[AstroVic]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Ten Man

I've not had to shoot anyone, but I've worked and talked with those who have.

I unfortunately have been there, done that. I can say with certainly that I remember everything about that scenario in almost flawless detail. The one thing I don't remember was ever squinting one eye and lining up my sights. (I guess that pinpoint accuracy stuff isn't so important after all. It's not like shooting at the range, I can promise you that!)

When the schit hits the fan, and you're in a serious dog fight for your life, you're happy just to be able to point & shoot....and hopefully be the last man standing.

[Ten Man]

Quote:       Originally Posted by townley747

Again, they are both excellent firearms...but the reasons why you said the Glock would be perfect for concealed carry are some of the same reasons why they are so popular with law enforcement.

Makes sense to me!

[Pothole]

hey its at least a Honda!

[nuttygun]

Every sig I have ever owned new or preowned has been a piece of shitAnyone out there know anyone with a mosquito sig 22 that does not jam? there all junk I have a 225 that the factory won't touch with a cracked frame they said your on your own 2000 and before .

WHO ELSE HAD PROBLEMS WITH THE SIGS AND i'M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU WEEKEND WARRIORS THAT SHOOT A BOX AND PUT IT IN A SAFE! i'M TALKING A CARRY GUN AND PUT 500 ROUNDS A YEAR THROUGH IT tHE WARRANTIES SUCK! DON'T BUY PREOWNED JUNK WHY DO YOU THINK THEY SELL THAT SHIT THE COPS BEAT IT UP AND ITS BROKE THEY CLEAN THE PIECE OF SHIT UP AND SELL IT TO CHUMPS

[TACAV]

Quote:       Originally Posted by nuttygun

Every sig I have ever owned new or preowned has been a piece of shitAnyone out there know anyone with a mosquito sig 22 that does not jam? there all junk I have a 225 that the factory won't touch with a cracked frame they said your on your own 2000 and before . WHO ELSE HAD PROBLEMS WITH THE SIGS AND i'M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU WEEKEND WARRIORS THAT SHOOT A BOX AND PUT IT IN A SAFE! i'M TALKING A CARRY GUN AND PUT 500 ROUNDS A YEAR THROUGH IT tHE WARRANTIES SUCK! DON'T BUY PREOWNED JUNK WHY DO YOU THINK THEY SELL THAT SHIT THE COPS BEAT IT UP AND ITS BROKE THEY CLEAN THE PIECE OF SHIT UP AND SELL IT TO CHUMPS

Coming from someone who carries a Sig every day for work.


The Sig 22caliber mosquitos were kind of an oddball in the Sig line up Ill admit that. As for the P225 /P6 they are not made anymore so if you have a cracked frame obviously they can't really replace it. If it was a spring set or something internals im pretty sure they still have fixes and replacements for them.

- As for other Sig quality there is a reason the 9mm Sig P226 is choice for the longest time and still is for both the British SAS and the US Navy SEALs and thats coming from two units that can basically choose to carry whatever make or model or caliber they want.

I would not buy a pre owned certified one only factory new ones. So I cant speak for the used ones.

I carry a Sig daily as a standard issued piece of equipment for my job. I trust it. In fact (being a glock fan) I would recommend it over a glock... and for those that hate glocks I would recommend Sig over a pistol made by Heckler and Koch.

I have carried two types of Sigs and both were fine reliability wise and were probably the most accurate out of the box guns ive ever shot.

I can shoot my P229 far better than I can any of my glocks. The reliability that glocks are known for plus way better ergonomics.

The standard Sigs use a double action/single action trigger with a decocker that may/will seem odd only to those who are not used to it.

I will say that that they just like any other large manufacturer out there will have some crappy customer service complaints but so far I cant complain about them.

If the world was going to end a Sig would be on the short list of things to take with me.

I wouldnt do this out of principle with any of my own guns lol but if my Sig got tossed across the parking lot into a sand pile im confident it would still fire.

You Tube

You Tube

Sig torture test.

