Gray Wolf Hunting

[Idaho Dave]

Originally Posted by Wingwiper

Idaho Dave

I really don't know what you are trying to establish with your YOUTUBE videos wolves dont just attack the weak animals amoung us those elk and dogs were healthy. they dont kill all nice where man's, one bullet, is tourture.
In order for you to call what I said is wrong, you must have some wicked good evidence (as oppoesed to your statements with no evidence) to reinforce your claimsAnd I showed evidence, where was yours, look up that dog evolution chart agian, and a few other things cause my evidence was real yours a story. wolves havent been here 35 million years, their earlist ancestors were, and ancestors of man were here then too, or we wouldnt be.

You can study or you can assume. Your comparisions don't mean a thing they are rather empty (aw facts that counterdict the stuborn usually are.

No! I am not a LIAR, (then you sir are a fool, for sperading someone elses lies like they are facts. the wolves not killing people, and the 35 million years, and the wolves that killl only the weak, and the man being the only animal to ruin it's environment: Because of their practice of tearing vegetation out of the ground, they are destroying their own habitat in some areas. Snow Goose - BirdWeb)you are pretty free with your wrods (free with my words? maybe, just saying what I see) and in so doing lost your credibility with me. I have nothing further to discuss with a young man (I sir am a lot of things, but young isnt one of them) who seems to think that Research (research of what? you regergitated something from a pro wolf site. have you gone into the field and documented any of these said activities? I have at least done that to a degree. If it was your Research that indicated that no one has been kiled by wolves in 500 years you were wrong. If it was your research that showed wolves have been here for 35 millino years you sir, were wrong. If it was that same research that stated wolves kill only the weak and never waste food and dont kill just for kiling you again sir need to look over your research methoods a bit more closely) is Lies and Assumptions (YOU sir made all the assumtions, one of which was that the info on save the pretty wolf.com was real and another that we, or at least I, are dumb enough to just to take your amazing story,heartfelt as it was, as fact becasue you claim to have done research.)Facts. You wouldn't know how to have a Civil Discussion if it hit you square in the face.

I guess that means you wont refute the facts that I pointed out to be untrue in your story. Same old story once you have been stood up to, your done, no opps I guess I did say some stuff I had no idea about. I did show evidence you were either mistaken or lied you. wolves kill people even here you told me to prove it, I did. wolves arent 35 million years old you said it it was untrue. A lie? an error call it what you will sir you never had credibility as your attempt to discredit through diseption was easy to see. Many animals ruin thier habitat it is true. I understand that it is fun and popular to blame man for all the earths woes, I for one find it to be a demonstration in mans foolishness. further I am no young man sir. I showed where to find facts that refute some of what you say and in true form you draw attention to the fact that I am angry and abrupt with your shinanigins. you sir didnt back up what you said. you made assumptions that were wrong I pointed to truth your research of the proud wolf is a lie or an error. they kill people they are only about 2-4 million years old. they kill indescrimatly. and they don not eat all that they kill. Why would I be civil, you assurted things that were very easy to disprove. I have no civility for individuals that propogate lies, errors, or porpoganda that has a direct affect on my life, livelyhood or future of this state.
Say what you will, as I see it was fine for you to quote me initally as though you the wise teacher was going to learn this here readneck bout them wolves.

more facts

Wolf Report - A comprehensive expose of the truth about wolf recovery

[samuel]

See! I said he knew it all and will take care of it! Just as good as the liberal congress. sam. I meant darkwing duck or something like that.A real caretaker.

[roadie]

Idaho Dave, you don't read well do ya, I never said I was anit war, or half the other things you said in your reply...I am not putting myself up on high, all I did was state an opinion and ask a legitimate question. I don't quite know where you were going with most of the things you said, but you are blowing it way out of proportion. Relax my friend, I'm not against you or anyone, I just asked a question...you seem to be very hostile, like your sitting there are your computer all red with anger. I never said anything negative about you personally so why do you bash on me? I will say this, you come across as really narrow minded and stubborn. The things you are saying seem quite ridiculous, bring back small pox, take gambling away from vegas...I mean really. I'm trying to talk to you like a grown up and you just blast away like a kid would...It's a shame you just can't handle someone having a different opinion than you, or God forbid question what you do. You can by all means disagree with me, really, it's ok. But can I not disagree with you? I am in no way trying to tell you how things should be, or how you should think. If you can't see that, then oh well...i tried. Have a nice day and be safe out there.

[Idaho Dave]

Originally Posted by roadie

Idaho Dave, you don't read well do ya, I never said I was anit war, or half the other things you said in your reply...I am not putting myself up on high, all I did was state an opinion and ask a legitimate question. I don't quite know where you were going with most of the things you said, but you are blowing it way out of proportion. Relax my friend, I'm not against you or anyone, I just asked a question...you seem to be very hostile, like your sitting there are your computer all red with anger. I never said anything negative about you personally so why do you bash on me? I will say this, you come across as really narrow minded and stubborn. The things you are saying seem quite ridiculous, bring back small pox, take gambling away from vegas...I mean really. I'm trying to talk to you like a grown up and you just blast away like a kid would...It's a shame you just can't handle someone having a different opinion than you, or God forbid question what you do. You can by all means disagree with me, really, it's ok. But can I not disagree with you? I am in no way trying to tell you how things should be, or how you should think. If you can't see that, then oh well...i tried. Have a nice day and be safe out there.

