06-24-2002, 09:38 PM
| #21 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Behind the Iron Curtain
Posts: 517
| Here are some sample prices from a local gun store's website: www.whittakerguns.com Colt 1911A1 Gov. or Commander start at $539.99. Springfield Mil Spec at $469.99. No CZ service pistol costs more than $459.99 (for the 97B in .45). The average is more like $359.99. Taurus 92/96 clones max out around $475 for Nite Sights installed. Beretta are not listed on the website, but I believe a 92FS is less than $600.
__________________ WARNING: CZs MAY BE HABIT-FORMING (Consult a doctor if nursing or pregnant). |
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06-24-2002, 09:43 PM
| #22 |
| Senior Member   | I paid $800 for my Springfield V-12 ported stainless...but worth it, when it barks on the range everyones gotta take a peek!
__________________ U.S. Army 1976-1979 237th Combat Engineers Heilbronn, Germany |
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06-24-2002, 10:04 PM
| #23 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Behind the Iron Curtain
Posts: 517
| Isn't Always about Money, But... Well, we know that in a strict practical sense, the $650 P226 is not as useful as 6 FEG PA-63s. That is, no matter how great the pistol is, it can't outperform 6 mediocre pistols. I wonder how many people snapped up 3, 4, and more Bulgarian Maks to have "hand-out" pistols to give their family in case the worst ever happens? At the same time, who wouldn't rather have the P226 when it came to shooting pleasure (accuracy)? I have learned the hard way that you can only really enjoy owning about 4 pistols; more just don't get shot. In the end, a serious shooter will spend more on ammo and/or components than guns, so you might as well get what you want. It's a crowded market, and SIGs are neither cheap, nor as well advertised as say, Glock. |
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06-24-2002, 11:40 PM
| #24 |
| Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 16
| I think its safe to say that supply and demand dictates the price of any item,not just firearms. seems like guns in general ae going up in price depending on the laws in the idividual state were you live.In Mass you can't buy a 1911 type pistol,they have to be approved and tested by the attorney generals office before sale at local gun shops,long and twisted law dhaze |
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06-25-2002, 08:34 AM
| #25 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas
Posts: 2,383
| From the link FEG posted: The Kimbers range from $593 to $1370 The Colts are $540-$790, however, I doubt they are actually available. It has been quite a while since I have seen new Colt pistols since the company almost completely shut down. The $540 does seem to be a real good price. Anyone actually see these pistols at that price? PS: Bulgie Maks are WAY better than PA-63s. The PAs have a poorly designed magazine catch that results in dropped mags and very bad triggers. They look nice though. I had a FEG P-35 clone (PJK-9HP) and it was a POS, though very pretty. Several people have returned PA-63s to the local gun store due to mechanical problems. The store will not carry them any more.
__________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!" Last edited by Klaus; 06-25-2002 at 08:39 AM. |
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06-25-2002, 10:14 PM
| #26 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Behind the Iron Curtain
Posts: 517
| Colt Availability The store in question has quite a few entry level Colts. They had four different poly Commanders two weeks ago. I was trying to figure out which one my friend should buy. He put a down payment on a $539 Colt. I have heard some mixed reviews of these pistols, so I hope this turns out OK... The Maks are better than the FEG pistols, by and large. I have put a lot of rounds through two PA-63s with no problems, though. The stock springs in these pistols are often just shot. After I replaced the recoil spring in my dad and I's PA-63s, they have always shot as well as most Makarovs. The DA trigger is BAD on an FEG, and you can't do much about it (design, not QC problem). When you get a good one (I had quite a few to pick from) with new springs, they are perfectly reliable and much lighter than Maks. They make a nice second pistol for Mak owners or people who want a gun that they can abuse with pocket carry. I will go on record and say that if I won the lottery, there would be a SIG or two in my gunsafe. |
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06-28-2002, 10:08 PM
| #27 |
| Guest
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| They do make Rifles & Shotguns....They make H&K look inexpensive by comparison... |
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06-28-2002, 10:15 PM
| #28 |
| Guest
Posts: n/a
| I've seen a Sig AMT General Purpose Machine Gun (.308/7.62NATO) & a 510 Assault Rifle (.223/5.56 NATO)...I've always wanted a 210 |
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07-01-2002, 07:06 PM
| #29 |
| Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Indiana
Posts: 331
