[coggansfield]

12 Mar. 2009
12:50pm

Herb,

The toes are indeed monstrous. The carbine, however, is nice. The butt stamps, in particular, are about the clearest I've ever seen.

This is a fascinating conversion, to go to all the trouble of converting a foreend-pinned mk. II rifle to a foreend-hooked carbine. Notice the brazed on piece at the bottom of the face of the action body to retain the end of the hook. I can't see from the photos, but is the foreend a replacement carbine foreend or is it the original MHR mk. II foreend cut down? If a cut-down rifle foreend, I assume the old hole through the wood for the foreend pin has been plugged; is that right? All told, a topper. This conversion must have some serious history behind it. You really wonder why someone would go to all that trouble.

I meant to comment on your photos from the arms fair a couple of weeks ago, when you first sent them to me. Sorry, got bogged down at work and forgot. You put on a nice display. I particularly like the bayonet case.

Cheers,

Coggo

[herbert rogers]

I agree this is a fascinating conversion. I have searched the three volumes on the Martini by Temple and Skennerton and cannot find reference to this specimen and conversion. This carbine is ex Temple’s collection via Bill from Tamrookum. I’ll ask when I next see Bill, as he is still in contact with Barry and may turn up some more information.

The fore end is a purpose built carbine version with the forend hook and the colour match is perfect.

When the M-H Cavalry Carbine was introduced it was instantly popular and in high demand for cavalry, garrison, mounted infantry and escort duties and as a result Enfield and B.S.A. were hard pressed to satisfy the demand. Hence L.S.A & Co, H.R.B. Co and N.A.A & Co were contracted or subcontracted to meet the demands.

Queensland ordered M-H Cavalry Carbines from N.A. & A Co. during 1878, and I believe Victoria, South Australia and West Australia did likewise.

I must fix the forend where it’s split at the top right rear. I have tried glue to no avail. The wood needs to be degreased for the glue to adhere.

If by chance Forum Members are interested Dave George has just published another book titled “Carvings from the Veldt” part two. Google the title and you will find Dave’s web site for more details. This book shows lots of lovely Martini, Lee, Mauser and other rifles and carbines, plus uniforms, unit badges, bandoliers etc in full color.

Cheers
Herb

[mosineer]

WOW!!! Great info and pics mates. Simply fascinating. Thanks for sharing!!

*****************************************************
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

[mosineer]

A question for Herb, coggans field, Mauser, or any of our Aussie friends here on G&G. Was curious as to the firearm laws in Australia. Do they affect owning, or shooting collectible firearms like the Martini or Enfield? Found quite a bit of info on the net about standard firearm laws ( a bit scary from a Yanks point of view), but did not see anything specifically about collectibles. Thanks...

Hope all is well with everyone!! ............Jim (Mos)

*****************************************************
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

[big boomer]

I want one!I want one! I want one! Wah!!! If I put up a big fuss maybe some one will get me one.

[mosineer]

^Definitely worth a try......


*****************************************************
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

[Keven]

I have a 310 Martini cadet. It was a rifle my siblings and I ran around with some 30 - 40 years ago playing rifle games. It is in original condition in 310. The Ammo is not too hard to find and shoots outstanding. The only thing I had a issue with was finding the sight. Once I got one, I was shooting the rifle within a week.. Man this thing is so freaking accurate!!!

It is a great rifle that when we go shooting at the range people are amazed!

[mosineer]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Keven

I have a 310 Martini cadet. It was a rifle my siblings and I ran around with some 30 - 40 years ago playing rifle games. It is in original condition in 310. The Ammo is not too hard to find and shoots outstanding. The only thing I had a issue with was finding the sight. Once I got one, I was shooting the rifle within a week.. Man this thing is so freaking accurate!!! It is a great rifle that when we go shooting at the range people are amazed!

WoW!! Sounds great Kevin. Love to have another, been looking at a couple on Gun Broker, 'bout the only place to find any. Maybe one day.... Good luck with your Cadet..glad she is sweet...

*****************************************************
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

[Old Hilly]

I spend a lot of time helping a friend in his gun shop and one of the things I have noticed is the variety of obsolete calibres that the Cadets have been converted to. The standard .310 is fairly common but we also see the .22 Hornet and it's variations, the .218 Bee and Mashburn Bee, the .222 Rimmed, the .257 Dean and then the pistol calibres up to .38 cal.
There were a lot of rimfire conversions years ago but I havn't seen one in the last 6 years or so but when one turns up, it's mine! (that will make 5 Martini Cadets in the safe).
Regarding vintage firearms in NSW (don't know about the other Australian States), to hold a firearm on a collectors permit it either needs to be very old (about 100 years, I think) and black powder or, if it's a more modern firearm it has to be of a calibre where there is no amunition available or it has been de-activated. If you have ammo for the gun then it's not really a collector's item and falls into the normal firearms category. If you want to collect ammo then the cartridge case has to be modified so that it cannot be fired, usually by drilling a hole in the base if the case of drilling out the primer pocket.
Dennis.