Just a little quote from some reading I was doing As University of Wyoming geography professor James Thompson (1993:165) recently noted, "wolf recovery is [only] a ‘stalking horse’ for the larger issue of land use change." Even environmentalists have admitted that "on the deepest level the issue of…wolf recovery is not about wolves. [Instead] it is about control of the west" (Askins 1993:5). Simply put, environmentalists are using wolf recovery and the Endangered Species Act to run ranchers out of the country and to thwart multiple use of public lands. It is also a way for animal-rights and antihunting groups to ban all hunting and use of wildlife. Is this what Congress had in mind when it passed the Endangered Species Act? There is no evidence to even remotely suggest that it is.
Anyway
Look I am sorry. Most of the folks round here that would use such a falacious attack like "go to war cause you dont agree with me" to try and intimodate or shame someone, regardless of the validity of thier real argumant, and then act shocked by such a response are pretty much the anti war type. my point, the basis of my anger is they are in my yard, in the fields where my animals are, where my kids play. at the bus stop there have been tracks. but you find it rediculous to say if my will was forced on you in vegas but I dont at all. People from here go there and lose money so it must be wrong and be stopped. Dont you get it, we didnt want them here no one. We were given no vote in the matter(hey they used to live everywhere so why not in your town?) we tried court actions, we didnt have a choice. The federal goverment imposed the will of people who dont live here on us all. my comparisons are only rediculous to you becasue your not in my shoes. Maybe when they come take your guns you will see what it is to have the will of a few someplace far away that dont really know what they are saying thrust upon you, forced upon you and you have no say, no recourse. they dont really pay you for lost livestock that is is a fantasy full of more redtape then you would think and if there is a track of anything else, i mean anything, a crow, egales, hawks, yote, foxes, you name it, they say well who is to say what killed your animal. then if one turns up dead here they come, not jsut the feds but some freaking law team hired by some group or another. I will be honest with you I am too afraid to shoot them now, even if they were attacking my family, I would of course, but I would never tell a soul. And I have seen them killing livestock and elk and just watched. I have seen the way the agents came into ranches in the county next to ours and took all the guns in several homes for ballistics because one was found dead. I heard of a guy that was arrested and his home ransaked becasue some pony tailers saw him shooting a yote from the side of the road and reported it as a wolf killing. took weeks to straighten out and he was never compensated for his time, bail and embarassment for doing a legal activity that he was licensed to do. I dont hate them, I have watched them lots of times. but they really really did well. it is high time we make a way to control them before we do hate them. there are more then 1200 here in our state I am sure of it. and they are brave, we dont even have that many girzzlies. they are killing our livestock and the other animals at an alarming rate. Hundreds of elk a year, hundreds. they eat the little ones i have seen. You think I am angery well I am a little. I hope we do get to hunt them. I hope we can keep the population at a level where they will be a long term, renwable resource for us. And they will be a little more nervous about coming in contact with man. I think they should give frist draw to those of us who live in the area where there have been lots of incursions and sightings. but yeah when someone says "I dont want an argumsnt but I am about to make a big judgement call on other" or "here comes the savethewolves.com talking points" yeah I guess I have a little sore spot. And if you find my anger at the bad taste in my mouth a little anoying, I appologize as best I can. you just need to have some one telling you that something dangerous can be in your town and you have to live with it or leave.

[Wingwiper]

Idaho Dave

You need to get your head unburied from your butt end.

I am not a member of any group, I am not relaying any quotes from Save the Wolf or any other organization, I am a man of my own thoughts and opinions. I do not have a pony tail nor am I liar.

You see a Wolf and suddenly you are an expert on Wolves and you think Man has the Right away. Killing at an Alarming rate, my a$$, I guess the Wolves in your area are different from all other Wolves and because ole Idaho Dave says they are bad, then by the Jesu$ they have to be bad. If you hate them so damn much why don't you MOVE? Why did you pick to live where you did? If you can't get a long with your enviroment you are more of the problem than the Wolf is. If people like you had their way, it would be wasted land from over grazing and your profits would be protected. Why can't all Businesses have the same guarantees and protections that you think you deserve? Maybe your acerage is too large and you have no control, maybe you should think smaller where you would have the control you feel you are so entitled to. People live with floods, hurricanes, tornados, fires, earthquakes, droughts, snow, wind and YES! nature but you want nature to be erased, so you won't have to worry about it, atta boy Dave, why stop with just the Wolf, why not kill off the Mountain Lions, Bears, and the Buffalo and Elk who graze the same land that your livestock do? Why not get rid of all of nature so Dave can be content and happy?

ONE possible Human kill in 500 years Dave and you call that a threat? Oh! I see, they kill your unattended livestock? Guess you will have to find another way to protect your profits. Worried about kids at the Bus stops? Why Dave, there haven't been any attacks so why are you worried, aren't Tigers in Zoos more dangerous than Wolves? Hell! for that matter Pitbulls and Rotties have killed more humans in the last 10 years than wolves have in the last 1000 years.

