debate on sniper shooting through a scope

sks=happy · 01-30-2008, 10:39 AM

i posted a thread awhile ago about the movie sniper and it turned into a debate about if its possible to shoot an enemy sniper through his scope and kill him. well larry01970 i have a dvd about carlos (r.i.p)to back up what you had said. so +2 for larry01970

check out the link.....Video of sniper - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Bravo · 01-30-2008, 10:41 AM

YouTube - Mythbusters Scope

YouTube - Mythbusters: SNIPER SCOPE REVISITED

Possible, yes, but not with modern scopes, or without armor piercing rounds.

Did Hathcock actually go to his victim? Probably not. His shots were usually hundreds of yards. I believe that he saw the glint of the scope, that the enemy was looking right at him, and that he killed him. But at that range, he could have easily missed the scope by 1 inch and still made a good kill.

LarryO1970 · 01-30-2008, 10:46 AM

It was done once... at least that we know about. Modern days, nothing I am aware of. You are correct though, AP rounds and a miracle would be about it... to get through a modern scope to kill the shooter.

Cyrano · 01-30-2008, 11:38 AM

Bravo, I believe he did actully 'step on the body.' I remember reading about the incident in a biography of Carlos Hathcock written a couple of years before his death.

Bravo · 01-30-2008, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrano

Bravo, I believe he did actully 'step on the body.' I remember reading about the incident in a biography of Carlos Hathcock written a couple of years before his death.

If he said that he went up to the victim, then I have no doubts that he did it. There is no reason to believe that a man with such legendary status should lie.

Nonetheless, it's a cool story

sks=happy · 01-30-2008, 01:29 PM

and not only did he do that, Carlos had the longest confirmed kill of any sniper which was 1 1/2 miles....

YouTube - Carlos Hathcock Interview - Part 1 of 3

at the end of the video above carlos himself tells about the shoot through the scope its the last 3mins.....

mosquitofish · 05-14-2008, 04:41 PM

DEAD right. I thing it was done the way Carlos said it was done!!

jmp8927 · 05-14-2008, 05:47 PM

The Vietnamese used the older Russian surplus rifles with fixed power scopes as far as I know, so I don't doubt it. Very possible for a top notch marksman to put a bullet right down the center.

Sargeyork · 05-16-2008, 01:04 PM

Snipers in Vietnam couldn't claim a confirmed kill unless someone other than the shooter laid hands on the body or it was witnessed by alot of people, Carlos did it, NO DOUBT, he was a great man.

762x39FMJ · 05-16-2008, 04:29 PM

Carlos Hathcock did it and that is a fact. Remember the Mythbusters are not professional snipers and do not have thousands of hours of range time. When this episode came out I Emailed Adam Savage and pointed out some of the mistakes as well as the history of the shot in question. He was real cool and replied to me and was telling me about the second attempt they made. We both agreed it was a million to 1 shot. Let me dig up that Email and I will post it when I do find it.

It happened but all the planets and stars were aligned that day, In other words it was pure luck and probably will never be duplicated. He got lucky and it only added to his mystic.

Carlos Hathcock is a Marine legend and we as Marines all look up to him. He was a professional and every Marine looked up to him and tried to follow his example of his professionalism.

soonerborn · 05-16-2008, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bravo

Did Hathcock actually go to his victim? Probably not. His shots were usually hundreds of yards. I believe that he saw the glint of the scope, that the enemy was looking right at him, and that he killed him. But at that range, he could have easily missed the scope by 1 inch and still made a good kill.

First off, when someone of Hathcocks integrity says it, I take it at face value.

Secondly, he didnt just view it from a distance. The rifle in question was actually recovered and shown to several other people.

Thirdly, There is a picture of Hathcock with the rifle in question.

LarryO1970 · 05-16-2008, 05:26 PM

Plain and simple, it is what it is ...