[KW Gary M]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TACAV

Coming from someone who carries a Sig every day for work. The Sig 22caliber mosquitos were kind of an oddball in the Sig line up Ill admit that. As for the P225 /P6 they are not made anymore so if you have a cracked frame obviously they can't really replace it. If it was a spring set or something internals im pretty sure they still have fixes and replacements for them. - As for other Sig quality there is a reason the 9mm Sig P226 is choice for the longest time and still is for both the British SAS and the US Navy SEALs and thats coming from two units that can basically choose to carry whatever make or model or caliber they want. I would not buy a pre owned certified one only factory new ones. So I cant speak for the used ones. I carry a Sig daily as a standard issued piece of equipment for my job. I trust it. In fact (being a glock fan) I would recommend it over a glock... and for those that hate glocks I would recommend Sig over a pistol made by Heckler and Koch. I have carried two types of Sigs and both were fine reliability wise and were probably the most accurate out of the box guns ive ever shot. I can shoot my P229 far better than I can any of my glocks. The reliability that glocks are known for plus way better ergonomics. The standard Sigs use a double action/single action trigger with a decocker that may/will seem odd only to those who are not used to it. I will say that that they just like any other large manufacturer out there will have some crappy customer service complaints but so far I cant complain about them. If the world was going to end a Sig would be on the short list of things to take with me. I wouldnt do this out of principle with any of my own guns lol but if my Sig got tossed across the parking lot into a sand pile im confident it would still fire. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgjmt...eature=related Sig torture test.

To answer the origional post, Sig, Sig, Sig. A Sig is, in my opinion, 100 times the gun Glock will ever be. There torture tests however only show how stupid the consumer can be. Do you ever plan on dropping your gun out of a helecopter, ferrzing it in ice, dragging it behind a large truck or piledriving it into the ground? Do you clean your gun in a car wash? I loved Sig before watching this video but didn't gain any like or dislike due to this test. Just about every gun maker out there has some sort of torture test and they all show me nothing.

[TACAV]

Quote:       Originally Posted by KW Gary M

To answer the origional post, Sig, Sig, Sig. A Sig is, in my opinion, 100 times the gun Glock will ever be. There torture tests however only show how stupid the consumer can be. Do you ever plan on dropping your gun out of a helecopter, ferrzing it in ice, dragging it behind a large truck or piledriving it into the ground? Do you clean your gun in a car wash? I loved Sig before watching this video but didn't gain any like or dislike due to this test. Just about every gun maker out there has some sort of torture test and they all show me nothing.

true but its just one way to show what it can do. If the gun can work from being dropped out of a helicopter in the sky or dragged though a dirt pit on the ground it gives me that much more confidence that it will work after I fall on it in a fight in the sand (where I work) from standing height. take what you will from them.

[KW Gary M]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TACAV

true but its just one way to show what it can do. If the gun can work from being dropped out of a helicopter in the sky or dragged though a dirt pit on the ground it gives me that much more confidence that it will work after I fall on it in a fight in the sand (where I work) from standing height. take what you will from them.

I have all the faith in the world in Sig. They are tough guns. Not ready to give up my XD as my main gun yet but if I did Sig would be next choice.

[BORIS]

Quote:       Originally Posted by KW Gary M

To answer the origional post, Sig, Sig, Sig. A Sig is, in my opinion, 100 times the gun Glock will ever be. There torture tests however only show how stupid the consumer can be. Do you ever plan on dropping your gun out of a helecopter, ferrzing it in ice, dragging it behind a large truck or piledriving it into the ground? Do you clean your gun in a car wash? I loved Sig before watching this video but didn't gain any like or dislike due to this test. Just about every gun maker out there has some sort of torture test and they all show me nothing.

KWG

You might not operate from a helicopter or roof tops where a gun might be dropped. You may not work in sub freezing temps for days or weeks on end where your gun WILL get frozen. Your gun might not get run over.

There are people out there that purchase arms that will go into harms way, you do not (we got that already). For those that do it is comforting to see that an arm they have chosen will stand up to extreme abuse. Some consumers are not 'stupid' as you claim.

[BORIS]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TACAV

true but its just one way to show what it can do. If the gun can work from being dropped out of a helicopter in the sky or dragged though a dirt pit on the ground it gives me that much more confidence that it will work after I fall on it in a fight in the sand (where I work) from standing height. take what you will from them.

I see we feel the same way......

[TACAV]

meh to be fair i dont think gary was trying to insult anyone in particular. but a choice in ones personal sidearm/ carry gun is probably one of the most personal pieces of equipment or tools that one can make whether it be for personal sentimental reasons or for more practical reasons. Or a combination of both.

A lot of these gun X vs gun Y threads all share the same theme, unless we are comparing a $50 Lorcin .25ACP to a mint condition Colt Python for the best pistol of the century award lol its pretty much everyone bringing up the best and worst opinion, review, expirience, and anecdotal story of every gun ever named in such thread. <-- my self included.

In the end its to each his own, and what works for one may not work for another. One mans trash is another mans treasure etc etc.

Pick what works for you, what you shoot best with and what will work best in the conditions that you will use it in.

try the gun out, rent one, or barrow one, or try one out at the range if it works for you, cool if not, move on.

The first years of my "gun acquisition years" was a lot of trial and error. In the end I got a good feel for what I liked and what I didn't like about several different types of shooting platforms. Those that I liked I kept or bought more of, those that I didnt, I sold or traded for something else. My gun collection of today looks a lot different than it did a couple years ago.