You have a hate for the Wolf, that I do not care to share and I do not share your opinions and take the time to read your research before you call anyone a liar. It may give you a bit more credibility.

[Idaho Dave]

Originally Posted by Wingwiper

Idaho Dave

You need to get your head unburied from your butt end. Let's see I'll try

I am not a member of any group, I am not relaying any quotes from Save the Wolf or any other organization, I am a man of my own thoughts and opinions. I do not have a pony tail nor am I liar. Then why is it that you misrepresent facts? as truth and when presented with evidence to demonstrate it you attack the presenter knowing full well that you have been caught

You see a Wolf and suddenly you are an expert on Wolves (and you read a web site and suddenly you are an expert bla bla bla. how many have you seen in the wild) and you think Man has the Right away. Killing at an Alarming rate, my a$$, I guess the Wolves in your area are different from all other Wolves and because ole Idaho Dave says they are bad (look he showed my facts were made up and wrong lets get him), then by the Jesu$ they have to be bad (and cuse the genius wingwhinner says they aint they must be good he done his research. It was worng though but oh well lets bring back the TRex and let him take back his place). If you hate them so damn much why don't you MOVE? Why did you pick to live where you did?They brought them here after we were here If you can't get a long with your enviroment you are more of the problem than the Wolf is (or I change ti to suite my needs). If people like you had their way, it would be wasted land from over grazing and your profits would be protected yet another lie or error People like me live off the land and I never sell any of my meat we run a few head of cattle, chickens and horses that we use to trade for goods and services, and I have me real job that I drive an hour to every other day and make a handsome amount and there is no need to sell my harvest. we are the real conservationist protecting our land from the rampent development going on all around us by greed driven individiuals making country getaways, ski resorts and dude ranches for rich people). Why can't all Businesses have the same guarantees and protections that you think you deserve? My business does I deal with crazies and there are plenty uhum... Maybe your acerage is too large and you have no control, maybe you should think smaller Ah the truth comes out. No one should have my land cause only the rich should beable to live out here in gods country. I get that a lot but your barking up the wrong tree. I am pretty much doing fine. but if you, of course not belonging to any group, want a real cause for you and your freinds to champion I will tell you where they are building a huge mountain get away that is gated and only the rich will be allowed in. they bought up land and are really ruining a beautiful mountain top and canyon. Once we start hunting the wolves perhaps ou could take on that and fixer up it disgusts me in honest I have considered driving by the no tresspassing signs and spraying ELF on them. where you would have the control you feel you are so entitled to. People live with floods, hurricanes, tornados, fires, earthquakes, droughts, snow, wind and YES! nature(so when dont build any leveys or install anti earthquake messures in your home but you want nature to be erased, No another lie read what i said I want it managed so that there is a harvestable population and a means to control it. If you dont I suggest you get off your ass and move to the amazon river basin and go to town. you can only make all your judgements and do all your research because you are taking advantage of mankind managing nature all around you hey those wolves were all over the us I want them reintroduced to your neighborhood. Now put that mouse down and get going. I live way closer to nature then you would imagine so you won't have to worry about it, atta boy Dave, why stop with just the Wolf, why not kill off the Mountain Lions (we hunt them according to the law, there are plenty, I have posted pics and have harvested them and even eaten them), Bears (we hunt them, numbers are going up accourding to fish and game, we eat them too, they are not indanger), and the Buffalo dont have them here and Elk We hunt them, take one or two a year and eat off them all winter. They come on our land and we let them eat all they want, there are lots but they are getting eaten by those wolves. course they dont kill the dog, calves, sheep and leave the dead rotting bodies lay across the land. who graze the same land that your livestock do? Why not get rid of all of nature so Dave can be content and happy?

ONE NO two on in the 1850's one a couple years ago stop trying cant you see I will look it up. possible Human kill in 500 years Dave and you call that a threat? And the idaho fish and game say thousands of elk Oh! Oh elk dont matter to you i see I see, they kill your unattended livestock? Two out of about 14 Guess you will have to find another way to protect your profits. I have a masters degree that I have actually posted before to prove a point. I make plenty of money with my job, though I only work about 3 days a week Worried about kids at the Bus stops? Why Dave, there haven't been any attacks so why are you worried, aren't Tigers in Zoos more dangerous than Wolves?did you get that from another anti hunting site? Hell! for that matter Pitbulls and Rotties have killed more humans in the last 10 years than wolves have in the last 1000 years. Sir that again is another of your stretches of reality that you assume as you know you have no way of proving yet I will stand tall against your foolishness and say prove it

You have a hate for the Wolf, that I do not care to share and I do not share your opinions and take the time to read your research before you call anyone a liar. It may give you a bit more credibility when people lie you should call them on it and show proof. that is all i did many websites and I have more right from the idaho, wyoming and montana fish and game where they are really doing research. In other words your foolish unsupported psudo talking point facts were challenged and found to be in error. so in the true pony tailer style you assume the worst you think you can for your precived audiance, and then attack the messanger. what about addmiting you lied or were just wrong about no wolf deaths, the wolves only hunting the sick, the 35 millino year old wolves and the man the only animal to destroy habitat? What about addmiting that your research was just reading off the internet from what ever site popped up when you googled wolves are nice? as I said before, we will hunt them, we will have a manageable plan and quotas will be taken just like all other sustanable, renweable resources and in a thousand years you sir will be just as valuable an asset as you are now as will I and the great wolf, champion of the down troden. My only sadness is that unless you come to see them you probably will never have to worry about being eaten by them. what a strange world you must inhabit, where man is the enemy and savior of nature, in my oppinion this ardent hatered of man is part of what is worng with this country.

