Living the kilted life...Advocacy for the men's unbifurcated garments

Ninja Piper · 11-18-2009, 01:34 AM

Why should men wear unbifurcated garments?
OK, by now you are probably asking something along the lines of "why". I mean, you probably have not heard any discerning reason as to why guys should care about their clothing freedom. Well, first let me just say that the appropriate question should be "why not?" Women have successfully lobbied for their freedom in clothing and have been enjoying the roots of their success for decades! Personally, I feel that as a man, I should have the right to wear whatever I care to. Men have worn unbifurcated garments for centuries, so why all the sudden is it considered a woman's garment only in Western society? It doesn't seem logical to me. Evolution of men's clothing.
Over the many centuries, men's clothing has had to be adapted to very specific needs. Although nobody is certain why western society has adopted the concept that men shouldn't wear unbifurcated garments, the need for bifurcated garments has been evident. One theory is that warriors needed various forms of bifurcated clothing to accommodate their particular needs such as for riding on horse back. Although Native Americans were able to use simple blankets to protect their legs, the use of the saddle in it's place in other societies apparently created a need for some kind of additional clothing for men's legs. Also, even though unbifurcation allows for unparalleled levels of freedom in movement, there is no denying that additional clothing or leather provide better protection. Many people believe that it was this need which led to men moving into a bifurcated life. The concept of guys needing to be macho undoubtedly contributed to this effect and possibly help contribute to the feminization of the unbifurcated garments.
Who makes the rules?
In this age, from the time we were little, we were brought up to believe that men wore pants. There was no asking why. It was just that way. Have you ever used or heard the phrase, "Who wears the pants in the family"? I bet most people have. It has been a lie fed to us from our birth that wearing pants was a masculine thing. The sad thing is that we never asked the important question "why". So why have we believed this lie for so long? It is amazing how things that you are taught when you are little stay with you for life. Maybe it is the innocence of young age. Who is to say for sure. Breaking out of this learned thought pattern can prove to be harder than it is to learn, however. Children undergo years of therapy to unlearn learned thought patterns just like this. The idea of conformity in society is a heavy issue. These are the same ideas that your parents were force fed to them by their parents when they were young. Most people find embarrassment in things that they do or say when it is outside of what society considers "the norm". So why would people fall into these crazy ideas? Well, along with conformity goes the need for acceptance. When you do something that is looked down upon by society, or friends in general, how do you feel? Probably not very good unless you are used to it. You feel out of place. You feel the unequivocal urge to conform, don't you? Why do we? Human nature is my guess. We are all just worker ants in a large social chain. Asking why we feel a need to conform is like asking why when the lead bird in a flock changes direction, the flock does as well. It is convenient and instinctual. Kids in school just have to have the name brand stuff because it is cool and they'll be accepted as cool. So now why would or should a guy want to wear unbifurcated clothing?
Anatomy and health
Men, in all their masculinity and hardness, have one particular place that is most vulnerable. Their manhood. By that, I mean their genitals. It is the softest area of the body and the most susceptible to damage and discomfort. Where is the thickest fabric, hardware, and stitching located at in a bifurcated garment? That's right. In the crotch. Right where it can hurt and restrict the most. Another reason bifurcated garments are unsatisfactory is because they retain moisture. The more you sweat, the more uncomfortable you feel. Unbifurcated garments such as a kilt allow moisture to evaporate more readily and lets the skin breath. Which would you rather wear in 90+ degree heat and high humidity? There is a very good reason why countries in hot climates have historically expected men to wear unbifurcated garments. They're comfortable! In modern day society, there are fewer and fewer legitimate reasons why a man can't wear unbifurcated garments. For the most part, there is no need for us to be the warriors. Also some people have associated wearing skirt like garments to promoting good health. Although I propose that it certainly adds to the general feeling of good health, I feel that anybody would be hard pressed to prove that there were some health benefits to wearing unbifurcated garments, but then it certainly wouldn't hurt either. If a man feels that he can benefit from better health by wearing a men's skirt because he has prostate cancer, then why not? What does he have to lose really except his life, right?
Movement