On May 20th, 1959, at 17 years of age, Carlos N. Hathcock II fulfilled his childhood dream by enlisting in the United States Marine Corps. His ability as a marksman was soon recognized by the instructors on the rifle range at Camp Pendleton where he was undergoing recruit training. Later, while based in Hawaii as a member of Company E, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, Carlos won the Pacific Division rifle championship. Following his assignment in Hawaii, Hathcock was transferred to Marine Air Station, Cherry Point, North Carolina, where he quickly found himself shooting competitively again. This time he set the Marine Corps record on the "A" Course with a score of 248 points out of a possible 250, a record that stands today. The highlight of his competitive shooting career occurred in 1965 when Carlos out-shot over 3000 other servicemen competing to win the coveted Wimbledon Cup at Camp Perry.

This achievement led to his being sought out in Vietnam in 1966 to be part of a newly established sniper program. After his training was completed Carlos began his new assignment. Operating from Hill 55, a position 35 miles South-West of Da Nang, Hathcock and his fellow Marine snipers renewed a Marine tactic which had been born in the islands of the Pacific in World War II. Within a short period of time the effects of the Marine snipers could be felt around Hill 55. Carlos rapidly ran up a toll on the enemy that would eventually lead to a bounty being placed on his head by the NVA.

As a result of his skill Sergeant Hathcock was twice recruited for covert assignments. One of the them was to kill a Frenchman who was working for the North Vietnamese as an interrogator. This individual was torturing American airmen who had been shot down and captured. One round from Carlos' modified Winchester Model 70 ended the Frenchman's career. On another occasion Sergeant Hathcock accepted an assignment for which he was plainly told that his odds for survival were slim. A North Vietnamese general was the target, and the man died when a bullet fired by Carlos struck him from a range of 800 yards. Hathcock returned to Hill 55 unscathed. In one incredible incident an enemy sniper was killed after a prolonged game of "cat and mouse" between Carlos, with his spotter, and the NVA sniper. The fatal round, fired at 500 yards by Hathcock, passed directly through the NVA sniper's rifle scope, striking him in the eye.

Hathcock would eventually be credited with 93 enemy confirmed killed, including one Viet Cong shot dead by a round fired from a scope-mounted Browning M-2 .50 caliber machine gun at the unbelievable range of 2500 yards.

In 1969, during his second tour of duty in Vietnam, Carlos was badly burned while rescuing fellow Marines from a burning Amtrack. The other Marines and Carlos had been riding in the vehicle when it ran over an anti-tank mine. Despite the severity of his wounds it would ultimately be the ravages of Multiple Sclerosis (MS) that would bring Hathcock's extraordinary career to an end. In 1979 he was made to retire on 100% disability due to the advancing stages of the disease.

Gunnery Sergeant Hathcock has spent subsequent years instructing police tactical units in "counter-sniper" techniques. In 1990 a book entitled Marine Sniper, by Charles Henderson, was published, documenting the exploits of this one-of-a-kind Marine. Regretfully Carlos has yet to receive a penny of royalties from sales of the book, which has been produced both in hard cover and paper-back.

As this brief history is written he is confined to a wheel chair, struggling against the disease which he knows is terminal. Nonetheless he attempts to get to the police rifle range as often as possible. He still loves the crack of the rifles, the smell of gun powder as it drifts across the range, and the company of good men striving to be the best at what they do. The indomitable Carlos N. Hathcock II is indeed one of the "Few and Proud."

A man of this character, integrity and skill requires no questions of the same. He is a Marine legend, no less.

mudslinging79 · 05-21-2008, 05:59 PM

in his book, he did turn in the scoped rifle minus the glass for the obvious reason, but it dissapeared while in the armory, if it even made it in there.

rondog · 05-22-2008, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

Regretfully, Carlos has yet to receive a penny of royalties from sales of the book, which has been produced both in hard cover and paper-back.