And still you dont get the point. The point is the big fedreral goverment is forcing its self on us with no recourse for us. Here let me put it a little more ponytail freindly. George W, dick channey and there big oil friends are making us submit to wolves running around are homes, animals, and families. then they's saying that we's cant do nothing bout it cause they are endangerd here, but not in canada, or alaska, or russia,or lots of other places. my god I need a new hobby i wish this snow woudl melt so i could go out more.

[killer]

The trapper/rancher that wrote the story I posted is 87 years old now. He is on a National Geographic special made around 1986 about wolves and the 1st words out of his mouth were, "I kill every wolf I see."

I just about choked on what I was drinking when I saw it. He disagreed with the wolves' protection status in the 70's and it was rumored he would nail their carcass on the telephone poles leading out to his property. The State would routinely fly over his house in small planes watching his activity. He was never caught for the alleged activity. When questioned his response was simply, "My parents had the same problem with the wolf, if we do nothing they run roughshod over us." They raised beef cattle.

He said when the 1st snowmobiles hit the woods the wolf would not cross the trails and would walk alongside the trails for miles. Now of course they walk right on top. He stated wolves were also somewhat reluctant to walk under a barb wire fence too but they would at times...esp. for cattle. The biggest wolf he ever got in 50 plus years weighed 110 pounds. It had been 'accidentally' caught in a coyote set leg hold trap.

He thought the wolf was much smarter than the coyote when it came to leg hold traps. Snares were the wolves’ downfall though.

The old trapper/rancher never felt wolf were much different than a weasel in his chicken coop. Just needed to be thinned back now and then. He had for many years tried using big domestic dogs to help protect his property but they didn't stop all the attacks. The big dogs would chase the wolf but the wolf always had time on his side to wait them out. One day the trapper/rancher saw his dog’s way down in the pasture with something on the ground. He jumped on the tractor with a gun and found his two dogs eating a freshly killed calf. He shot them on the spot and dragged them in. When he went back to drag the calf in he found a black wolf on the calf (but he had left his gun), apparently the black wolf had been the original killer, his dogs simply heard the commotion and helped themselves to the calf.

The old trapper/rancher sold his cattle and moved into town now. So ends his fight with them. He never eradicated them, they were always plentiful.

I've had no monetary loss from them but I would like to hunt one as a trophy and get a full body mount. Too me they are like the coyote and fox.

[Idaho Dave]

Originally Posted by killer

I've had no monetary loss from them but I would like to hunt one as a trophy and get a full body mount. Too me they are like the coyote and fox.

Tell you what Killer we get a hunt going you put in for one and draw out and you got a place to stay, good home cooking and an eager guide and I mean it. even at 500 bucks it is cheaper then going to alaska

[lefty o]

i dont think wolves are bad, but their population has exploded in areas. i think hunting is a great way to control the population, no need for an outright slaughter. now as for wolves not killing for sport, thats a bunch of BS. when i was younder i bowhunted deer in northwest MN on a relatives farm. ive seen the kills with my own 2 eyes. they werent burried to come back and eat later, they were slaughtered for sport by wolves. i never saw wolf back then, but was given very clear instructions to kil them if the chance arose, as the wolves were killing 3 or 4 head of livestock at a time. then they would dissapear for a few months before returning and killing more.

deer populations in MN and wisc are large because of management, it has nothing to do with having a wolf population. 30+ yrs of very restricted doe hunting will cause you to have a large deer population.
i hunt for sport, not because i have to. no one here has to kill their own food.

[aht_six]

Originally Posted by Wingwiper

....If you researched and found more than one human to have been killed by North American Wolves in the last 500 years, please share your resources, I am afraid you can not produce it...

There have been several reports of humans being killed by wolves in North America over the last 500 years, here is one attributed to John James Audubon.

