all projectiles are blown off course by brush. all projectiles. extensive testing has been done on this. if the brush is very close to the target, it may not matter. but just a few feet of distance between the the brush and the target can cause a miss, or a wounded animal.
High velocity,fast spinning projectiles arent thrown off as bad as slow,heavy ones.Neither should be depended on. ,,,sam.
.Mojo:You can't really compare arrows to bullets.Arrows operate on the princeable of having lots of weight pushing sharp knives that open the wound.Leave a flat point on the arrow and see how well it does. Bullets depend on what would be considered super velocity for arrows.You are absolutely right on shot placement. ,,,sam.
the reason why I brought archery into this thread is for the fact that arrows have alot less KE (kenetic energy) shock vs a firearm, which a firearm mostly relies on this KE shock to damage vitals plus the wound channel it produces.
yet people still say they need a bigger firearm to kill deer cuz they didnt hit the sweet spot (double lungs or heart)
you shoot both lungs w/arrow you'll have basketball size blood spurts both sides every couple yards right up to the dead deer.
the 270 is plenty to kill a deer! learn shot placement & use the correct bullet, no problem.
but IMO a 270 is overkill for average shots being 50 yards/under 100 yards.
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Originally Posted by stinkybriches
all projectiles are blown off course by brush. all projectiles. extensive testing has been done on this. if the brush is very close to the target, it may not matter. but just a few feet of distance between the the brush and the target can cause a miss, or a wounded animal.
the bigger & heavier the mass of the projectile = takes more resistance to throw it off course.
in short it'd take more to push a slug off course vs a rifle bullet & if the rifle bullet is an expanding bullet it can expand on impact & affect flight path from there on.
High velocity,fast spinning projectiles arent thrown off as bad as slow,heavy ones.Neither should be depended on. ,,,sam.
ok take a light weight high speed race car vs a slow moving heavy semi truck w/trailer, tell me which one is gonna give when they meet head on, or hit something ?
more mass/weight =takes more resistance to throw it off course!
with your high velocity bullets can also be too fast to expand at close ranges to do any good.
I have to side with Sam on the lite vs heavy for brush, both are going to be deflected and it is not advisable to shoot through anything, but on the anti side I don't see how a piece of lumber is going to hold a frangible bullet together... that does not make any sense at all!
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The resistance or strength of a harder tha flesh material does not allow the bullet to expand or shed weight.Consequently since it still maintains its kenetic energy,it penetrates deeper in hard material when comparing ft-lbs of resistance with soft material.In other words,if the bullet is not allowed to expand or shed weight it carries energy deeper.4",s of material may not be enough to get into the expanding/shedding/tumbling effect. This doesn't mean a bullet will penetrate deeper in hard resistance than soft resistance.It means it will penetrate deeper for the resistance it encounters.Going through flesh allows the bullet to expand/fragment which lets it shed energy faster causing it to slow faster. These articles explain better than I can. ,,,There are few things in the world of ballistics less understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration ,,,Bullet Penetration in Counter-Strike: Source - Valve Developer Community ,,,Penetrat ,,,sam.
One thought on this that I discovered years ago with blackpowder guns. a bullet design that only makes an entry wound, that expands profusely or comes apart, and does not exit, leaves a blood trail at times that can be very hard to follow. a bullet that can expand and leave an exit wound means a blood trail that is being created by 2 holes pumping blood. believe me, this is so much easier to follow.
__________________ If I need more than 1 shot, I need more practice.
well, sam has it right. slow heavy bullets are more affected by brush. ive seen testing and read testing from numerous sources. all confirm that larger slower bullets are more affected. there is now such thing as a brush busting bullet. always, wait for an opening in the brush. dont just pull the trigger and pray, the game we hunt deserves more respect.
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A buddy of mine down in texas uses an old Lever action .44 rifle to hunt Deer on his property because its all really dence brush and trees. He loves it, it punches a good size hole and works great in the bush, easy to carry and wield.
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One thought on this that I discovered years ago with blackpowder guns. a bullet design that only makes an entry wound, that expands profusely or comes apart, and does not exit, leaves a blood trail at times that can be very hard to follow. a bullet that can expand and leave an exit wound means a blood trail that is being created by 2 holes pumping blood. believe me, this is so much easier to follow.