Im not a big "collector" and so far between selling, trading and buying Ive actually come out pretty even.

[KW Gary M]

Quote:       Originally Posted by BORIS

KWG You might not operate from a helicopter or roof tops where a gun might be dropped. You may not work in sub freezing temps for days or weeks on end where your gun WILL get frozen. Your gun might not get run over. There are people out there that purchase arms that will go into harms way, you do not (we got that already). For those that do it is comforting to see that an arm they have chosen will stand up to extreme abuse. Some consumers are not 'stupid' as you claim.

In the odd event that a gun is dropped from a roof top are you going to jump off that roof and pick your gun up and continue the fight? Has your gun ever beec frozen in a 10 pound bolck of ice? As TACAV said, I'm not looking to insult anyone just satting my feeling that those torture tests are foolish. Why not do a test that shows the gun in everyday common use? Even the average Law Enforcement Officer might fire his/her weapon in the line of duty on one ocasion if that. One of my range buddies is a 27 year DEA Veteran and he told me he has drawn his gun once in the line of duty and NEVER shot it.

As for Harm's way, I bought my first carry gun in college when I was working as a white boy in Harlem delivering for a liquor distributor that only accepted cash as payment. If carrying $25,000+ cash through Harlem after dark isn't harm's way what is?

[Beach Bum]

Originally Posted by BORIS
KWG

You might not operate from a helicopter or roof tops where a gun might be dropped. You may not work in sub freezing temps for days or weeks on end where your gun WILL get frozen. Your gun might not get run over.

There are people out there that purchase arms that will go into harms way, you do not (we got that already). For those that do it is comforting to see that an arm they have chosen will stand up to extreme abuse. Some consumers are not 'stupid' as you claim.

Quote:       Originally Posted by KW Gary M

In the odd event that a gun is dropped from a roof top are you going to jump off that roof and pick your gun up and continue the fight? Has your gun ever beec frozen in a 10 pound bolck of ice? As TACAV said, I'm not looking to insult anyone just satting my feeling that those torture tests are foolish. Why not do a test that shows the gun in everyday common use? Even the average Law Enforcement Officer might fire his/her weapon in the line of duty on one ocasion if that. One of my range buddies is a 27 year DEA Veteran and he told me he has drawn his gun once in the line of duty and NEVER shot it. As for Harm's way, I bought my first carry gun in college when I was working as a white boy in Harlem delivering for a liquor distributor that only accepted cash as payment. If carrying $25,000+ cash through Harlem after dark isn't harm's way what is?

Being one who's career was spent going into court when an officer had to fire his weapon in the line of duty I can tell you that national statistics say that 87% (was the figure in 2005 when I retired) of all law enforcement, City, County, State and federal, have never fired their weapon in the line of duty. We used to receive booklets and booklets of results of torture tests from every gun maker trying to get us to buy their guns. They all sat in the Men's room next to the bowl because they were funny toilet reading. In the over 30 years I worked in The Legal Department for NYC we never had an officer drop his gun from a helicopter, light it on fire, fill it with cement or run it over with a Semi. Not once. I will say that I, as a citizen, would feel a lot more threatened carrying cash through Harlem than I would being a cop on Long Island. We had more gun related incidents in a 15 block radius in Harlem that all the rest of New York City combined. Play in the jungle and you'll incur animals.

I think Boris just likes to argue. You would have made a great lawyer, always right, very opinioned, full of hot air and usually talks about everything other than the facts. We had a class on that at Yale Law.

[Elvis Is Dead]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Beach Bum

Originally Posted by BORIS KWG You might not operate from a helicopter or roof tops where a gun might be dropped. You may not work in sub freezing temps for days or weeks on end where your gun WILL get frozen. Your gun might not get run over. There are people out there that purchase arms that will go into harms way, you do not (we got that already). For those that do it is comforting to see that an arm they have chosen will stand up to extreme abuse. Some consumers are not 'stupid' as you claim. Originally Posted by: Beach Bum Being one who's career was spent going into court when an officer had to fire his weapon in the line of duty I can tell you that national statistics say that 87% (was the figure in 2005 when I retired) of all law enforcement, City, County, State and federal, have never fired their weapon in the line of duty. We used to receive booklets and booklets of results of torture tests from every gun maker trying to get us to buy their guns. They all sat in the Men's room next to the bowl because they were funny toilet reading. In the over 30 years I worked in The Legal Department for NYC we never had an officer drop his gun from a helicopter, light it on fire, fill it with cement or run it over with a Semi. Not once. I will say that I, as a citizen, would feel a lot more threatened carrying cash through Harlem than I would being a cop on Long Island. We had more gun related incidents in a 15 block radius in Harlem that all the rest of New York City combined. Play in the jungle and you'll incur animals. I think Boris just likes to argue. You would have made a great lawyer, always right, very opinioned, full of hot air and usually talks about everything other than the facts. We had a class on that at Yale Law.

