind is mechanical damage duch as breech plug threads corroded or worn beyond limits. Also, the hunter could have gotten mud or snow stuck in the muzzle. (it may have just "blown" in a different place)

Thought about PapaG's theory too. Mabe the lube did freeze? Or, mabe the guy used a "spit patch" which would surely freeze. Not very common to use the 'ole spit patch any more, but mabe he target shot with it and formed a habit that followed him to the field?

ShortRound · 01-21-2003, 06:45 PM

Hi All,
I think that a lot of good points have been made and if you look at disasters it's usually a combination of events occuring in the right order. No telling how many times all of us have missed a disaster by just a hair. In the winter of '69 I was late for a flight by 15 minutes because of the weather. It flew into the side of a mountain while trying to land, so you never know sometimes....

01-20-2003, 10:59 AM	#1
ShortRound Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 11	Gun Failures in Cold Weather This past muzzleloading season here in Maine there was a case of catastrophic failure of a rifle. Luckily, the hunter came away with just a hole in his cheek where the breech plug hit. The details havn't been made public as yet, but the question that I had was that since the failure occured at temperatures near 0 deg. F., could the failure have been caused by cold induced ductile to brittle failure similar to what caused the hull plates of the Titanic to shatter rather than shear. Since most folks test fire their guns in warm weather, could a load that might be safe in balmy Fall weather be deadly when the temperature dropped below freezing?

01-20-2003, 12:27 PM	#3
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,383	The Titanic and the liberty ships were made of very bad steel with lots of sulfur. No one uses such steel any more for anything. I think it was probably a double charge. __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

01-20-2003, 01:20 PM	#4
PAPA G Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somerset, kentucky Posts: 12	ANOTHER POSSIBILITY.............. is that the lubed bullet may have frozen to the bore, increasing pressure.

01-20-2003, 02:52 PM	#6
NRAJOE Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Toledo,OH Posts: 19,043 Images: 3	On 16 January 1943, Schenectady, a Liberty tanker, split in two while moored in calm water at the outfitting dock at Swan Island, Oregon. A US Coast Guard report described the incident: Without warning and with a report which was heard for at least a mile, the deck and sides of the vessel fractured just aft of the bridge superstructure. The fracture extended almost instantaneously to the turn of the bilge port and starboard. The deck side shell, longitudinal bulkhead and bottom girders fractured. Only the bottom plating held. The vessel jack-knifed and the center portion rose so that no water entered. The bow and stern settled into the silt of the river bottom. The ship was twenty-four hours old. __________________ U.S. Army 1976-1979 237th Combat Engineers Heilbronn, Germany

01-20-2003, 02:56 PM	#7
NRAJOE Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Toledo,OH Posts: 19,043 Images: 3	NIL DUCTILITY TRANSITION" Temperature The "BIG OOPS" in the TITANIC and Liberty shipbuilding disasters is what was defined by two researchers at the U. S. Naval Research Laboratory, W. S. Pellini and P. P. Puzak, the "Nil Ductility Transition" temperature phenomenon. On March 15, 1963, Pellini and Puzak published their findings after a 15 year study, defining and also devising a method of quantifying the temperature at which steel changes from DUCTILE to BRITTLE fracture modes. Above the Nil Ductility Transition temperature, a certain piece of steel can be loaded to its ultimate tensile strength, stretching 20% to 40% before it breaks. Below the Nil Ductility Transition temperature, when a piece of steel is loaded to only the yield strength (approximately 1/2 of the ultimate strength) the piece of steel will crack in a brittle manner, like glass. Once the crack starts to run (at the speed of sound), it will only stop when it runs out of steel, the load is released or the crack is arrested by running into a piece of ductile acting steel. In the case of the USS PONAGANSET, the stresses reached the yield strength at a location where a tiny crack existed on the deck of the ship in 35 degree Fahrenheit weather. The NDT of the steel used to build the Ponaganset was determined after the failure to be 50 degrees Fahrenheit. Consequently, the crack propagated in a brittle manner and literally ran around the ship, near instantaneously, and the ship broke in two. The US War Machine, and not unjustifiably, was priding itself that it could build a shipyard that could deliver mammoth ships at a rate of one every 13 days. Marinship set a record of building one ship, the S.S. HUNTINGTON HILLS, from empty dock to complete ship in just 33 days. Who would have thought that a 15 degree temperature drop and a stray welder's arc strike could destroy a ship as effectively as a German torpedo? Could a 29,000 ton ship be that fragile? How could the US Government build 5000 ships with such a flaw? When an average person is subjected to a "Disaster", the memory of the emotion is long, but the memory of details is short. Mention TITANIC and the immediate response is "Sank by Iceberg". This is a normal defense reaction. It is perfectly acceptable to even the simplest mind that a mammoth iceberg could sink an "unsinkable" gigantic steel ship or an errant missile could bring down a 747. But if the answer is as simple as the water was too cold but nobody knew or frayed insulation caused an arc and explosion, how can we trust that all the other engineering masterpieces our lives depend on, everyday, are not as fragile? The planes we fly in, the miles long bridges we drive across, are they also susceptible to catastrophic failure by a simple quirk of Nature the greatest minds of our civilization are not aware? __________________ U.S. Army 1976-1979 237th Combat Engineers Heilbronn, Germany