So far I have not have 1 run more than 35 yards and most drop on the spot...
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338RUM I have shot the 75gr sierra 25-06 bullets into wet phone books and the results were a massive explosion within the first 2" of the media. I didn't get more than 5-6" of penetration total. I know several people who use varmint bullets such as the Vmax and ballistic tips while hunting deer. A few of them swear by them as the only bullet they will ever use. Some have told me that they have had to track the animal and shoot again because of a poor shot.
For me I will stick with a heavier jacketed bullet such as the Pro hunter or Game King and not worry about my bullet exploding on a shoulder if the animal moves ever so slightly.
Two schools of thought on this issue: 1. Perfect bullet performance has all a bullet's energy expended in the animal with the bullet coming to rest just under the offside skin. 2. Other guys want a large exit wound for quick bleed out and/or good blood trail. Both seem pretty effective.
And I don't believe in too much gun for deer. Doesn't bother me to see a guy with a big boomer in the woods if that's the rifle he likes best. Why leave a rifle at home that you love and shoot great just because some guy says it's too much? All my venison except backstrp and tenderloin goes into chili, stew meat, or summer sausage so there's not all that much meat loss.
.444's fine, I like my Win 1886 .45/70, and it lets me hunt pretty much everything with the same rifle (depending on the ground). If you go with the .444 I suggest you try out the leverevolution rounds from Hornady. I've shot 2 elk, and seen two others taken with that round in the .45/70 and performance was great.
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338RUM I have shot the 75gr sierra 25-06 bullets into wet phone books and the results were a massive explosion within the first 2" of the media. I didn't get more than 5-6" of penetration total. I know several people who use varmint bullets such as the Vmax and ballistic tips while hunting deer. A few of them swear by them as the only bullet they will ever use. Some have told me that they have had to track the animal and shoot again because of a poor shot.
For me I will stick with a heavier jacketed bullet such as the Pro hunter or Game King and not worry about my bullet exploding on a shoulder if the animal moves ever so slightly.
I shoot behind the shoulder and into the ribs of the deer, if you can read deer at all you can tell when they are going to move there body so I don't have any problems with that, and a deer's ribcage is about an inch thick so 2 inches in is really good for massive trauma and if we look at the thickness of a deer which (in my area) is about 12 inches wide, 6 inches of penetration reaches one lung and the heart and parts of the other lung, I have shot deer with regular bullets, and can say that my frangible bullets (so far) have ALWAYS lead to less tracking aka they drop where they were shot... but these are my findings and yours could be different and I respect that as long as you respect my side as well.
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Diplomacy is saying "Take my wallet" while reaching for the M&P tucked in your belt.
I just started hunting deer,this last season was my 2nd time out ever,I hunt in central Michigan,and I use a .444 marlin.Last November a doe came through and I took a shot at it's vitals and she dropped instantly,and she was a big one too,but when I walked the 30 yards to her,which was how far I shot from,I reilized that I missed,I actually hit her in the high part of her belly near the backbone,yet she still dropped instantly and was glazed over dead 60-90 seconds after the shot.I don't think it's overkill at all to use a .444,think of my situation,and how much more humane my kill was,because she might have run off and suffered with a .270.Beware though,that .444 gashed my head open on the scope-that 265 grain bullet will do that to you if you aren't careful.
Is this an article on what gun "NOT" to use and where "NOT" to shoot a deer?MHO,you would be much better off with a gun in the .243win,7mmx08 class that has plenty of power to handle deer without trying to drive the scope through your head.probably pre-knowledge of the scope bit made you miss.If you get the shot where it belongs you don't have to worry about most any rifle stopping a deer.Also,I am going to assume you are a real beginner and don't realise that scopes with 4"to5" eye relief can be used to eleminate the scope bonking you.This would allow you to use rifles with even more recoil than a.444.There is nothing wrong with the .444,it's plenty and then some.There is something wrong with getting your head bonked. ,,,sam.
again no reason you need to get a bigger caliber gun to kill deer that are thin skinned, most people talking they need a bigger caliber is cuz of poor shot placement!!!!