[255 DEAN]

Hi all, New to G&G forum, lousey typist, still see need to join in. Presently have my Cadet in for rebarrel, octagon, 218 Mashburn Bee I and a buddy both bought ours from Kleins/Chicago in the early 60's, $14.50 each, he got a BSA,I got a Greener. He(deceased) had his rebarreled in Mashburn Bee, beautiful Rosewood stock, scope, nice. I raised four kids and waited untill now. Man!! how prices have gone up. Rosewood blank $250 octagon barrel, God knows how much. I've got powder old enough to vote, $3.00 a lb. Been out of loading/shooting for 20 years. I load 30-06,03a3(2 groove);6.5x55,Nor. Krag, (Kliens $15); 30-40Krag;6mm Rem;(#1 Ruger); 22/250,Ruger 77; 223Savage 340e;25/20 Savage,23B;218 Mashburn Bee, Win43;35-55,94(oct barrel rifle);375 Bigbore Win;45 auto(1911 GI); 357 mag Ruger(2);12 ga,Win 24 double;410 Boito double;Holding out for 25acp , 455 Webley , 8.15x46 Schuetson dies. Think thats about all, started out 1947 with 30-40 Krag sporter W/115 gr Kirksite bullets on Jackrabbits,Dynomite!!!So much for the BS, 2:30am time for bed, 255DEAN

[one in the pipe]

Quote:       Originally Posted by JimB

Newby here. Had a Model 4 as a kid. Dad gave it to me at the age of 12, planned for a safe single shot for my first deer rifle. I think he paid $10 at a milsurp store. It took us two tries to find one that would shoot true. The first one had a barrel so bad that the slug would come out spinning end over end. I thought it made the neatest "whirring" sound when fired. Dad set me straight about what was happening, though. Never actually shot a deer with it, but it was great fun to shoot. Chambered for 32-20. Very accurate. It was stolen by a wayward cousin when I was about 16. Been trying to find a replacement ever since. Never occured to me to think about a .357 version, but that's a great idea. I will stand in line if any come available for sale JimB

Sog has them right now for $259.95 no ffl required

[mosineer]

Quote:       Originally Posted by 255 DEAN

Hi all, New to G&G forum, lousey typist, still see need to join in. Presently have my Cadet in for rebarrel, octagon, 218 Mashburn Bee I and a buddy both bought ours from Kleins/Chicago in the early 60's, $14.50 each, he got a BSA,I got a Greener. He(deceased) had his rebarreled in Mashburn Bee, beautiful Rosewood stock, scope, nice. I raised four kids and waited untill now. Man!! how prices have gone up. Rosewood blank $250 octagon barrel, God knows how much. I've got powder old enough to vote, $3.00 a lb. Been out of loading/shooting for 20 years. I load 30-06,03a3(2 groove);6.5x55,Nor. Krag, (Kliens $15); 30-40Krag;6mm Rem;(#1 Ruger); 22/250,Ruger 77; 223Savage 340e;25/20 Savage,23B;218 Mashburn Bee, Win43;35-55,94(oct barrel rifle);375 Bigbore Win;45 auto(1911 GI); 357 mag Ruger(2);12 ga,Win 24 double;410 Boito double;Holding out for 25acp , 455 Webley , 8.15x46 Schuetson dies. Think thats about all, started out 1947 with 30-40 Krag sporter W/115 gr Kirksite bullets on Jackrabbits,Dynomite!!!So much for the BS, 2:30am time for bed, 255DEAN

218 Mashburn Bee is a new one to me, I will have to check that one out. Sounds lnteresting. Just got into reloading recently and plan on working up a number of different calibers, but with the Cadet and Colt Trooper being the grandsons favorites, they keep me busy trying to keep up the .38 spl and .357 mag rounds.(i'm slow but i'm careful). Good luck and thanks for posting.....Mos

[Old Hilly]

Mos, the 218 Mashburn Bee is a modified 218 Bee case that carries a little more powder. Aparently you fire-form standard 218 cases in the Mashburn chamber and then re-load as usual. Not too certain of the powder load as yet. Balistically, the 218 MB seems to be a bit more powerful than the .22 Hornet and it's variations but I havn't had mine over a chrono to find out.
I have a BSA cadet in .218 MB with a custom sporter stock and a Slazenger (made by Lithgow Small Arms Factory) barrel. All I need to do is to get it down to the range and see how it shoots.
Dennis.

[mosineer]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Old Hilly

Mos, the 218 Mashburn Bee is a modified 218 Bee case that carries a little more powder. Aparently you fire-form standard 218 cases in the Mashburn chamber and then re-load as usual. Not too certain of the powder load as yet. Balistically, the 218 MB seems to be a bit more powerful than the .22 Hornet and it's variations but I havn't had mine over a chrono to find out. I have a BSA cadet in .218 MB with a custom sporter stock and a Slazenger (made by Lithgow Small Arms Factory) barrel. All I need to do is to get it down to the range and see how it shoots. Dennis.