Noted naturalists documented wolf attacks on humans. John James Audubon, of whom the Audubon Society is named, reported an attack involving 2 Negroes. He records that the men were traveling through a part of Kentucky near the Ohio border in winter. Due to the wild animals in the area the men carried axes on their shoulders as a precaution. While traveling through a heavily forested area, they were attacked by a pack of wolves. Using their axes, they attempted to fight off the wolves. Both men were knocked to the ground and severely wounded. One man was killed. The other dropped his axe and escaped up a tree. There he spent the night. The next morning the man climbed down from the tree. The bones of his friend lay scattered on the snow. Three wolves lay dead. He gathered up the axes and returned home with the news of the event. This incident occurred about 1830. (Audubon, J.J., and Bachman, J.; The Quadrupeds of North America, 3 volumes. New York, 1851 - 1854)

[ArkansasHunter]

roadie I agree with you for the most part, but if numbers of Wolfs are high and in need of reduction I have know problem at all with a controled harvest and I'm sure you don't either.
I haven't taken the time to read all the posts because I'll assume there like others I've read here when some one voices a concern such as yours. Take heart your not alone.
I've found though most States Game and Fish Commishion make pretty sound desisions most of the time in setting seasons on game and the numbers to be harvested.
Thank you for careing...A.H

[killer]

Originally Posted by Idaho Dave

Tell you what Killer we get a hunt going you put in for one and draw out and you got a place to stay, good home cooking and an eager guide and I mean it. even at 500 bucks it is cheaper then going to alaska

I'll be watching the news and wishing the people of Idaho the power to run their State as they see fit.

Minnesota has pretty much always been a "blue" State and only yesterday our leaders passed the largest tax hike in our history.

Wolves will always be protected here...they've been walking the halls of the State Capitol in suits for decades with nothing to fear.

[Ferroflame]

Stop fighting, please.

>_>

[Mooseman684]

I live in one of the Wolf Control areas of Alaska...Hungry wolves are predators and will eat anything and everything and man is the Only enemy they have...My hunting party of 4 was attacked in the Wrangell-St. Elias National Park. The Wolf pack split up and went after 2 of my buddies in their Moose Blinds...They killed 3 of the leaders 2 big males and a Female , and the pack changed their mind...I was 400 yards upstream when the shooting started,and the pack went across the river and disappeared before I could get a shot...We saw them Eat all the game animals to the 7000 ft. level,moose, rabbits, Dall sheep, EVERYTHING, before leaving the area for lack of Game to eat...We found Piles of shredded bones and fur everywhere we hunted. 1000 wolves eat around 40,000 caribou a year, plus lots of other animals...Our Moose population is Endangered because of the wolf and Grizzly Population here in Unit 13...some of our hunts have been cancelled because of the wolves eating all the Calfs.... Alaska Fish and Game allows aerial wolf hunting here, land and shoot, done by private citizens to help control the population. We don't want them extinct, just controlled to a level that allows our Meat animals to recover population wise. Grizzly is now open year round, 1 bear per year for Residents...They too have No enemy other than man.
The Wolf poulation is so large near Anchorage, people have had their pets killed while walking them on trails in town...It is Ridiculous. We don't eat em, but the hides are worth 300 to 500 dollars...
Alaska passed a law that No Full blooded Domesticated Wolves can be able to reproduce...they must be sterilized...Due to the likelyhood of reverting to wild behaviour if they escape captivity....It has happened.
In the past 50 years 17( may be 18 now) people have been killed by wolves mainly in Russia and Europe...some carried rabies and attacked because of that...It is all recorded. Any wolf lovers are welcome to come get some of ours and take them home . We have a large surplus. As for me, I will shoot every one I see and figure I just saved the lives of many moose and Caribou...In Alaska, wolf populations number 5,900 to 7,200 and are not considered endangered or threatened.
Child lifting occurs in India and is sporadically reported in Indian newspapers. Child lifting is colloquial for when a wolf takes and kills small children. For example in 1996 a wolf was reported to have killed dozens of small children from about 50 villages in Uttar Pradesh, central north India (Jhala et al 1997).

Idaho Dave and I know what we are talking about...we live with the eating machines Canis Lupus !
Rich
( and I dont give a damn if you dont agree with me ! I speak the truth)

[roadie]

Ok, last time and if certain folks don't get it then they must be the most ignorant ninnies in the country and I'll be done with it. Remember kids, this is only my opinion.

1. It's a shame that certain species of any animal need to be killed to control their population, since it is humans that have upset the balance that nature has put forth, by us taking over their living space.

2. Population control is an unfortunate but necessary action that can be beneficial to not only humans and what they hold dear (family/crops/livestock) but also the animal; giving it the right numbers so that it's natural food source doesn't run out.

3.Killing something just because you don't like it, or because there is a pleasure in taking a life...well to me that's an adverse psychological condition that should be treated.

4. Killing something because it poses a threat to you, your family, your crops, your livestock, your neighbors, that ugly bush in the backyard that you hate but the wife likes because it has pink flowers in the spring....well, now that's a different story. Do what you gotta do, protect your property and goods and family, of course, no question about it.

5. Government stopping someone from killing an animal that is to be protected so that it won't go extinct, yes I agree with that. Wolves and other predators may be bad in our eyes, but there are here for a reason, they control the populations of other creatures. I'm no scientist, but there is usually a good reason for something to exist, so why should we snuff it out just cause we don't like em'. But, if uncle sam says no, and there is an animal attacking your property...do what you need to do, and keep yer mouth shut.

Idaho Dave, these are only my opinions, you don't have to agree with me, I am man enough to say that maybe I'm wrong, but maybe I'm right...either way, it's how I see it and that's my right. You can see it however you like. Thank you for an invigorating discussion.

[Idaho Dave]

I appreciate youre candor and your statements, again maybe I am an ignorant ninny, but my point intially was land use rights by private citizens in this country, and the voices of a few from another state guiding policy here. But oh well, one more try for me about the hunting wolves. Basically this is what I see.