| In reference to a couple of posts a few days ago. I live in SW Indiana too. I have a couple of Glocks, a Colt, a Kimber, and two Sigs. The 220 Sig is the best. The Glock 21 and the Kimber are close 2nds. The Kimber trigger is the best due to it's light pull. Indy |
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07-10-2002, 03:41 AM
| #31 |
| Member Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 38
| well, it's been a while since i've posted here and i'm glad there's some discussion going on. i do have to say though, just because there are a lot of people buying glocks doesn't necessarily mean they are better. it just means more people are buying them. i know a lot of people come to the range i shoot at and want to rent a glock. most of it is because that's what they always see in the movies, and they know the police carry them. (around here the police have recently switched to the sig-pro). i have a glock, sig 220 and a berreta. for a standard, service gun that is easy to use, simple in it's make up, and fairly idiot proof, the glock works. for accurate, pleasurable shooting with a gun that is balanced better and tuned to perform, the beretta is only surpassed by the sig. i go to the range three times a week... minimum. i don't use the glock anymore. the sig just shoots so well and fits in every way imaginable that there is no reason to step down to a lesser gun. |
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07-11-2002, 01:03 AM
| #32 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Behind the Iron Curtain
Posts: 517
| Balance? No offense, but I think you need to try a CZ 75B. I have yet to meet an impartial observer (I'm not one myself) who does not agree with me that the CZ has much better ergonomics, balance, and out-of-box trigger than the Beretta 92/96 series. Berettas tend to have a slightly higher quality of finish, and they are a hair more inherently accurate (in my limited experience). That actually says a lot for the Beretta, because I feel its grip hurts its performance for many people. In my untutored opinion, the top echelon of 9mm service pistol manufacturers/designs consists of (no particular order): Beretta, CZ, and Sig. I won't bore you with my personal criteria, but you may have noticed that this list favors full-size, relatively heavy pistols of essentially Browning-Petter origin. HK doesn't make the list purely because I have never shot any of their pistols (9mm or other). A short explanation would be that I include the military in the notion "service," and a lot of popular law enforcement and civilian pistols just can't stand thousands of NATO spec rounds (Ruger and S&W come to mind). Glocks are so conspicuous in their absence from the list that I guess I have to address it. I won't waste your time with the usual "Glock Hater's Diatribe." I WILL say the following. 1) Few people that have reached a high skill level with a Browning-type pistol can shoot a Glock as well as a traditional design. People who start out with striker-fired/DAO do fine, but the transition is tough. In my experience, Glock triggers do not begin to compare with quality SA or DA/SA pistols. 2) Like many things that are "idiot proof" or "relatively maintenance free," when Glocks do fail, they are not exactly easy to fix. From a military standpoint, Glocks would have to do as well as advertised, since they are much more mechanically complicated than a Browning-Petter pistol. As popular as the Glock pistols are with law enforcement, their military presence is virtually nil; hmm.... Another conspicuous absence is the Hi-Power (P-35). Neither the current Mk III design, nor FN/Browning's quality control inspires much confidence in yours truly. The only nice thing that I can say about the Portuguese pistols is that they can take NATO spec. FN/Browning has the potential to be in the top echelon, but the firm seems determined to leave the pistol market, one way or another. Unfortunately, they are taking a truly great service pistol down with them... Between Beretta, CZ, and Sig (and possibly HK, remember?), I would hate to live on the difference. For example, they are all close enough that no one would seriously question that a CZ with a trigger job is more accurate than an out-of-the-box Sig. Obviously, Sig gets the nod if you have to call it, but I think that it really boils down to preference and price in the end. I just realized another thing that really hurts Sig. Beretta and CZ designs are available in cheaper clones (Taurus and Tanfoglio), while the Sig stands alone. This probably hurts their sales and popularity even further. I know several Taurus and EAA owners who have "upgraded" to the Beretta or CZ. That's a total of 2 Berettas and 1 CZ sold in my immediate circle alone; imagine this on an international scale... |
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07-11-2002, 02:32 AM
| #33 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas
Posts: 2,383
| Glocks ARE Petter-Browning action pistols. I do not understand your implication that they are not. The main Petter modification of the Browning design was to have the barrel lock on the ejection port. Also, when did FN move their pistol production to Portugal? All the post war Browning pistols I have seen were made in FN's plant in Belgium.
