[Oxford]

Hank: Don't recall that we've ever had direct discussions on G&G but I've read lots of your posts in the past. Seems like you had disappeared for quite a while then suddenly you've reappeared. Guess you were like a lot of us in that we've got plenty of other things to do besides poking computer keys all day.

Regardless, I'm here to support Oneastrix and to stand with him any time he should need help. Of course, he's not hollering for help because he's a big enough man (in character) to cover his own battles. During the past year I've read plenty of his posts and have found him to be a true leader who represents LEO's at their very best. Don't know where we'd find anyone who would handle himself better under fire. Certainly, if I was in need of LEO services I'd pray to God that someone like Oneastrix would respond.

Don't quite understand what's caused the above thread to take the ugly twist it's taken but I think it's time to take a breather, have a few beers together, shake hands, and change subjects.

Actually, I've enjoyed your previous posts and I was convinced that you, too, are one of the "anchors" on G&G in the field of guns, etc. I hope you won't misunderstand what I've written above.

If you don't mind answering...what is your field of occupation? Mine is posted but it sort of helps to understand someone if we know their background a little.

Oxford:nod:

[Hank Springer]

Yes, I have an LEO background. It's flawless and honorable. I see the liberal media successfully influence the minds of the masses against those who serve in law enforcement and even see those of the profession, who are more easily programed, move to the left as the result of their effort.
It makes me sick .
All I can offer in the way of advice is to give your brothers the benefit of the doubt until you have a full understanding of the issue presented to you by the liberal anti-cop left.
I'll leave it at that.
You boys make your own judgement of yourselves, but use the same standard you use on your brothers when they are attacked by the media.
This is all I'll say on the subject.

[wes]

What makes me sick is the "Them and Us" attitude displayed by some LEO's. 1* at least has his eyes open without wearing blinders,and that's what the American public needs,not a "law enFORCEment can do no wrong" outlook. I'm done now.

[Lord Shrike]

I agree with Wes the one thing that bothers me about alot of police is that very attitude (alot not all or even most but a significant number) It creates a seperate class of citizen mentallity that is very dangerous and something the founding fathers never intended. Again I think the main problem is some of the intrusive laws we have now that frankly trample on personal freedom and property rights. No knock drug raids are a recipe for disaster and lead to a growing number of our citizens as seeing LEO's as occuping soilders in there neighborhoods. Granted the overexageration of every mistep the police make by the liberal media doesn't help matters either. Police than often compound the problem by closing ranks whenever there is a questionable incident. This only fuels the fire of mistrust in the publics mind. I find #1 attitude refreshing and frankly I wish more cops out there had his attitude.

[Oxford]

Someone tell me I'm wrong in what I think I just read in Hank Springer's post. I definitely hope I'm wrong but the message was sort of vague, probably intentionally, so here's what I think it meant. (And I'll apologize to Hank if I'm wrong.)

I got the impression that he's saying that the media left has influenced Oneastrix to the point that he's moved left as well as some other LEO's who are "more easily programmed." I sure as hell hope that wasn't what was meant.

Certainly I would strongly disagree but I'll wait hopefully for other interpretations before I comment further.

Please respond.

Ox

[oneastrix]

I took it that way as well OX. But I know my convictions. You fellers know dang well that I have defended LOE's left and right on this forum; and got "female dog slapped" around by members for it. But I held my convictions.

On this one though, it's a bad shooting. I'll stick to that. I respect Hank, and have for quite a while now. I will continue to enjoy his input as he is grand in articulation.

What strikes me as odd is the fact that IF A COP SUPPORTS A COP AGAINST THE PUBLIC OPINION, then he's an SOB. But here, a COP DISAGREES WITH SOMETHING THAT KILLED A FOURTEEN YEAR OLD INNOCENT GIRL.........and one dude is running me through the ringer.

I'm still wondering how much experience I need to call myself a fine police officer..........

Touchet I say!