1. humans are animals just like the wolves and as such act to our nature just as any other preditor. We are part of the cycle, not godlike interlopers whos actions are above and beyond it. we do not upset the balance, we are but a piece of the balance. it is man's self importance that leads him to think he understands the balance at all. There was a big meteor one time that was part of the balance too and it made way for you and me to be here. fourtuantly, the dinasours couldnt figure out how to stop it.
2. Nature is not: fair, pretty, nice, just, nor emotionally driven. Preditors kill, it is thier nature. most humans have tried to remove themselves from this formula by paying others to do the dirty work that man, in his great wisdom, has decided is unfair, ugly, mean, or emotionally too difficult.
3. Death and killing are part of nature. They are population control, that is how it works. it happens a million times a day from the north pole to the antartic. all forms of animal die and in the wild it is not steril and comforting like man has tried to make it. death of an animal on our planet, happening daily, is a violent act where one beast exerts its strenght and dominace over another, hitting, scratching, clawing, bitting, crushing and killing it, sometimes they just swollow eachother whole and the living creature is digested alive. there are no white sheets, there is no nurse with a shot of fentanol to make it nicer. creatures suffer, terribly, most of them being consumed or partly consumed while still alive. Man on the other hand, even those who hunt for sport and fun, tend to do thier killing the quickest way we can. Men, unlike wolves, lions, bears and other preditors, see something in the eyes of the creatures we kill that makes it hard to watch it suffer. We hear something in thier cries of pain that make us sick and sad. Wolves dont, lions dont, bears dont, nothing else does, just the men that so many want to lable as, and it has become so popular to call psychopathic killers.
4. When animals act to thier nature and kill other animals and eachother they are not being evil. they are not psychologically messed up, they are doing what they do as part of the world. When man hunts and kills he is not deranged, he is not evil, he is doing what is truely natural to him. evolution has provided us with minds that work they way other hunting animals do. we have the same instincts to hunt and kill. that includes things we dont eat but are just afraid of or bother us. that is why you step on the spider in the bathroom on the floor and dont eat it. that is why you dont pull down the fly strip on the pourch and make soup. It is not evil, it is not wrong it is our nature. some can try to change themselves, ignore those instictual feelings and be different but that isnt natural. and that doesnt put them at a hire place to judge those who dont.
5. Man is an animal that has a part in the food chain and the great circle of life. even if you are paying some one else to do it, each day animals die in order to make your tummy full, dress you, provided things you need or want to make your life easier. Hiding behind the idea that just because you didnt do the killing is just mankinds way of shifting responsibility to let them have that warm fuzzy feeling. and in my oppinion that is a place where respect for animals is lost, the last time you ate at Mcdonalds did you thank your maker for the animal you injested? The last time you pulled on your boots or tightened your belt were you thinking of the cow that gave its life for you? As I ate my breakfast of home cooked eggs from our chickens and venison sausage I talked at length with my son about the deer he killed to make the meat. He was proud about shooting it in the neck and dropping it dead in its tracks so he could help feed the family. I guess I am making him psychologically unstable too.
6. Regardless how anyone wants to make it sound foollish or incorrect, choosing to let one animal or plant species be killed for food, controled by hunting, killing or vaccinations, by abatement programs or fly swatters, and saying that it is wrong or evil to do it to another, is a practice in judgemntal discrimination. For it is at that point when you are insinuating one form of life is above another as far as it's value is concerned. that is when man judges that because he thinks the wolf is pretty but the teetsee fly is ugly and makes him sick the wolf should be here and the fly gone. that kind of rational negates all the "every species has a place" argument.
7. This is the truth. People kill. they will continue to. some of us myself as well as you, though we come at it from a different angel, would like to see life forms protected on this planet so that they are there for some of us to hunt and others to look at or just know they are out there. some animals will be driven to extiction by man, some have been, more will. other animals have been responsible for causing extinctions over the 6 billion years or so. and in the future more will. in a blink of an eye man will be gone from here, as will the wolf, the elk the deer and all creatures here. We will do what nature has planned for us and become extinct just like all other species will. that will make way for differing life forms here on earth. Should, a million years from now, another speices become unique in its intelligence and dig up our fossilized remains they will say there is homo sapian sapian. It was a top level omnivours preditor that had ingenious ways of manipulating its envornment to servive. they will not say these evil people hunted animals for fun. this is not bad, it is not sad. No species was ment to be here for ever. it is just the way it is.