Another good reason for guys to wear unbifurcated clothing is that they don't bind and restrict in other ways. Kilts and other unbifurcated garments make sense for men. There is no restriction. The allowance of movement is much greater in unbifurcated clothing. This amount of freedom in movement is something that men have rarely been able to enjoy in every day clothing. Typically, when a guy tries unbifurcated clothing for the first time, they are amazed at how free they feel. It is a freedom and comfort that men in Western society are not used to. Usually, this is often the deciding factor for a guy to decide to up and change his entire wardrobe like Hamish for instance. There are plenty of guys who have made life changing decisions to not allow themselves to be "imprisoned" in bifurcated clothing any longer, or at least as little as possible. It is not an easy thing to do certainly. There is a stigma attached to guys who wear unbifurcated garments in many "civilized" cultures. Often times we have to deal with other people who are close minded and won't bother to see past the fact that a guy is wearing a "skirt" which to many is something that is considered "wrong" or "feminine" even though they probably can't tell you exactly why. They can't be bothered to learn about the rich history and diversity that unbifurcated garments for men have had of the centuries of history. I say..."Down with pants!" Let the women have them. Anatomically speaking, women are more suited to pants than guys are anyhow. Women fought for them, they can keep them. Give me a "Men's Unbifurcated Garment" and I'll be happy!
The Issue of sexuality
Women fought for their equal choice in clothing because it was representative of their inequality of station in society. For true equality, men should be able to wear men's skirts without getting undue flack for it, not because it is a symbol of inequality, but because it is discriminative to not allow them to do so. Why do you suppose the idea of femininity is associated with skirts? My theory is that this is because women were forced to wear skirt like garments for centuries! I think we should be asking ourselves why this is. Let's not kid ourselves here. Women were forced into submission under men, and this also means sexually. Men forced themselves on women for sex. It was easier to push aside a skirt rather than fumble with trousers. A guy can have his way with a woman by just opening the front of his trousers, but it's not quite so easy when a women wears them. Because of this association, skirts have become a symbol of femininity in modern society even though male warriors wore skirted garments for centuries as well, even today! However, as war became more modern, different ways of fighting became necessary. For instance armor became a very important tool for protection on a battlefield. While men were busy binding themselves up for war, they forced women to remain sexually "accessible" by wearing skirts. This may also be why so many sexually insecure straight men fear a guy wearing a skirt. It is powerful imagery that has endured and formed from centuries of discrimination and because of this, a guy is seen as queer by many for wearing a skirt even though just as many straight guys enjoy them just as much! It is a well known fact to guys that wear them that an insecure guy will never allow himself to try such a garment and it is all about fear. Fear of being seen as queer or dominated, like a women has been in the past. Maybe this is a good thing. I certainly wouldn't mind it becoming more popular, but many don't want it to become something "run of the mill" either. Some guys are just attention whores. <grin> The truth is though that it is time that this changes. Guys no longer need to be warriors. They no longer need to prove masculinity. If anything, most gals love a guy who is secure enough to let go and allow himself to be comfortable and open (and yes even accessible).
The breeze between the knees (...or the air up "there")
Up to now you have heard me mention about the "freedom" involved with wearing an unbifurcated garment. There is a great deal of movement that you can achieve with such a garment. Elsewhere you also could hear me mention the phrases "regimental" or "commando" in regards to men's skirted garments as well. What this means is wearing the garments without the support of an undergarment. Some may wonder why guys would chance to wear a garment in such a way that could possibly expose their genitals in such a manner. Well, it's very simple. It's as comfortable as you can get. I don't really have to tell many guys even though they may not have experienced the freedom first hand, but our anatomy doesn't like being shoved, pushed around, or pinched in any way unless you are into that kind of thing, but it really is contradictory to do this to a guy's genitals. We weren't made to be bound up like that. (Have you ever wondered why a bull or a horse bucks in a rodeo?) It's just not natural. Some people would say that there is nothing wrong with wearing an undergarment with a men's skirt and I do agree. At least it is not a ⅛" folded seam and zippers for god's sakes! There is nothing wrong if you do. There is however nothing wrong with not wearing them either and women can't tell me that they have not enjoyed this private little pleasure when they wear skirts. I am sure many do not go bare under there, but I am sure many do! Add to this that the "traditional" way (yet another way to imply lack of undergarments) to wear a kilt is bare bottom and you should come to realize that it's OK. Even today I have heard that kilted regiments under Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth are required to wear their kilts in the traditional way and are actually spot checked to make sure that this is done! So how can it be considered vulgar or even perverse in American society? Yet it still is by some. It's because of the association of skirts to sex and women being sexually dominated by men.