[copinblue]

I know I haven't posted much on this site, however, I visit quite often, read, and have learned alot of useful information from doing so. As for the situation in San Antonio with the DEA agents....I have seen where it has struck up somewhat of an interesting discussion among some of the thread posters I have come to admire, not only intellectually, but politically as well.
With that being said, I felt that I wanted to post some thoughts of my own being a LEO in the midwest. First off, I think we all need to sit back and take in the totality of the circumstances here....from what little we know of them. I have never been to the 800 block of San Joaquin in San Antonio, TX. I doubt, other than 1*, anyone else on here has either. The time of the incident in question was 2330. If the DEA is involved, one can only conclude that this was a serious federal drug suspect they were chasing....probably not a nickel and dime bag dealer. We don't have any clue what kind of criminal history, if any, this person had they were looking for. The Agents may have received intelligence prior to this operation that the man they were looking for was armed and dangerous, has shot at cops before, was keeping company with a young female gang member, etc....who knows...we, as monday morning quarterbacks reading press releases, certainly don't. The fact that the girl was driving at the age of 14 is totally irrelevant in my opinion. I wouldn't care if someone was 10, or 70...if a car is being driven in a manner I feel is intended to do serious bodily injury to myself, others, or even death as a result, I hope my hands are steady. With all that being said, after ONLY reading the press release and the information I have read on this thread, this wasn't a good situation. The press release said, "were trying to apprehend a suspect MATCHING the description of the man they were LOOKING for". Now, was there a warrant for him or were they just wanting to question him about federal drug activity? Unless they were in a corridor of a building, and there was a car being driven at them, I would think there would have been opportunity to get out of the way first. But there again, NONE of us were there. Based on what I have read (I keep repeating this because of its utmost importance), I just can't justify a shooting at someone that only matches a desription and IF there was opportunity to get out of the way. If there wasn't a warrant, and they had been observing this vehicle first, I would think they could have written down a plate number, avoided the whole shooting, and came back another time. It did say she backed up...was she backing up at another attempt to take the Agents out? Adrenaline does strange things to different people....it's very unpredictable. This whole episode probably took less than 10 seconds.

As for the investigation part of the argument I earlier read, the article quotes, "Police are conducting an investigation with the help of the DEA". What kind of help? This could simply mean the DEA is providing with all of the intelligence the Agents were privy to before the op., the names of all involved, etc. Let's not jump to conclusions on here about the objectivity of the Police entities involved in this investigation before it even gets rolling.

I hated to see the back biting in the threads attacking some of the members on here. The comment I read left by Hank about 1* not being an experienced enough COP to cover his "6" was ludicrous. It is easliy apparent through reading 1*'s posts on here, he is a highly intelligent person, and more than likely, a **** competent COP. From what I read, and from ONLY what I read, this wasn't a good deal for the FEDS. It was an unfortunate incident that reads out like it could, and should have, been avoided. Let's just hope that a good investigation will bring out the truth and provide justice.

[Hank Springer]

I know I said I wouldn't comment further on this subject, but it's obvious that some here have a problem understanding.
As I have said, in previous posts, though maybe not clearly enough, We have not been given nearly enough information to make a determine of who is at fault.
Some here have reached a decision that the LEO personel are wrong and they made that determination based solely on the media story.
I am more then a little disappointed to see a police officer make such a determination after hearing one side of a story. I learned better than that after a week on the street.
I apologize for all the feelings I've hurt, but justice demands that we look further before pronouncing guilt.

I guess I'm that S.O.B. since I'll take the officer's side, or anyone else's, in opposition to public opinion until such time as I'm sure the public opinion is right. Right and wrong isn't determined by numbers.

[Oxford]

Hank:

Thanks for commenting one more time on this subject, Hank.

I would agree totally with your last post except for the first paragraph which stated, "some here have a problem understanding." Except for that hint of superiority, the rest I thought was written by a very exprienced and wise person.

Earlier, on another thread, I spoke of finding the "truth" in a situation and was criticized by someone because they said it depends upon who determines the truth. Well, the truth in this situation, I think, is still an ongoing situation as even more facts are uncovered and digested. Hopefully, and I'm sure you believe this, too, that this case can be resolved by facts rather than by opinions stated in the media.

