My study of 9x18 FMJ vs JHP leaves me with ONLY using FMJ for the following reasons:
Overpenetration is often emphasized by those that prefer shallow-penetrating "rapid energy transfer" bullets. Tests have shown that human skin, on the entry side, can resist penetration as much as 2" (5 cm) of muscle, and skin on the exit side can be the equivalent of up to 4 in (10 cm)[citation needed]. A bullet would need to penetrate greater than approximately 15 inches (38 cm) of tissue simulant to have a chance to completely perforate a 9" (23 cm) thick torso, and would need to penetrate more than 17 inches (43 cm) to actually pose a serious threat to people downrange.
Even if the bullet does completely penetrate a person, it will have a very reduced velocity and probably will no longer be ballistically stable. Missing the intended target altogether, hence leaving a full velocity bullet to harm whatever is in its path, is a much greater threat.
A hit on a less dense peripheral body area, such as a limb, does present a more serious risk of overpenetration however. Penetration of walls and other cover is also a consideration for police and urban use.
According to NYPD SOP-9 (Standard Operating Procedure #9) data, in the year 2000, only 9% of shots fired by officers engaged in gunfights actually hit perpetrators at which they were fired. In the same year, there were a total of 129 "shooting incidents" (including non-gunfights, such as officers firing at aggressive dogs, unarmed or fleeing perpetrators, etc.), 471 total shots fired by officers, 367 shots fired at perpetrators, and 58 total hits on perpetrators by police. So, when non-gunfight shooting data is added, the rate at which police hit what they aim at in real life situations is typically only 15.8%. By either measure, the vast majority of bullets were not stopped by hitting perpetrators, but ultimately encountered some other object. The propensity of these "stray" bullets to pass through windows, walls, car doors, etc. and possibly injure bystanders is a concern, and falls into the overall risk/benefit calculation when considering how much penetration is enough.
and
Humans are in roughly the same class as deer sized game, and in most places, the minimum cartridge power required to hunt deer is more than twice that of the average police sidearm. Handguns are also very inaccurate in the hands of inexperienced shooters, and the average defensive shooter is under a great deal of stress, which further degrades accuracy. These factors combine to require extremely effective terminal ballistics to provide swift incapacitation of the target under far less than ideal circumstances.
Humans walk upright and present relatively unprotected vital organ targets from some angles, and have substantially thinner skin, so the bare minimum penetration is lower than for deer. Cross-torso shots and shots which must first penetrate an arm are relatively common in defensive shooting scenarios, however.
Bullets for use on humans are usually designed to comply with the FBI's penetration requirement of 12 to 18 inches (30 to 46 cm), which is based on the IWBA's requirement of 12.5 to 14 inches (32 to 36 cm). This is to ensure that the bullet can reach a vital blood-bearing organ or central nervous system structure from most angles. Frangible rounds, while they are sold for defensive purposes, are not well suited for the role, as they generally penetrate less than 10 inches (25 cm), and are therefore prone to failure when they must pass through nonvital tissues, such as a hand or arm.
Hollowpoint bullets normally expand most when at their highest velocity; that is, when entering the target. As they expand, they slow. Hollowpoint bullets may not expand when they strike sheet metal, glass, or bulky clothing before the target. These preliminary obstacles can either fill the hollowpoint cavity or deform the lips of the cavity. Either of these effects can prevent the high internal hydraulic pressure necessary to make the hollowpoint round expand.
Let's not froget about the premium for JHP ammo, not that that has anything to do with my choosing FMJ over JHP.
Here's another link that seems to conclude the same:
I shoot both in my CZ 82 though I'm going to shoot more FMJ to plink due to there cheaper to buy than hollow points, thats a no brainer.
When I carry my 9X18 it is loaded with Hornady Custom hollow points.
It's the only hollow point I know about, is there another brand ? I might add to the Hornady Custom is the most acurate cartridge in my pistol.
You can get 94 grain JHP made by Barnaul from Russia.
From my tests, they penetrate 8ish inches, meh. Kinda ok. But have yet to fail to expand aswell.
FWIW I have seen two people shot with 9x18mm. Both times it was two shots and both times both rounds exited. They were found on the floor after bouncing off the wall behind the people. From the looks of the marks in the wall, they did not have much energy left over.
I carry Barnaul 94 grain ball in my CZ82 when I carry it.
Silver Bear. They make hollowpoints for the Mak. I use them in the PA-63. I use them for CCW. The box of truth tests are ok if you are attacked by some water jugs. NY PD for the longest time did not use hollowpoints for the .38's and the Glocks that they were using. This is why over penetration was happening with them. They have big pockets of cash to pay out for hitting bystanders, I don't. I would rather have shallow penetration with hollowpoints than hitting bystanders with my bullets after they went through someone else, but that is just me. The 9x18 is not the perfect round but it will do the job. Proper shot placement is the key, but under that type of stress, who can consistently do that? Not very many of us. Train with what you use and do your best. I have asked Hornady a couple of times to make the Critical Defense ammo in 9x18. After the second e-mail, they said they would in the spring. I hope they do. Send them an e-mail and keep the ball rolling. Get some boxes of wet newspaper and do some tests yourself. Yes, I don't think anyone will be attacked by a box of wet newspaper, but it is a different media type and you never can trust a box of wet newspapers anyway. Make it the NY Times, you will feel better about it. Try both rounds and see how they do. Put some heavy cloth or a coat in front of the box. The hollowpoint will not do as well as the ball ammo, but I don't want the risk of overpenetration. Decide which is more important for you and go down that path. I prefer hollow points.