petrol · 11-18-2009, 01:58 AM

I kind of skimmed through the post there, but from the gist of it men should wear kilts?
I wholeheartedly agree. there was one grip i worked with who wore a utilikilt every day. on those hot soCal summer days i was very jealous. i even look scottish enough to get away with it. maybe.

sure be good to stop cases of scissor sack.

LarryO1970 · 11-18-2009, 01:58 AM

... Jeremy, you scare me.

Ninja Piper · 11-18-2009, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrol

I kind of skimmed through the post there, but from the gist of it men should wear kilts?
I wholeheartedly agree. there was one grip i worked with who wore a utilikilt every day. on those hot soCal summer days i was very jealous. i even look scottish enough to get away with it. maybe.

Absolutely petrol! I will be expanding my selection with a Utilikilt soon. I'm thinking of getting the ACU pattern one. If you are looking for a cheap entry into kilts, check out Welcome to Stillwater Kilts

Ninja Piper · 11-18-2009, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

... Jeremy, you scare me.

You're just jealous you don't have the legs to pull off the kilt like I do!

Harumph!

just_a_car · 11-18-2009, 02:12 AM

{Scottish accent} You know why they're called Kilts?... Because the first man who called it a skirt was Kilt!

-JAC... descendant of the Lamont clan of Argyl; 4 generations down from being in Scotland.

Shooter Girl · 11-18-2009, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Piper

You're just jealous you don't have the legs to pull off the kilt like I do!

Harumph!

A man wearing a kilt makes my alabaster skin flush and my knees go weak.

LarryO1970 · 11-18-2009, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Piper

You're just jealous you don't have the legs to pull off the kilt like I do!

Harumph!

... dude, I've got the legs, trust me.

just_a_car · 11-18-2009, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

... dude, I've got the legs, trust me.

I've got the legs... and the kilts.

One Argyl pattern and one in... get this... vinyl.

Ninja Piper · 11-18-2009, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just_a_car

I've got the legs... and the kilts.

One Argyl pattern and one in... get this... vinyl.

I have never seen a vinyl kilt, nor am I sure I want to.... I sport the black watch tartan.

just_a_car · 11-18-2009, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Piper

I have never seen a vinyl kilt, nor am I sure I want to.... I sport the black watch tartan.

It's super-stylin' when I head out to the local members-only Goth-Industrial club.

This PSA is to remind you that gun owners come in all shapes and sizes... now back to your regular programming.

thrillbilly · 11-18-2009, 02:40 PM

LOL I I think the best argument for the kilt would have to be this...we men could finally use thigh holsters to CCW! No longer would it just be those sexy vixens in 007-type movies who could reach under their hem and pull out a sleek little 9mm!

I may have enough Irish blood to wear a kilt...but I would want one in Mossy Oak camo!

White Rook · 11-18-2009, 02:53 PM

A Rose by any other name is still a rose. Same thing with a skirt. I'm not wearing one no matter what it's called....

LarryO1970 · 11-18-2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Rook

A Rose by any other name is still a rose. Same thing with a skirt. I'm not wearing one no matter what it's called....

... that's pretty much my opinion as well.

Ninja Piper · 11-18-2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thrillbilly

I may have enough Irish blood to wear a kilt...but I would want one in Mossy Oak camo!

It's not Mossy Oak, but it's a start! Commando Kilt By Sport Kilt

I'm not Irish, but I drink a lot of whisky.... does that count?

CalifgirlinOk · 11-18-2009, 03:14 PM

I believe if you have the legs to pull it off then go for it.I have seen some old men with skinny bright white legs with knocked knees wearing kilts.

thrillbilly · 11-18-2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalifgirlinOk

I believe if you have the legs to pull it off then go for it.I have seen some old men with skinny bright white legs with knocked knees wearing kilts.