And lastly, I would hope the LEO's on this forum would support each other, and especially when they need someone to cover their backs.

Oxford:nod:

[Jesse]

LEO's have a very tough job. It is a difficult position to be in when you are making an arrest and the person will not show you their hands proving they are unarmed. I would consider the use of a vehicle in that manner to justify the use of deadly force by the agent IF he feared for his life. For every single incident such as this, there are probably several where the LEO ends up wounded or killed by the suspect. I am not saying that this was right by no means because we do not know all the facts, but the job is a difficult one which joins procedure (legal) with self- preservation.

[copinblue]

I understood most of what everyone wrote and enjoyed looking at all viewpoints. The hardest comment I had understanding was how you could judge someone's combat skills by reading opinoins on a computer screen. I guess some are just so intelligent and street smart, that it makes the rest of us, "boys" inferior. As I stated, without taking EITHER side since none of us were there, take the totality of circumstanes into consideration.
I am sure the Agents will receive a thorough, objective investigation.

[Oxford]

copinblue: I like the way you think and express yourself. Hope to read more of your comments on G&G threads.

Ox:nod:

[dhermesc]

Read the details of this shooting.

First the girl's dad was in police custody on the Friday before the shooting, then released on bail. LEO received a tip that he was thinking about fleeing the country and decided to pull him back in. At some point on Sunday the suspect has notified by relatives that police where looking for him and met with his lawyer on Monday about turning himself in. The lawyer then contacted the police to try and negotiate a deal.

As for the actual shooting, the girl's car was first shot at while in reverse, backing away from police (moving from a parking space). It is believed the car was going forward when the fatal shot was fired. If she was actually trying to run an officer down that can justify the shot that killed her but no one has yet to explain the shots fired into her car while in reverse.

[oneastrix]

My original thoughts on this thread were along the lines of dhermesecs first post.

Dark late night. Horrible side of town. Two unidentified men pull up on this girl and draw down on her. They are not identified as Agents, their vehicle is unmarked, etc. Hell yes she probably jammed the gas down.....I venture to say that I would have done the same thing.

The use of force is justified, I agree. But it could have been possibly avoided with the use of a marked unit to actually initiate the stop. Maybe there was not one available though. That I do not know.

I understand that the agents more than likely did not know that it was a young girl driving, but that doesn't matter. If she was trying to run them down intentionally, then the use of force was in check. But the question I was really getting at was "Did she know that they were LEO's?" The thread digressed at one point when insults started flying. I don't wear my emotions on my sleeve though. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and I appreciate the input from everybody just the same. This has made for an interesting thread no doubt.

[tommy]

ya'll lost me back on the twenty something post.lol just a little bit of humor . we could all use a good laugh right now huh...

[copinblue]

dhermesc,

I don't know where you got the details of the arrest and the intelligence information, but I would love to read it. The only thing I had was 1*'s link he posted. Sounds like you have much more information on the details of this incident, and I would love to be better informed. Thanks for posting that. I am still a little confused my the continual phrase, "police were looking for him".
Now, where I work, I am always looking for someone to talk to about a crime...possible witness information, rolling up some snitches, or any other means to help solve a crime. Now, when I want to "talk" with one of them, and they tell me to piss up a rope, I sure the hell can't arrest them without the proper probable cause or an arrest warrant. I guess what I am saying is that the press release should clarify that a little better. If I were one of the Agents involved, and there was a high risk warrant for the suspect, I would defintely want that published.

And to Oxford...thank you for the kind words. I too enjoy your posts and several other members on this site. I have sure learned alot by reading on here. Even though I am not a rookie in policework, I really do act like one sometimes...I am mostly ears and little mouth....my dad told me I'd learn more that way.
I guess that's a benefit of having teachers for parents!

[wes]

Copinblue,you are open-minded,and I appreciate that. Stick around. We can all learn from each other.