01-20-2003, 12:24 PM	#2
Doglips Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cocoa Florida Posts: 9,089	Could also have been a doubled charge...as a still new muzzle loader I have been constantly warned about taking my time...and not double or forgoeting to place a charge of powder in the gun....also some people have been known to add a "little extra" powder....you know 175 grains as opposed to 150....to get a little extra power.... this MAY have happened...or a combanation of factors... In the milatarty I fired an M16 in zub-zero weather with no problems (other than being a Floridaian in zub zero weather)....cant see the metal getting that brittel.....got to rember to humans 20-30 degrees is a big deal...not realy much to steel.

01-20-2003, 02:36 PM	#5
ShortRound Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 11	It's true that modern muzzleloaders use good ordnance grade steel, but there are a lot of old guns still being used. The phenomenon of steel getting brittle in cold weather wasn't well understood until the early 60's when some scientists published a report on hull failures in Liberty Ships, so it might be prudent to not contemplate that extra dash of powder. If I remember correctly, it was 35 deg. F. where the Liberty Ship Hulls started to fail. It had to do with a crystalline transition in carbon steel.

01-20-2003, 04:47 PM	#8
ShortRound Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 11	Ow!!, 175 grains! Maybe i'm a weenie, but 90 grains is enough abuse for me. I'm half blind and can't hit anything much beyond 50 yds anyway.

01-20-2003, 06:12 PM	#9
Doglips Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cocoa Florida Posts: 9,089	MY TC scout is rated to 150...but I realy should check the book...havent shot it in a while and might be off (over chargeing cause by poor memory??)...I rember that with a sabot and max load it the recoil....was plesent only if you like getting spanked...

01-20-2003, 06:27 PM	#10
ShortRound Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 11	I have 2 CVA inline Magnums and they are rated for 150 grains, but here in Maine, unless you're sitting on a Power Line, most shots will be under a 100 yards. There's also the cost. At a 70 grain load it's 100 rounds per pound. At 150 it's less than 50. Plinking can get expensive if you figure in the primer, powder and bullet. They really make you pay for the pleasure of the "good old days"

01-20-2003, 07:30 PM	#11
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,383	My .36 revolver likes 20 grains, with a 125 grain bullet. __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

01-21-2003, 12:45 PM	#12
jerry Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 10,871 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 1	Mabe they accidentally loaded smokeless powder? Cold can have different efects on metal. There is a process out there where cryogenics is used to somehow change the molecular structure in steel on rifle barrels to make them more accurate. I not speaking as an expert, just remember seeing it at one point & time. Another thought that comes to mind is mechanical damage duch as breech plug threads corroded or worn beyond limits. Also, the hunter could have gotten mud or snow stuck in the muzzle. (it may have just "blown" in a different place) Thought about PapaG's theory too. Mabe the lube did freeze? Or, mabe the guy used a "spit patch" which would surely freeze. Not very common to use the 'ole spit patch any more, but mabe he target shot with it and formed a habit that followed him to the field? __________________ I'm a down home back woods redneck Last edited by jerry; 01-21-2003 at 12:56 PM.

01-21-2003, 06:45 PM	#13
ShortRound Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 11	Hi All, I think that a lot of good points have been made and if you look at disasters it's usually a combination of events occuring in the right order. No telling how many times all of us have missed a disaster by just a hair. In the winter of '69 I was late for a flight by 15 minutes because of the weather. It flew into the side of a mountain while trying to land, so you never know sometimes....