I shoot 9x18 hollow point ammo because 9x18 is a larger diameter than a 9mm luger and 380, and the hollow point makes it an even larger diameter. The larger the bullet diameter, the more potential damage and blood loss that it can create. 9mm makarov is my starting point for hollow points. In my 32acp, I use FMJ. I sold and won't own a 380 any longer because it costs too much for the ammo and difficult to get. Plus, the makarov is a better all around caliber. Is it a problem if I shoot FMJ in the makarov? No, not at all. But I'm going for maximum damage. Therefor, I want a hollow point which will expand and become an even greater diameter. Hollow point is the way to go with 9mm makarov and larger calibers.
Tell yall what...I took a 4'X6' rubber backed rug with 100 % nylon on the side you walk on.
I folded the rug or mat up into I guess 14" square. I put a piece of 3/4" plywood in front of it.
I loaded some Flocchi 95gr. FMJ 9X18 into my CZ 82 magazine.
Before I fired off a round I thought Humm It's summer time and the ground is hard I better find something as a back up.
I have a small utility yard trailor, so I grabbed it and put behind this set up. I say the floor of the traylor is not quiet 1/8 "thick.
I emptied the pistol in to the plywood and mat...Now yall got to remember the bullets had to plow there way through several layers of twisted looped nylon fibers after going through the 3/4" plywood and the rubber backing of the mat.
Every bullet went through it easily and hit the trailor, but only lightly dimpled it.
I found most of the bullets on the ground and though 1 is mildly distorted they all look like they could be reloaded...Honest !
Thats some kind of penetration. I wished I'd thought to try the Hornady Custom hollow points on this test but I did'nt but will later.
I wore my pistol on a Hog hunt later with these 95 gr. FMJ cartridges in case I had to drop my rifle from haveing to climb a tree.
At close range I have know dought they would knock a hog on his buttox if shot in neck,ear area and between the eyes.
So you figure, It will charge through a heavy poly filled coat and a body with out a problem I suspect.
You gotta love the 9X18...A.H
EDIT::: The polimer filled hollow points that Hornady is comeing out with for 380, 9mm and I hope 9X18 will be some of the best defence ammo to be had.
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Last edited by ArkansasHunter; 12-29-2009 at 03:09 PM.
I think one thing to consider is what the perpetrator might be wearing during a given time of year. Leather jackets and wool overcoats will be penetrated by HP ammo, but when the HP cavity is plugged with those materials, the bullet won't expand, or at least not well. Personally, I will still tend to err on the side of a fully jacketed HP for liability purposes, unless I feel the pistol won't feed well with anything less than FMJ. Generally though, any gun that has problems feeding HPs is not the gun I would carry by choice.
For what it is worth, I load my carry Colt Officer's ACP and Springfield Armory 1911A1 with Remington .45ACP+P JHPs. For practice on the range, I just use mil-spec .45ACP FMJ.
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Last edited by SightNSqueeze; 12-29-2009 at 03:46 PM.
What's the difference between a plugged up hollow point and FMJ? Seems to me that if a HP expands its a good thing (larger wound channel). And if it doesn't it's no worse than a FMJ and should penetrate every bit as much.
Some guns need Jacketed Hollow Points for proper feeding.
Pa-63's, at least mine, doesn't like hollow points. Won't feed properly. Never tried a JHP though.
I dont know that anywhere gives a minimum cartridge POWER for hunting deer, I could be wrong though, i do know here in Kansas it's not the cartridge power it's the bullets DIAMETER that has a minimum, you can't legally hunt deer in Kansas with any bullet with less than .23", and if your handgun hunting you have to adhere to the .23" rule in addition be using a cartridge not less than 1.280" in length, No where does it say anything about the powder charge, or POWER. Not to mention the fact that HP bullets typically expand better then FMJ, bigger wound cavity=more damage, greater damage=more trauma, greater trauma = DRT (Dead Right There).
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Some guns need Jacketed Hollow Points for proper feeding.
Pa-63's, at least mine, doesn't like hollow points. Won't feed properly. Never tried a JHP though.
Some guns need Jacketed Hollow Points for proper feeding.
Pa-63's, at least mine, doesn't like hollow points. Won't feed properly. Never tried a JHP though.
You haven't used the right kind of JHP in your 63, Use Silver Bear JHP and they will feed perfectly. They are more rounded in front like a FMJ.
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If you want the best of both worlds, use Corbon PowRball. It's a hollow point with a soft round plug in the middle. Feeds like a fmj, expands like a hollow point. Order them directly on the corbon/glaser site. For plinking, stick with the FMJ, but you will be impressed with the powerball.
