[Bart B.]

Quote:       Originally Posted by wunhunglo

How difficult is it to fire two shots using the same aiming point, which should give you roughly the same POI, and then just adjust your sights accordingly?

It's not difficult at all for folks who know exactly how much change in impact one click on their sights give, can call their shots pretty good on the target then determine how much they have to adjust their sights to strike point of aim. The "call" is where the sights are aligned on the target when the rifle fires, even if it's not dead center on the target, one can still adjust their sights so the next shot hits about were they call it.

For others, it can be difficult. This a shooting skill and rifle+ammo accuracy issue. Which means the wide range of shooting skills and equipment accuracy there is, some folks will do better than others. Such is life.

[samuel]

So,I can aim at the edge of a bullseye,fire a shot,calculate clicks to center on POI and the next shot will be dead center in the bullseye.(don't think I'll try that one.) ,,,sam.

[billy]

i call it chasing the bullet.
i thought thats how everyone did it.

[wunhunglo]

Quote:       Originally Posted by samuel

So,I can aim at the edge of a bullseye,fire a shot,calculate clicks to center on POI and the next shot will be dead center in the bullseye.(don't think I'll try that one.) ,,,sam.

Well that's what I do with a six o'clock hold and post foresight on bullseye targets. Doesn't everybody?

[Bart B.]

In response to:

Quote:      

So,I can aim at the edge of a bullseye,fire a shot,calculate clicks to center on POI and the next shot will be dead center in the bullseye.(don't think I'll try that one.)

wunhunglo replies:

Quote:      

Well that's what I do with a six o'clock hold and post foresight on bullseye targets. Doesn't everybody?

Wunhung, no, they don't. But they would be a better marksman if they could and did.

Since the late 1800's, this is exactly what everybody shooting rifles and pistols in competition with post front sights has done when they learn how to do it. It applies to the early square black bullseyes as well as the round ones. This process has also been taught in the armed forces when teaching folks how to aim correctly on their qualification targets.

It also helps to have the post front sight appear the same width as the bullseye so calling and adjusting for windage is easy and just as exact.

Folks who don't or can't understand why and how it works won't believe it's possible. The "secret" is knowing that when the sights are set correctly for elevation, bullet impact will be halfway up the bullseye's round, fuzzy image from its bottom that appears to just touch the post front sight's top edge. Note one should focus sharply on the front sight and let the black bullseye go out of focus and appear fuzzy. And when the front sight's centered horizontally under that fuzzy black ball sittin' on the fence post (phrase commonly used in many circles explaining how a perfect sight picture's achieved), the impact had darned better be centered the same way in the bullseye.

[wunhunglo]

So despite what my wife thinks I can do something right after all??



http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/m14...d-day-out.html

At the 300 metre iron sights deliberate fire section, we were allowed two sighter shots; my first sighter was at 10 o'clock on the edge of the black, after firing my second sighter I had to ask for a check because I could not see another marking disc (Both sighters were marked); then I was told that I had shot through the centre of the 1st marking disc, that's why only one disc showing. I just screwed the sights to the right & down and was on the button every shot after that. Sights were National Match rear peep with a post foresight.

[travisg96]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Bart B.

Travis, your idea's been around for decades. It does work, but it's best when one shoots from field positions (standing, kneeling, sitting or prone) without a rest. The reason's 'casuse shooting from a rest tends to result in a zero that's somewhat off to the side compared to field positions. The more recoil there is, the further off shooting from a rest will cause. If the rifle's fired in free recoil (untouched by people except for pinching the trigger to fire it, such as from a sled or machine rest) its zero using this method won't be the same as fired from a field position nor from a bench atop bags. Even .22 rimfire match/target rifles have enough recoil that when zeroed in machine rests have a different zero by 1 MOA or thereabouts when shot from the shoulder in any position. I've compared zeros from 13 pound .308's and 8 pound .300 Win. Mags from shooting off bags atop a bench to standing and slung up prone. Zero's off the bench are 1 to 2 MOA to the side of the field positions. And both are off the side from a perfect bore sight or shooting from free recoil by a MOA or more. This happens because the rifle moves in recoil while the bullet's going down the barrel. More recoil means more sideways movement. And that recoil force is against the shoulder which is to the side of the body's center of mass. I get about a 1 MOA difference in windage zero between bench and field position with a .308 Win., about 2 MOA with a .300 Win. Mag. Others differences may be some other value, but there is a difference. If you've ever bore sighted a large caliber double rifle, you would remember that both barrels' bore axis cross at about 15 to 20 yards (their muzzle centers are closer together than their breech centers). That crossing point's about an inch or more to the side of where the sights align (to the left of it for right handed shooters, right for left handed shooters). Those 12-pound monsters move that much before their 500+ grain bullets leave the barrel. They also move up in elevation quite a bit while the bullet's going down the barrel requiring a high front sight. Even handgun front sights' tops are higher above bore center than their rear sights to compensate for this same thing. Note that regardless of how this 1- or 2-shot method's done, the accuracy of the result will be effected by how accurate one can call their shot as well as the accuracy of the rifle and ammo. If one can't call shots closer than 1 MOA and they've got a 1 MOA rifle and ammo, they can easily end up with a 1 to 2 MOA error in their results.