I find those torture tests to be interesting but interesting in a funny way. I wonder who comes up with ideas to stick a gun up a cow's butt for a week and see if it will still fire when you take it out. They do make me laugh.

Beach, you should know better than to question Boris. He's better, smarter and knows a lot more than all of us. Just ask him. He'll be glad to tell you.

[KW Gary M]

Origionaly posted by: Beach Bum: I think Boris just likes to argue. You would have made a great lawyer, always right, very opinioned, full of hot air and usually talks about everything other than the facts. We had a class on that at Yale Law.[/QUOTE]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Elvis Is Dead

I find those torture tests to be interesting but interesting in a funny way. I wonder who comes up with ideas to stick a gun up a cow's butt for a week and see if it will still fire when you take it out. They do make me laugh. Beach, you should know better than to question Boris. He's better, smarter and knows a lot more than all of us. Just ask him. He'll be glad to tell you.

Guys, please, can we make this less of an insult each other forum and more af a gun related forum? We all have opinions and most of us disagree more than we agree but let's all be adults and voice our opinions as well as learn from each other's opinions. I can listen to children fight everyday by calling my sister. She has twin 5 year olds. Boris and I have very rarely agreed on opinion other than donating Kelly's broken Glock to The Secret Service Man covering Obama but we still treat each other with respect and act like adults. Tempers start, insults are posted, people get banned and everyone looses. Let's keep this great forum the great forum it is.

[Browning]

another vote for SIG hear, just a better built gun! And looks good too.

[Pothole]

i agree, glocks are fine guns and get the job done, but a sig in my mind is a more respected, better looking, reliable, well built gun

[G. Green]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Beach Bum

Originally Posted by BORIS KWG a great lawyer, always right, very opinioned, full of hot air and usually talks about everything other than the facts. We had a class on that at Yale Law.

LOL! If you have the facts pound the facts, if you don't have the facts pound the table.

[BORIS]

Quote:       Originally Posted by KW Gary M

Origionaly posted by: Beach Bum: I think Boris just likes to argue. You would have made a great lawyer, always right, very opinioned, full of hot air and usually talks about everything other than the facts. We had a class on that at Yale Law.

Quote:       Originally Posted by KW Gary M

Guys, please, can we make this less of an insult each other forum and more af a gun related forum? We all have opinions and most of us disagree more than we agree but let's all be adults and voice our opinions as well as learn from each other's opinions. I can listen to children fight everyday by calling my sister. She has twin 5 year olds. Boris and I have very rarely agreed on opinion other than donating Kelly's broken Glock to The Secret Service Man covering Obama but we still treat each other with respect and act like adults. Tempers start, insults are posted, people get banned and everyone looses. Let's keep this great forum the great forum it is.

Never an argument from me. I just have a very direct way of setting some facts straight. Glocks do not suck. XDs are not the be all end all. A pistol might get dropped 40-50 feet, they will get frozen and submerged in water and covered in mud. I do understand you guys though, I mean I know ALOT of people that buy jeeps for nothing but driving to the mall. Why in the world would they care how good it works as a mudder or rock crawling? It is just a device of driving to the mall. Why get mud on the roof? Why engage the 4x4? I mean jeez, who actualy uses a jeep?.....

I understand where you are comming from. You need to experience a few things to understand where I am comming from when I opine on the working aspect of pistols, not just the drive to the mall kinda pistol use.......

[DaTeacha]

Beach Bum - knowing that only 15% or less of LEOs actually need to fire their weapon in earnest is great. The question is, if you were an active duty LEO right now, which gun would you rather have on your hip?

A lot of the answer will depend on the situation in which you are working. A city cop will encounter a much different set of circumstances than a rural game warden. An undercover drug agent will put his weapon through different job related 'tests' than a highway patrolman.

Each officer and each department should have access to the tests and should compare them with the most extreme conditions their officers have encountered. The department should make a recommendation or two and the officer whose life might depend on the weapon should be given the right to make the final choice as to what to carry. Use the departmental recommendation as the price point. If the officer wants to use a more expensive weapon, they should be able to do so, but they should be expected to pony up the difference, pay for the ammo if different from issue caliber, and score high on qualifying tests.

Most officers will just take the departmental issue gear, but those dedicated souls who take their weapon and it's use most seriously should have some say in what tools they use.