Man, that SUCKS!!! I hate seeing good people cheated by scamming bastards. I hope he sues the piss out of that writer and the publishing company.

sean46953 · 05-23-2008, 01:59 AM

You know...Even if I didn't respect Carlos, I'd still fear him. If he was alive, I wouldn't doubt a word he said for fear of my own life,so, it only seems fair to never doubt a word he's said even when his time ran out. I say he did it....I would like to see the picture of the gun though...Wonder what the scope looks like, probably useless now. lol

SwedeSteve · 05-23-2008, 09:05 AM

Definitely a Legend in his own time !!

01-30-2008, 10:39 AM	#1
sks=happy Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 43 Trader Rating: (0)	debate on sniper shooting through a scope i posted a thread awhile ago about the movie sniper and it turned into a debate about if its possible to shoot an enemy sniper through his scope and kill him. well larry01970 i have a dvd about carlos (r.i.p)to back up what you had said. so +2 for larry01970 check out the link.....Video of sniper - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting Last edited by sks=happy; 01-30-2008 at 10:53 AM.

05-14-2008, 05:47 PM	#8
jmp8927 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Walterboro, SC Posts: 1,092 Trader Rating: (0)	The Vietnamese used the older Russian surplus rifles with fixed power scopes as far as I know, so I don't doubt it. Very possible for a top notch marksman to put a bullet right down the center. __________________ Doing the unexpected makes the unexpected the expected and thus the expected becomes the unexpected.

05-16-2008, 05:26 PM	#12
LarryO1970 "Blazing Saddles" GOV Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johnson Creek, WI Posts: 2,176 Trader Rating: (0)	Plain and simple, it is what it is ... On May 20th, 1959, at 17 years of age, Carlos N. Hathcock II fulfilled his childhood dream by enlisting in the United States Marine Corps. His ability as a marksman was soon recognized by the instructors on the rifle range at Camp Pendleton where he was undergoing recruit training. Later, while based in Hawaii as a member of Company E, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, Carlos won the Pacific Division rifle championship. Following his assignment in Hawaii, Hathcock was transferred to Marine Air Station, Cherry Point, North Carolina, where he quickly found himself shooting competitively again. This time he set the Marine Corps record on the "A" Course with a score of 248 points out of a possible 250, a record that stands today. The highlight of his competitive shooting career occurred in 1965 when Carlos out-shot over 3000 other servicemen competing to win the coveted Wimbledon Cup at Camp Perry. This achievement led to his being sought out in Vietnam in 1966 to be part of a newly established sniper program. After his training was completed Carlos began his new assignment. Operating from Hill 55, a position 35 miles South-West of Da Nang, Hathcock and his fellow Marine snipers renewed a Marine tactic which had been born in the islands of the Pacific in World War II. Within a short period of time the effects of the Marine snipers could be felt around Hill 55. Carlos rapidly ran up a toll on the enemy that would eventually lead to a bounty being placed on his head by the NVA. As a result of his skill Sergeant Hathcock was twice recruited for covert assignments. One of the them was to kill a Frenchman who was working for the North Vietnamese as an interrogator. This individual was torturing American airmen who had been shot down and captured. One round from Carlos' modified Winchester Model 70 ended the Frenchman's career. On another occasion Sergeant Hathcock accepted an assignment for which he was plainly told that his odds for survival were slim. A North Vietnamese general was the target, and the man died when a bullet fired by Carlos struck him from a range of 800 yards. Hathcock returned to Hill 55 unscathed. In one incredible incident an enemy sniper was killed after a prolonged game of "cat and mouse" between Carlos, with his spotter, and the NVA sniper. The fatal round, fired at 500 yards by Hathcock, passed directly through the NVA sniper's rifle scope, striking him in the eye. Hathcock would eventually be credited with 93 enemy confirmed killed, including one Viet Cong shot dead by a round fired from a scope-mounted Browning M-2 .50 caliber machine gun at the unbelievable range of 2500 yards. In 1969, during his second tour of duty in Vietnam, Carlos was badly burned while rescuing fellow Marines from a burning Amtrack. The other Marines and Carlos had been riding in the vehicle when it ran over an anti-tank mine. Despite the severity of his wounds it would ultimately be the ravages of Multiple Sclerosis (MS) that would bring Hathcock's extraordinary career to an end. In 1979 he was made to retire on 100% disability due to the advancing stages of the disease. Gunnery Sergeant Hathcock has spent subsequent years instructing police tactical units in "counter-sniper" techniques. In 1990 a book entitled Marine Sniper, by Charles Henderson, was published, documenting the exploits of this one-of-a-kind Marine. Regretfully Carlos has yet to receive a penny of royalties from sales of the book, which has been produced both in hard cover and paper-back. As this brief history is written he is confined to a wheel chair, struggling against the disease which he knows is terminal. Nonetheless he attempts to get to the police rifle range as often as possible. He still loves the crack of the rifles, the smell of gun powder as it drifts across the range, and the company of good men striving to be the best at what they do. The indomitable Carlos N. Hathcock II is indeed one of the "Few and Proud." A man of this character, integrity and skill requires no questions of the same. He is a Marine legend, no less. __________________ "Guess what?! I've got a fever, and the only prescription... is more cowbell!"