lastly let me once again say. I dont hate the wolves, I want to hunt them. If kept in check, they are a good renwable resource. but just like all other animals they need to be managed not just given a free hand at the world. Man has been managed by animals in the past and someday man will be managed again, if not by war, or desiese then by goverments or some catastrophic natural event that we will undoubtable see coming but not beable to prevent. For the wolves, I felt the reintroduction was done on the basis of lies. Wolves are not endangered. there is a couple kinds of fish that whe have here that only live here. if we catch them we are sure to carefully put them back and brag of having done it, they are endangerd. Much is said of the wolve being a proud majestic animal. That they maybe. Believe me when I say this if you see them in the wild it stirs something in your soul, something wild that I get a chance to experince alot when I see wolves, bears, lions or tracks, elk and all gods bounty. It also makes the hair on the back of your neck stand on end and you feel for our gun, or bow, or stick or rock. that there be instict not irrational fear crated by fariy tales. And the propogation of the idea that they are careful hunters that only kill what they need, kill only the weak and old and would never harm man is a lie. A big, fib of a lie that at least is dangerous to some who may one day come in contact with them and may, too late, find out that they are programed to chase hunt and bite. and at worst is a lie that could lead to private citizens loosing thier rights to thier land and other public land activites. And in my opinion, the lie that man is some how evil for engaging in his part of the natural order is dangerous too.

again these too are only my opinions as yours were yours.

[Wingwiper]

Idaho Dave

You have not proven a thing to me, nor have you misproved the facts I posted. You spewed your discontent for the Wolf and that is all you did. You voiced an opinion and an opinion is not enough to discredit facts. sorry.

FACT: There is NO DOCUMENTED killing of a human by a North American wolf in all of North America for the last 500 years.

FACT: The man killed in Canada near a lake has not been proven beyond a doubt he was killed by Wolves. There is strong speculation that he was, but no factual evidence other than foot prints. Several reports initially reported it was bears that got him. So I will give you that one. ONE HUMAN KILLED in 500 years in all of North America.

As far as 3 negroes and the so-called diary entry from John James Audaboun, sorry! that is NOT documented. It is heresay and may have been exaggerations by the negroes when the story was retold.

Mooseman:

I do not doubt that Wolves attack humans, there are several cases per year of just that. Kinda like dogs attacking mail men. Whether the wolves are attacking to get the beef jerky in their pockets, or whatever, no one knows, fact still remains there is NO DOCUMENTED killings of humans by wolves in all of North America for the last 500 years.

I do not see the justification in killing of wolves because one or two people don't like them. People have the privelege of moving at will, wolves are stuck with what they have.

As far as killing for no reason, I would challenge that. All that I have read over the years says they kill to eat and they are not pleasure killers. No wildlife is in danger because of Wolves, that is pure B.S. wolves have been on this planet in one form or another for 35 million years, (before you jump Idaho I used 2 million for man too, I know about the evolution process) if they were ruthless killers you would not see any wildlife in the areas of the wolves and in the 35 million years they have been here, you wouldn't have much wildlife left. What you see and what you all think you see, could be two different things. I never said they buried the carcass, in frozen ground areas, they leave the carcass where it lays and return to the frozen carcass later to feed. I have no knowledge of wolves killing for thrills, I would love to see documentation on that claim. Sorry, I do not take your word for it, you saw something and as I said what you saw could have been translated differently from what was happening.
I know I am probably talking to deaf ears, but why don't you all watch the Documentary on the Sawtooth Mountain Wolves, by a couple (Dutchers) who lived with a pack for 6 years. The doc is entitled "LIVING WITH WOLVES" You think they would know something or would they be just a blabbers? I think if you watched and listened to what they had to say, you would be very much enlightened. Right there in Idaho they studied and lived with them for 6 years. I think if anyone would be the real EXPERTs on Wolves, the Dutchers would be.
You can rent it from Netflix or Blockbuster. If you don't like watching Docs, then read the books.
What some of you are saying is just abosolutely against the grain of the Wolf. I know up here many can't tell the difference betwen a Coyote and a Wolf and some have a hard time knowing the difference from an Alaskan Malamute.

Native Americans lived in harmony with Wolves, repsected the wolves and they were great hunters, far better than any of us will ever be. Why is it, that it is Modern Man who finds fault with his enviroment and wants all these changes?

My answer to the Ranchers, get smaller ranches, or learn that is the cost of doing business.

Idaho, I have hunted all of my life, don't think for a moment, because I disagree with you I am some jerk who has never hunted or been in the woods.

Iraho, you also said

Death and killing are part of nature.

I think that is exactly what I have been trying to tell you. Wolves hunt and maybe you aren't thrilled to watch them kill, you would probably vomit to watch a Croc or Bear hunt and feed. Nature is Nature, live with her.

[Idaho Dave]

death is part of nature we are nature to be critical of our behavior andnot the wolf is a demonstration of prejudice.

I dont just make these things up. And because you chose to not read my evidence that sir is most of my point about the assumed self importance of mankind by the way here is a lot of evidence and references regarding surplus killing you claim never hapens. I took most of it from pro wolf sources to soften the blow.