Thanks Hilly great info!!!!!!

[Old Hilly]

And then there is that Cadet in .222 Rimmed in my safe that needs some decent ammo before I fire it again (the stuff I have is probably 30+ years old and a little worse for wear) and that one in .257 Dean (or .257 improved?) is still sitting in the shop looking lonely and I think I can find room in my gun-safe for just one more Martini.........
Or should I get another safe just for the Martinis?
Dennis.

[mosineer]

Well my better half says I am looking a little green.. green with envy that is...love the Cadet and my one and only is very lonely...get another safe, can't have too many

*****************************************************
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

[Old Hilly]

Mos, I think you are right. I'll get another safe, just for the Martinis. NSW Firearms Registry might want to know what I am doing with all these odd calibre guns but I can always say I am a collector of "oddities". I should be right untill I get to about 25 guns, then there will be some questions about storage and security. The rules down here seem to be a bit tighter than those in the US. California seems to be fairly strict but I cannot really comment.
A "collectable" firearm is not, in theory, one that is able to be shot. As I read the firearms act those guns can only be held for display, should preferably be de-activated and there should be no suitable ammo on the premisis where the guns are stored. If you take the gun out and shoot it you have contraviened your Firearms (collectors) License and there are penalties that apply. There are also classes of weapons for which no (comercial) ammo is available but the problem here is that if you make your own ammo then it will be deemed that ammo is available for that firearm and then it has to be moved into another category.
If I move to another state all this will change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. In general I have found the rules to be a reasonable balance between banning all firearms and allowing unlimited ownership. If you need a gun and pass a simple knowledge test (and have the corect safe storage) you will be able to buy a gun that suits your needs. Criminal records, acts of violence, restraining orders mean you are not going to get a Firearms License. Too bad, so sad.
From what I have seen since I have been spending all too much time in a gun shop, there are people out there who just should not have access to a gun. They have no idea about what they are doing, what ammo they are using and what animals they are going to maim, rather than kill cleanly.
Better get off me soapbox before it colapses and I hurt meself.
Dennis.

[Old Hilly]

Further to my rambling epistle of the 7th, it seems that California's Governor has signed into legislation a bill prohibiting the sale of "pistol amunition" by mail order.
This will make the world (California) a safer place.
There are little green men on Mars.
We already have those restrictions and they havn't worked all that well in Australia.

[herbert rogers]

During my field shooting days I had longed for a 22 caliber center fire sporting rifle built on the cadet Martini action. At different times I owned a 22 Hornet and a 218 Bee and whilst they both performed admirably, both were ugly ducklings and quite without pedigree. I parted with them both and was on the lookout for a cadet action as the basis for a fine sporter. By chance I picked up a Westley Richards .310 Cadet in very good condition which had previously been sporterised, and I hoped it would be the basis for a nice custom sporter.

Shortly thereafter at one of the gun shows in Brisbane during 1990, I came across a rather nice B.S.A. Martini Cadet sporter in 222 Rimmed. Fitted with a Sportco heavy 23.5 inch barrel with scope ring bases fitted to the barrel and dressed in a Fajen custom butt and for end, both showing very nice colour and straight grain. It came with a set of one inch two piece scope rings and 200 Super 222 Rimmed cases. One and a half boxes of the ammo had been fired with the remainder as new and unfired and unloaded. The previous owner had noted the loading data on the box inners and indicated the loads had been done in 1972, so I presume the rifle was built up around that period. Fired cased chambered easily and the projectile jump to the lead was about 1/32nd of an inch, so my guess the rifle and ammo were a match.

The scope I selected to compliment the rifle is a Czech Meopta 7.5 x 50 fixed power and is magic in low light conditions. Shooting is usually from a stationary position over a sand bag or Harris Bi-Pod. My pet load is the 52 grain hollow point with 23.5 grains of AR 2208 at 2975 fps average. At 100 yards off a bench she will print into .75 of an inch at best. The smith who built up this example has done a fine job and the chamber is tight and exhibits a smooth polished finish. My loads are down by 50 to 75 fps from maximum and have shown to perform perfectly without sticking on extraction in the hot summer months.

Needless to say, the Westley Richards .310 Cadet hasn’t as yet been modified and remains in the original caliber. A new scope is required and perhaps a new sporting for end.

Cheers
Herb Rogers

[Old Hilly]

Herb, how do you find that old "Super" brass? I have a couple of boxes of unfired .222 rimmed and many of them had split necks and shoulders with others showing signs of corrosion. A couple of our customers claim that the "Super" brass was fairly hard and also fairly thin.
On one of the boxes someone has written "3000": "23.2gr" and "50gr" which could mean 3,000 FPS, 23.2 grains of some sort of powder and a 50 grain projectile. Length (hand written on the box) is given as 5.3 cm (53mm). Many of the primers have been struck lightly by the firing pin but have not gone off so I guess this person's gun had it's share of problems.
I have been looking around for a Greener and after seeing yours, well, I just have to have one!
Dennis.