It wasn't my idea, I get emails from some gunsmith online and that is the email of the month they sent out.
Travis

[samuel]

Called Kentuckey windage.Been used every since the first flintlock rifled barrels with fixed sights.No one believed it worked then either.(except the ones that did it.) ,,,sam.

[wunhunglo]

Quote:       Originally Posted by samuel

Called Kentuckey windage.Been used every since the first flintlock rifled barrels with fixed sights.No one believed it worked then either.(except the ones that did it.) ,,,sam.

I would tend to disagree a little bit with you there Sam. My understanding of Kentucky (note spelling) windage is that you actually aim off to take account of the windage error and don't actually set your sights on the target at all.

ps can you post pictures of your original flintlocks, some of the younger guys here might be interested in seeing what you used in your youth. I'm sure you still have them!

[Bart B.]

Wunhunglo, your remark:

Quote:      

I would tend to disagree a little bit with you there Sam. My understanding of Kentucky (note spelling) windage is that you actually aim off to take account of the windage error and don't actually set your sights on the target at all.

Right you are. Or left, if you aim on the other side of the target. I've been told that to hold off target vertically, it's called Tenessee elevation.

Folks have been aiming their sights at some point on (near?) the desired impact area for years. In all directions, too. First the vertical offset folks.

Benchresters aim at some point in the black, thick lined square a few inches above the middle ring of their target. They sometimes get awards for the best centered group. They often hold close to a corner of the white area inside the black square for better repeatability of putting the scope's reticle at the same point for each shot.

Hunters "zeroing" their game slayers oft times adjust their sights such that the impact at 100 yards is an inch or more high. This lets them be close enough for "minute of deer" accuracy for a couple hundred yards or so.

Now for the horizontal offset folks. Moving target competition (originally called running boar until the animal rights groups got the International Shooting Union to change the name) shooters use telescopic sights with two or three vertical reticles with an aiming dot on each one. The use the one on the left for left moving targets and the one on the right for right moving targets. Those with three vertical reticles such as the one shown below could be zeroed fairly close on still targets using the middle one's dot. Holding center on the target with each appropriate reticule/dot automatically corrects for the constant speed target moving at right angles at 50 meters with just the right amount of lead angle. With two windage and elevation knobs, one can get perfect zeros for targets in both directions. By using the left reticle for left moving targets, one can see the .22 bullet strike the target (dead center, hopefully, at or near where the center dot is) as they follow through at the same rate; important 'cause the target goes behind a wall a second or two after the shot's fired.

Here's a link to the patent on one of these scopes:

Patent US4618221

Below are thumbnails of the recticles, adjustment mechanics as well as the scope itself.

[samuel]

To answer both of you inteligent target shooters(I mean that as a compliment as I admire you both for your accomplishments in the competitive field of firearms),no I can't post pictures of anything.I am barely smart enough to get on this forum and don't understand or have the ability to use 1/10th of what is available.I also type with one finger.I also mis-spell a lot of words but that is because I aint too smart.What you say about all of this sighting in with two shots may well work for you but for me,if I have a target set at 100yds and aim at the left center edge of a 3"bull and the bullet hits 5" right and 2" low,if I aim at the left center again,hold the rifle steady and don't move it and move the sights to the bullet impact point and then aim at the left center of the bullseye that is exactly where the bullet is going to hit.Not dead center in the bull,left center on the bull.If I aim dead center on the bull after adjusting the sights instead of left center the bullet is going to hit whatever distance it is from center of bull to left center of bull,the bullet will hit that distance to the right,or right edge and center.As to Kentucky windage,if I shoot at a target and the bullet hits low and right,if I aim high and left the same distance I missed to the right,the bullet will hit the target.This is called Kentukey windage,not to be confused with "LEAD" on a moving target.I suppose there is a calibration to be exact when taking a lead on a moving target.I sure as hell don't know it.From many years of handling firearms,rifle handgun,and shotgun and developing a "feel" for where the projectile will be when it gets to the target,if I hold a "lead"and carry through,I hit the target most of the time.This has nothing to do with sighting in with two (really one) shots.Myself and others including Hathcock have been zero,ing rifles at 100/200yds for years and making very accurate shots at ranges way out there with the "holdoff"method which I can't explain except to say we "have a feel"for it.If you ever heard of Billy Dixon hitting an indian at about 3/4ths of a mile with open sights (probably receiver) with a .50 Sharps,that is one of many examples.Luck,yes,but there has to be some skill.None of this has much to do with a 1or2shot sightin.I agree if you know your sight adjustments are a certain distance and know exactly the distance-,s of POI you can just click it in.But being a little slow mentally,I use the other system.And WHL,you aint no spring chicken no mo'.Your day is coming. ,,,sam.

[wunhunglo]

SAM.........LOL Waiting!