I have zee burly tree trunk legs...but I spent enough time on the bass boat and riverside this year to have them tanned! I think my scars would fit in with the kilt persona though.

larmus · 11-18-2009, 03:21 PM

Kilts ROCK!!!!! i have 2... on was made for my wedding and one i made myself...

this is the celtic games last year...

CalifgirlinOk · 11-18-2009, 03:36 PM

Larmus I can't see your legs in the pic.I'm going to get you

for that..LOL

larmus · 11-18-2009, 03:41 PM

sorry... the person taking the pic liked the mountains instead of my white boy legs... lol!

11-18-2009, 01:34 AM	#1
Ninja Piper Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Watertown, WI Posts: 846	Living the kilted life...Advocacy for the men's unbifurcated garments Why should men wear unbifurcated garments? OK, by now you are probably asking something along the lines of "why". I mean, you probably have not heard any discerning reason as to why guys should care about their clothing freedom. Well, first let me just say that the appropriate question should be "why not?" Women have successfully lobbied for their freedom in clothing and have been enjoying the roots of their success for decades! Personally, I feel that as a man, I should have the right to wear whatever I care to. Men have worn unbifurcated garments for centuries, so why all the sudden is it considered a woman's garment only in Western society? It doesn't seem logical to me. Evolution of men's clothing. Over the many centuries, men's clothing has had to be adapted to very specific needs. Although nobody is certain why western society has adopted the concept that men shouldn't wear unbifurcated garments, the need for bifurcated garments has been evident. One theory is that warriors needed various forms of bifurcated clothing to accommodate their particular needs such as for riding on horse back. Although Native Americans were able to use simple blankets to protect their legs, the use of the saddle in it's place in other societies apparently created a need for some kind of additional clothing for men's legs. Also, even though unbifurcation allows for unparalleled levels of freedom in movement, there is no denying that additional clothing or leather provide better protection. Many people believe that it was this need which led to men moving into a bifurcated life. The concept of guys needing to be macho undoubtedly contributed to this effect and possibly help contribute to the feminization of the unbifurcated garments. Who makes the rules? In this age, from the time we were little, we were brought up to believe that men wore pants. There was no asking why. It was just that way. Have you ever used or heard the phrase, "Who wears the pants in the family"? I bet most people have. It has been a lie fed to us from our birth that wearing pants was a masculine thing. The sad thing is that we never asked the important question "why". So why have we believed this lie for so long? It is amazing how things that you are taught when you are little stay with you for life. Maybe it is the innocence of young age. Who is to say for sure. Breaking out of this learned thought pattern can prove to be harder than it is to learn, however. Children undergo years of therapy to unlearn learned thought patterns just like this. The idea of conformity in society is a heavy issue. These are the same ideas that your parents were force fed to them by their parents when they were young. Most people find embarrassment in things that they do or say when it is outside of what society considers "the norm". So why would people fall into these crazy ideas? Well, along with conformity goes the need for acceptance. When you do something that is looked down upon by society, or friends in general, how do you feel? Probably not very good unless you are used to it. You feel out of place. You feel the unequivocal urge to conform, don't you? Why do we? Human nature is my guess. We are all just worker ants in a large social chain. Asking why we feel a need to conform is like asking why when the lead bird in a flock changes direction, the flock does as well. It is convenient and instinctual. Kids in school just have to have the name brand stuff because it is cool and they'll be accepted as cool. So now why would or should a guy want to wear unbifurcated clothing? Anatomy and health Men, in all their masculinity and hardness, have one particular place that is most vulnerable. Their manhood. By that, I mean their genitals. It is the softest area of the body and the most susceptible to damage and discomfort. Where is the thickest fabric, hardware, and stitching located at in a bifurcated garment? That's right. In the crotch. Right where it can hurt and restrict the most. Another reason bifurcated garments are unsatisfactory is because they retain moisture. The more you sweat, the more uncomfortable you feel. Unbifurcated garments such as a kilt allow moisture to evaporate more readily and lets the skin breath. Which would you rather wear in 90+ degree heat and high humidity? There is a very good reason why countries in hot climates have historically expected men to wear unbifurcated garments. They're comfortable! In modern day society, there are fewer and fewer legitimate reasons why a man can't wear unbifurcated garments. For the most part, there is no need for us to be the warriors. Also some people have associated wearing skirt like garments to promoting good health. Although I propose that it certainly adds to the general feeling of good health, I feel that anybody would be hard pressed to prove that there were some health benefits to wearing unbifurcated garments, but then it certainly wouldn't hurt either. If a man feels that he can benefit from better health by wearing a men's skirt because he has prostate cancer, then why not? What does he have to lose really except his life, right? Movement Another good reason for guys to wear unbifurcated clothing is that they don't bind and restrict in other ways. Kilts