shooting basics

[DWFan]

After some other forums I have visited and trips to the range, I have to ask this. Who is teaching new shooters to stand with their shoulders square to a target in a combat situation? More and more I see this stance that presents the maximum amount of vulnerable body area to the assailant, almost insuring a disabling injury even if the antagonist simply gets off a lucky shot. I look in amazement at the shooter that holds his pistol sideways at face level, not realizing center mass is completely exposed.
Whatever happened to defensive shooting stances? I would hope that I never get into a shootout with anyone, but the best I could ever hope for would be someone that stands square shoulder facing me and giving me the the ideal target.

[Windwalker]

Take advantage of any break you get.

[Jersey Jailer]

The last I heard...The Feds went back to isocoles from Weaver this was because its a "stonger" platform for smaller statured shooters. That was about ten years ago. Not that I don't agree with you

You gotta realize they are training lawyers and Accountants to be Cops.

[Mike Franklin]

This may be in part because lots of Body Armour is open on the sides. When Texas State Trooper Norman Zator was shot in Galveston County Texas about 34 years ago, he was shot side to side under his right arm if I remember correctly. There have been changes in equipment and training over the years most of which was to accomodate the smaller female Officers.

[Wingwiper]

Mike

You are right, the body armor without and insert has no protection under the arm and the vitals are exposed thru that opening.

I teach shooters to line their shoulders to the target for the best skeletal position in Off Hand. When in combat once you know how to shoot and you know the basics, MODIFIED positions, depending on cover and protection will most certainly over rule what is best in a Match situation. Soldiers are taught to expose themselves as little as possible and they know this, but there is too many variables when you are advancing or defending and the cover varies. Body armor with inserts weigh in much heavier and most choose not to have them. In Vietnam most of us chose not to wear the Flak Vests at all because of their God awful weight.

DW some may have forgotten the basics but when under fire, the brain switches to an aggressive or in some cases a defensive survival mode. All the training in the world is great if it is instinctive and the soldier doesn't need to spend that extra millisecond thinking about it. To create that instinctive mode takes many many weeks of repetitive training. Unfortunately there are other things that need to be taught as well and the time factor isn't always available.

[wunhunglo]

There was a very good reason for the old duelling position with the body almost side on. Harder to hit, and if both missed face was saved and they could retire to the bar and talk things over.

[chewy4480]

In the Army they teach us to square off on the target so that our body armor takes the hits. Also it is steadier while your moving.

[wunhunglo]

Originally Posted by chewy4480

In the Army they teach us to square off on the target so that our body armor takes the hits. Also it is steadier while your moving.

In my day we didn't have such a thing as body armour and we were told to keep our heads down & shoot & scoot.

[DWFan]

I'm not an instructor; far from it. I have never been a competitive shooter, except for a brief dabble in silhouette. The only people I have ever taught to shoot handguns are my wife and son, but as soon as they were familiar with the weapon, I taught them to stand profile to the target, (or pivoting the strong-side foot back to present profile) and swing the weapon up into position, locking the weak side arm against the body and grasping either the hand or the wrist of the shooting arm to steady the weapon. With practice, this is done in one, fluid movement with the weak-side upper arm protecting the vital areas. It has become such a habit with me that this is how I shoot 95% of the time when I'm hunting. (It also helps with my arthritis.)
The reason I asked my question was because I have been approached by other shooters and range monitors about this style as if they have never seen it, while watching others use the "gangsta" style I mentioned, shooting from the hip or the Weaver style. Even when they shoot one handed, they are still square to the target.
I know I'm old; my days of shooting go back before decent body armor was even a dream. (Yeah, I remember those god-awful flak-jackets.) I was just curious if the "old styles" of combat shooting are still being taught and wanted some feed-back on if others had noticed the same thing.

[tlarkin]

I am not a professional shooter nor an instructor. However, I can see several reasons why you would want to train that way. For one, everyone who gets the concept of fighting knows that there is no set stance at all, that it is all energy and motion, not some set of fixed movements or motions.

that being said, the skeletal muscular system works most efficient in certain ways. One example is, hold your arm straight out and perpindicular to your chest, so you create a horse shoe kind of. Hold it with the back of the forearm facing out and have someone push on it. Notice how easily it collapses. Now do the same exact thing but with your inside forearm facing out, and you have now created a more efficient body structure that is just naturally stronger. People can push on it and it takes way less energy to match their push, and you are saving energy while they are wasting it. If you have both arms straight out creating a triangle while pushing your elbows out and pulling them in a bit towards your body, you create a very solid structure; and do so with out any tension, try to remain relaxed but with intent. With the right grip and that structure I bet you can even lessen the recoil just by stance alone. Thus giving you a more accurate shot.

Another reason is to train two sides at once. Lets say that you were injured on your dominant arm/hand and had to switch to use your gun. Training the neutral stance helps develop off stance better. I have done this in training martial arts as well.

[oldjarhead]

I received a DVD from the NRA on defensive pistol shooting. By the time a potential victim acquired the stance and posture of shooting, the perpetrator will have a cadaver to drag away. I sent the fricken thing back to NRA.
Problem is...too many "experts" and not enough realists. A good shooting stance is the one that works for you and keeps you from being the target that gets hit.

[tlarkin]

Originally Posted by oldjarhead

I received a DVD from the NRA on defensive pistol shooting. By the time a potential victim acquired the stance and posture of shooting, the perpetrator will have a cadaver to drag away. I sent the fricken thing back to NRA.
Problem is...too many "experts" and not enough realists. A good shooting stance is the one that works for you and keeps you from being the target that gets hit.

Yup it is a classic of to many cooks in the kitchen! Everyone is different, and everyone is more comfortable with different stances. I just like training the neutral position because I am never going to be in my preferred stance when stuff goes down and I have to defend myself. I think it is logical.

[Jersey Jailer]

Hey Mike, you said it, I didn't. Just hope you don't rile up the ladies. I think the Feds started around the time they adopted the 10mm

[mosquitofish]

I had to stand up & check. I think i'm About 45 deg. to target, using two hands. That the way I was taught. So far my paper target have't shot back.

[Rambo]

For most people, taking handgun classes is for home/personal protection. This is how they are being taught, standing square and it works. These people will never get into a firefight where body armor is needed nor worry about taking multiple return fire.
Combat handgunning is taught differently, depending on the organizations particular needs/wants. I prefer dropping to one knee or prone at the onset of trouble. A whole lot less to get shot at. This practice has carried over to hunting game animals. My friends shake their heads when I drop to one knee and shoot a deer.

[Turbo]

FBI did a study a few years ago. It showed that blading towards the target would generally produce more lethal results on the shooter. This is because when you are hit, it is easier for that one hit to hit multiple organs. By squaring with the target yes you are presenting more mass to shoot at, but it is less likely to hit multiple critical organs.

Couple that with increased stability for follow on shots, I am going to go with squaring on the target.

[oldjarhead]

Originally Posted by Rambo

For most people, taking handgun classes is for home/personal protection. This is how they are being taught, standing square and it works. These people will never get into a firefight where body armor is needed nor worry about taking multiple return fire.
Combat handgunning is taught differently, depending on the organizations particular needs/wants. I prefer dropping to one knee or prone at the onset of trouble. A whole lot less to get shot at. This practice has carried over to hunting game animals. My friends shake their heads when I drop to one knee and shoot a deer.

Actually, I'd prefer to keep the perp a rifle shot away.
Handgun if need be.
Prone is good. Peeking around a wall is better...lol

[Punisher]

I would like to learn different shooting stances. I need to get to the range and practice.