05-23-2008, 01:59 AM	#15
sean46953 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Marion, Indiana Posts: 355 Trader Rating: (0)	You know...Even if I didn't respect Carlos, I'd still fear him. If he was alive, I wouldn't doubt a word he said for fear of my own life,so, it only seems fair to never doubt a word he's said even when his time ran out. I say he did it....I would like to see the picture of the gun though...Wonder what the scope looks like, probably useless now. lol __________________ http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/b...00_0535100.jpgSean M. Hartman

05-23-2008, 09:05 AM	#16
SwedeSteve Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: AnchorTown, Alaska Posts: 8,875 Trader Rating: (0)	Definitely a Legend in his own time !! __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers

01-30-2008, 10:46 AM	#3
LarryO1970 "Blazing Saddles" GOV Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johnson Creek, WI Posts: 2,176 Trader Rating: (0)	It was done once... at least that we know about. Modern days, nothing I am aware of. You are correct though, AP rounds and a miracle would be about it... to get through a modern scope to kill the shooter.

01-30-2008, 11:38 AM	#4
Cyrano Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: New York Posts: 1,896 Trader Rating: (0)	Bravo, I believe he did actully 'step on the body.' I remember reading about the incident in a biography of Carlos Hathcock written a couple of years before his death.

05-14-2008, 04:41 PM	#7
mosquitofish Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: So. Calif. Posts: 296 Trader Rating: (0)	DEAD right. I thing it was done the way Carlos said it was done!!

05-16-2008, 01:04 PM	#9
Sargeyork Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 9 Trader Rating: (0)	Snipers in Vietnam couldn't claim a confirmed kill unless someone other than the shooter laid hands on the body or it was witnessed by alot of people, Carlos did it, NO DOUBT, he was a great man.

05-16-2008, 04:29 PM	#10
762x39FMJ Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 22 Trader Rating: (0)	Carlos Hathcock did it and that is a fact. Remember the Mythbusters are not professional snipers and do not have thousands of hours of range time. When this episode came out I Emailed Adam Savage and pointed out some of the mistakes as well as the history of the shot in question. He was real cool and replied to me and was telling me about the second attempt they made. We both agreed it was a million to 1 shot. Let me dig up that Email and I will post it when I do find it. It happened but all the planets and stars were aligned that day, In other words it was pure luck and probably will never be duplicated. He got lucky and it only added to his mystic. Carlos Hathcock is a Marine legend and we as Marines all look up to him. He was a professional and every Marine looked up to him and tried to follow his example of his professionalism.

05-21-2008, 05:59 PM	#13
mudslinging79 Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: oregon, the new california Posts: 30 Trader Rating: (0)	in his book, he did turn in the scoped rifle minus the glass for the obvious reason, but it dissapeared while in the armory, if it even made it in there.