and other unbifurcated garments make sense for men. There is no restriction. The allowance of movement is much greater in unbifurcated clothing. This amount of freedom in movement is something that men have rarely been able to enjoy in every day clothing. Typically, when a guy tries unbifurcated clothing for the first time, they are amazed at how free they feel. It is a freedom and comfort that men in Western society are not used to. Usually, this is often the deciding factor for a guy to decide to up and change his entire wardrobe like Hamish for instance. There are plenty of guys who have made life changing decisions to not allow themselves to be "imprisoned" in bifurcated clothing any longer, or at least as little as possible. It is not an easy thing to do certainly. There is a stigma attached to guys who wear unbifurcated garments in many "civilized" cultures. Often times we have to deal with other people who are close minded and won't bother to see past the fact that a guy is wearing a "skirt" which to many is something that is considered "wrong" or "feminine" even though they probably can't tell you exactly why. They can't be bothered to learn about the rich history and diversity that unbifurcated garments for men have had of the centuries of history. I say..."Down with pants!" Let the women have them. Anatomically speaking, women are more suited to pants than guys are anyhow. Women fought for them, they can keep them. Give me a "Men's Unbifurcated Garment" and I'll be happy! The Issue of sexuality Women fought for their equal choice in clothing because it was representative of their inequality of station in society. For true equality, men should be able to wear men's skirts without getting undue flack for it, not because it is a symbol of inequality, but because it is discriminative to not allow them to do so. Why do you suppose the idea of femininity is associated with skirts? My theory is that this is because women were forced to wear skirt like garments for centuries! I think we should be asking ourselves why this is. Let's not kid ourselves here. Women were forced into submission under men, and this also means sexually. Men forced themselves on women for sex. It was easier to push aside a skirt rather than fumble with trousers. A guy can have his way with a woman by just opening the front of his trousers, but it's not quite so easy when a women wears them. Because of this association, skirts have become a symbol of femininity in modern society even though male warriors wore skirted garments for centuries as well, even today! However, as war became more modern, different ways of fighting became necessary. For instance armor became a very important tool for protection on a battlefield. While men were busy binding themselves up for war, they forced women to remain sexually "accessible" by wearing skirts. This may also be why so many sexually insecure straight men fear a guy wearing a skirt. It is powerful imagery that has endured and formed from centuries of discrimination and because of this, a guy is seen as queer by many for wearing a skirt even though just as many straight guys enjoy them just as much! It is a well known fact to guys that wear them that an insecure guy will never allow himself to try such a garment and it is all about fear. Fear of being seen as queer or dominated, like a women has been in the past. Maybe this is a good thing. I certainly wouldn't mind it becoming more popular, but many don't want it to become something "run of the mill" either. Some guys are just attention whores. <grin> The truth is though that it is time that this changes. Guys no longer need to be warriors. They no longer need to prove masculinity. If anything, most gals love a guy who is secure enough to let go and allow himself to be comfortable and open (and yes even accessible). The breeze between the knees (...or the air up "there") Up to now you have heard me mention about the "freedom" involved with wearing an unbifurcated garment. There is a great deal of movement that you can achieve with such a garment. Elsewhere you also could hear me mention the phrases "regimental" or "commando" in regards to men's skirted garments as well. What this means is wearing the garments without the support of an undergarment. Some may wonder why guys would chance to wear a garment in such a way that could possibly expose their genitals in such a manner. Well, it's very simple. It's as comfortable as you can get. I don't really have to tell many guys even though they may not have experienced the freedom first hand, but our anatomy doesn't like being shoved, pushed around, or pinched in any way unless you are into that kind of thing, but it really is contradictory to do this to a guy's genitals. We weren't made to be bound up like that. (Have you ever wondered why a bull or a horse bucks in a rodeo?) It's just not natural. Some people would say that there is nothing wrong with wearing an undergarment with a men's skirt and I do agree. At least it is not a ⅛" folded seam and zippers for god's sakes! There is nothing wrong if you do. There is however nothing wrong with not wearing them either and women can't tell me that they have not enjoyed this private little pleasure when they wear skirts. I am sure many do not go bare under there, but I am sure many do! Add to this that the "traditional" way (yet another way to imply lack of undergarments) to wear a kilt is bare bottom and you should come to realize that it's OK. Even today I have heard that kilted regiments under Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth are required to wear their kilts in the traditional way and are actually spot checked to make sure that this is done! So how can it be considered vulgar or even perverse in American society? Yet it still is by some. It's because of the association of skirts to sex and women being sexually dominated by men. __________________ The "Safety Briefing" should NEVER be confused with the "Safety Dance"