So prove woves do surplus killing hu? Okay here you go. wolves surplus killing is even discused by pro wolf studies and posted on the pro wolf web site (of course then they try to negate it) Eleven years with wolves in Idaho- what we've learned

here they assert that "while "surplus killing, the killing of more game then can be consumed, has been documented these incidnets ussual occur under unusual cirumstances such as extremely deep snow conditions that severly severly disadvantage prey" [or birthing times]

Not my research someone elses in fact that is from one of the fish and game in idaho that like the wolves.

another pro wolf site (really look it is on the wolf trust site Wolf Trust - Wolf Depredation - Surplus Killing ) says "Rare incidents of surplus killing by wolves in Minnesota are reported to leave up to 35 sheep killed and injured in flocks and losses of 50 to 200 birds in turkey flocks (Paul et al 1994)." though they try to insert modifiers such as rare and telling how other animals beneift it is real and it happens

Surplus killing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia wiki worthless states it as over killing by preditors including the wolf.

and here Surplus Killing of White-Tailed Deer by Wolves in Northcentral Minnesota
Glenn D. DelGiudice
Journal of Mammalogy, Vol. 79, No. 1 (Feb., 1998), pp. 227-235
doi:10.2307/1382858
This article consists of 9 page(s).

and here

Surplus-Killing of Reindeer by Wolves
Anders Bjarvall, Edvin Nilsson
Journal of Mammalogy, Vol. 57, No. 3 (Aug., 1976), p. 585
doi:10.2307/1379310
This article consists of 1 page(s).

IN the book Wolves: Behavior, ecology and conservation by David Mech and Luigi Boitani Page 128 there is an entire section of wolf surplus killings "when wolves kill more then they can eat it is called surplus killing. Surplus killing occurs when prey are both abundant and voulnrable" [or birthing times] look here it is


Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and ... - Google Book Search


Look you can say what you want you said stuff that wasnt true. wolves aren endangered they arent killers of only sick and weak, they dont eat all they kill, they arent afraid of man and they will attack and hunt them given a chance (and I dont even care about that I hope they do weed out the suplus population), they havent beenon the earth for 35 million years any more then we have. they arent into "fair chase" they are into chasing and biting. even if they just ate. I know that you refuse to look at my sources but I put them here for others so that they can see. And come on, do you think that the first men to contact wolves (as there are no native american homo sapians) didnt have conflicts? Of course they did that is where all those fair tails from europe came from. theat was their "primative life" with them. Hey they are cool I admited that they are killers and kill what they catch and chase what they can. I just want reasonable people to stop acting like they are the nieghbors domesticated sheep dog. they are not. and let our state hunt them as we find it necessary to control the poulation ensuring the servival of all species involed. I am sorry I just cant roll over and let people say what ever teh heck they want I wanst raised that way and I (similarly to the wolf over killing) have a lot of spare time on my hands.

[aht_six]

Originally Posted by Wingwiper

.
...I know I am probably talking to deaf ears, but why don't you all watch the Documentary on the Sawtooth Mountain Wolves, by a couple (Dutchers) who lived with a pack for 6 years. The doc is entitled "LIVING WITH WOLVES" You think they would know something or would they be just a blabbers? I think if you watched and listened to what they had to say, you would be very much enlightened...

The Dutchers Sawtooth Mountain Wolves were hand raised by humans and they live inside a fence. I've seen their documentary and while interesting these are captive wolves.

[Idaho Dave]

Originally Posted by aht_six

The Dutchers Sawtooth Mountain Wolves were hand raised by humans and they live inside a fence. I've seen their documentary and while interesting these are captive wolves.

good try six, you sir are absolutly right and here is a quote from a documanted article about the publicity stunt and a link to look for yourselves

A publicity tour for their new documentary
brought naturalists and filmmakers Jim and
Jamie Dutcher to Lake Forest this past November.
In a series of talks with Open
Lands supporters, they shared the
story of their six-year undertaking
documenting the behavior — in
sound and images — of the pack of

wolves they raised from pups.
http://www.lfola.org/client_uploads/GR_Spring_2006.pdf
there was also a few sites including one by a fellow with national geo that sort of refuted the claims that the dutches worked with wild wolves. further one of the animal officers states in the comments (cant be proven it was really him though he freely gives his name) that others spent most of the time with wolves and teh dutches involvment was some what limited. due to the fact that it isnt imperical evidence I didnt include it as it is unproven easy to find though just browse for Dutchers Sawtooth Mountain Wolves hand raised and scan down.
here too is an ad for thier traveling show (making money now. see you later wolves. hey but we still live with ours) at where else but the california accadamy of science.
TUESDAY, MARCH 21
Living with Wolves
Lecture by Jim and Jamie Dutcher
Jim and Jamie Dutcher spent six years living with and filming a pack of wolves in Idaho ’s Sawtooth Mountains , a remote area recently repopulated by wolves. To film these shy and elusive creatures in their most relaxed state, the Dutchers bottle-fed and raised the offspring of captive wolves in the wild, creating a pack that trusted them. In this lecture, the Dutchers blend rare and exciting film footage and photographs with inspiring anecdotes about how their experiences have led them to develop a keen understanding of the role of wolves in the ecosystem. 2 pm & 7:30 pm ; free for members, $8 non-members; California Academy of Sciences , 875 Howard Street , San Francisco . Purchase tickets by calling (415) 321-8000 or at the door, when available.
a link to the site
California Academy of Sciences - Newsroom
as for wingwhipper is inlightened we are not, he has done his research and there will be no changing his mind. but hopefully a few people out there who read these posts will look up some of the data and get it. the wolves were had raised so they would accept humans as members of the pack. I dont think the truely wild ones would feel the same way but once again I am sure I am wrong and will be told so.