__________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!" Last edited by Klaus; 07-11-2002 at 03:14 AM. |
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07-11-2002, 04:03 AM
| #34 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Behind the Iron Curtain
Posts: 517
| Glocks and Other Off-Topic Stuff I was wrong about the Browning-Petter op sys on the Glock. I thought the lock-up was not traditional Browning-Petter, but the type normally called "improved" in reference books. According to Hartink's "Encyclopedia...," you're absolutely right. I believe I was thinking of another pistol (probably the HK USP?). At least some Hi-Powers have been made in Portugual for several years now. The pistols are marked both "FN" and "Made in Portugal." I am not certain if this occured near the end of the Mk II run, or it marked the debut of the Mk III. All of the really pricey ones are still marked as Belgian, so this may be limited to service pistols. The two Portuguese pistols I have handled were pretty bad; I've seen better triggers on Argentine and Hungarian guns. It seems like shooters of my generation either do not appreciate the Hi-Power at all, or find them overpriced in today's handgun market (I know I do). Maybe I am giving us too much credit, and it is the whole 15 vs. 13 issue (hopefully, just kidding). I favor the larger, heavier 9mm pistols, becuase they are just about the easiest semi-auto to shoot (but not with +P+ ammo). The current trend is away from these guns and towards smaller, less steel, etc. Less than two decades ago, 9mm was going to save us all from the horrors of the underpowered .38. Now, 9mm is on the chopping block (being replaced by the .40 and reinvented as a 10 rd compact). In short, the companies have to sell new product to survive. I appreciate that, but it seems crass to convince folks that they need to spend the extra $ on a compact version that may spend the next four decades in a drawer. Klaus, I'm sure you can relate to me here: I honestly do not know what other people value in a handgun, based on what folks seem to buy. Maybe I am hypersensitive, since this is serious business, but the market/manufacturer relationship is inverted in the civilian arms industry. Perhaps this was the inevitable consequence of regulation and restriction; once true market forces are no longer as important as how to get a particualr model approved, etc, everything goes downhill. At any rate, the big firms end up telling us what to buy; instead of us telling them what to make. I will say this about many of the European firms. Several seem to be taking the attitude that they are NOT going to "dumb down" their entire line in order to sell a few hundred guns in Massachussets. Would the Clinton agenda have succeeded if certain major domestic concerns hadn't seen this as a perverse form of protectionism? Wow, I seemed to have turned into a poor man's Cooper a few paragraphs back. Time to go to bed... |
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07-11-2002, 05:31 AM
| #35 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas
Posts: 2,383
| Hehe. Oddly enough, I liked the P-35, but could not afford a FN. So I bought a copy, made by FEG. It was called a PJK9HP. It was very pretty, but turned out to be a POS. The grips, finish, and machining was real nice, but they used inferior materials. It started developing several problems after about 100 rounds. The most serious was a bent hammer pin, which caused it to go full auto on me. I replaced it and carefully inspected the frame and found many other problems. I sold it cheap to someone, after pointing out problem areas. I think they used very mild steel so it could be machined and polished more easily.
__________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!" |
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07-11-2002, 03:59 PM
| #36 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Behind the Iron Curtain
Posts: 517
| FEG Pistols Yup. "Soft" steel, compared to some of the modern ordnance alloys. My FEG GKK needs a new mag catch pretty bad for the same reason. The FEG have good fit and finish overall, as compared to some Argentine Hi-Powers, but the Argentine guns are a bit more "solid." |
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07-12-2002, 04:12 PM
| #37 | |
| Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Cajun Country
Posts: 34
| Quote:
 Just so others know, FEG and I know each other on other forums... Sorry, buddy, but, if only to live up to my member name, I gotta take issue with the above. You'll understand, I know... 1. Glock triggers are "different", but not at all hard to master. As you know, I shoot both types and without a problem. 2. Not easy to fix? Haven't worked on many, have ya?  Complete detail strip in less than a minute. "IF" you should need to replace anything, and that is extremely rare, any part, of the 35 in the gun, can be replaced in literally seconds and the gun reassembled and running in a couple of minutes... How am I doing?  3. No military presence? Hmmmmmmmmmm. Limited in the USA, possibly, but only because of the way the military buys guns. They've passed every test, to my knowledge, that the military has subjected them to. Unfortunately, low bidders and favorite sons, sometimes take precidence. <VBG> But, back to the SIGS. The one's I've shot seem to be high quality weapons. Very accurate. But, most quality handguns are more accurate than the purpose for which they were intended, requires. One complaint I have about the Sig is the high bore axis. This is one of the advantages the Glock has over most handguns. Lower bore axis means less muzzle flip, and thus, better recoil control. I would like to have a 239 in .40, though, if, for no other reason, than because the 239 (in 357 SIG) is what the Federal Air Marshals carry. I haven't shot their COF with the 239, yet, and you know how I love to shoot their TPC... BTW, I own a CZ, also, as well as other quality handguns. Love them all, but Glock is my standby. I carry my 27 or 23, daily, and have never felt under protected. After 68k rounds, through the 23, still no malfs or part changes. Tough record to beat.Didn't mean to chew on ya. Just thought I'd set the record straight... See ya at FFTC sometimes...
__________________ Glock Director Feliciana Firearms Training Center http://www.ballisticreview.com/images/marvin.gif .....Martian Certified!..... | |
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07-12-2002, 11:42 PM
| #40 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas
Posts: 2,383
| OK, Alan.Come up here in Cypress, and we can do some target shooting at Hot Wells. I would be happy to spring for the range fees and can probably provide ammo for whatever you have.
__________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!" |
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