11-18-2009, 01:58 AM	#2
petrol Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Lost Angeles Posts: 825	I kind of skimmed through the post there, but from the gist of it men should wear kilts? I wholeheartedly agree. there was one grip i worked with who wore a utilikilt every day. on those hot soCal summer days i was very jealous. i even look scottish enough to get away with it. maybe. sure be good to stop cases of scissor sack. __________________ If we do not hang together, we shall surely hang separately. Thomas Paine Last edited by petrol; 11-18-2009 at 02:00 AM. Reason: scissors

11-18-2009, 01:58 AM	#3
LarryO1970 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johnson Creek, WI Posts: 5,962 Blog Entries: 2	... Jeremy, you scare me. __________________ You don't scare me! Work on it!

11-18-2009, 02:12 AM	#6
just_a_car Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Edmonds, WA Posts: 4,185	{Scottish accent} You know why they're called Kilts?... Because the first man who called it a skirt was Kilt! -JAC... descendant of the Lamont clan of Argyl; 4 generations down from being in Scotland. __________________ B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09 CETME Owners - Founder AK-47 - Member The Mosin Men - Member KF7GEA

11-18-2009, 02:40 PM	#12
thrillbilly Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ozark Hill Country Posts: 3,182	LOL I I think the best argument for the kilt would have to be this...we men could finally use thigh holsters to CCW! No longer would it just be those sexy vixens in 007-type movies who could reach under their hem and pull out a sleek little 9mm! I may have enough Irish blood to wear a kilt...but I would want one in Mossy Oak camo! __________________ *" I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on."* John Wayne

11-18-2009, 02:53 PM	#13
White Rook Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: South West Ohio Posts: 2,235	A Rose by any other name is still a rose. Same thing with a skirt. I'm not wearing one no matter what it's called.... __________________ USAF SSgt 80-86 IN GOD WE TRUST NRA MEMBER

11-18-2009, 03:14 PM	#16
CalifgirlinOk Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 8,547	I believe if you have the legs to pull it off then go for it.I have seen some old men with skinny bright white legs with knocked knees wearing kilts. __________________ I got into a fist fight with breast cancer and I won.

11-18-2009, 03:21 PM	#18
larmus Domestic Engineer Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: arizona Posts: 3,390	Kilts ROCK!!!!! i have 2... on was made for my wedding and one i made myself... this is the celtic games last year... __________________ Lawrence Home Defense: .45 and a Shovel...

11-18-2009, 03:36 PM	#19
CalifgirlinOk Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 8,547	Larmus I can't see your legs in the pic.I'm going to get you for that..LOL __________________ I got into a fist fight with breast cancer and I won.

11-18-2009, 03:41 PM	#20
larmus Domestic Engineer Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: arizona Posts: 3,390	sorry... the person taking the pic liked the mountains instead of my white boy legs... lol! __________________ Lawrence Home Defense: .45 and a Shovel...