My supremely viable SHTF weapon.

squirrelblaster · 07-07-2008, 10:49 PM

i had the same stock on my 10/22, i will say that it looks very sweet and that the folding stock is nice of you have to conceal it somewhere but i found that i was much more accurate with the origanal stock. but eather way i own a few other guns id much rather have when the shtf unless it was zombie squirrels.

riverrat · 07-07-2008, 11:41 PM

Good plan, JM, my SHTF kit includes both my .22 and a centerfire weapon. But I live in a rural environment and if I had to keep one to feed my family for an extended period of time it would be the .22.

JMcDonald · 07-08-2008, 12:44 AM

It seems we might all have different ideas of the most likely "SHTF." Mine is people are going crazy trying to survive, looting etc, and I am just trying to get from my house to our meeting place as quickly and quietly and peacefully as possible. If I absolutely had to fight against some military force, then regardless of whether I had a 10/22 or an M60, Id use the exact same tactics; shoot and scoot. However, as Ive stated before, if I am at all in a position to actually be able to "scoot" after a shot without being mown down, then I would have just "scooted" on by without any shots in the first place, and increased my chances of survival far beyond any hero with an AK.

As far as my argument goes, here are the facts for my case:

1) Shooting .22LR, I am able to practice on average probably 20+ days a month. With a 9mm carbine, that drops to about 1 time a month average (only because I could shoot at my grandpa's). With a rifle-caliber weapon, my practice time would drop even more as Id only be able to shoot at the range which is about 45 minutes away (one way).

For those of you who like to use examples from the military, let me ask how often sodiers (specifically infantrymen and other groups like Special Forces) must practice with their weapons? I could only guess, but I bet we'd be the laughing stock of the world's militaries if they only practiced once a month. Even further, I bet it would be even worse if the only thing they practiced was standing or benched single shots at 30 yards. That is all Id be able to do at my local range, unlike the .22lr with which I can practice many more shooting techniques, operations, and manuevers at all sorts of distances at my various locations.

2) Were I to go back to the 9mm carbine as the intended primary weapon, Id only be able to afford to stock and practice with cheap FMJ bulk-packs. Not only will they simply make clean .355" holes through the target, they are not water resistant like defensive loads. Good .22lr rounds should be more water resistant than cheap 9mm rounds (one reason being the nature of the .22lr to have no separate primer seam to leak). And, good .22lr rounds expand to nearly the same diameter as a 9mm (easily .33-.34"), so the size of the hole won't be much different either way.

3) The report of a .22lr is the only thing Ive ever shot that I don't find discomfort in shooting without hearing protection. Even the 9mm carbine gives your ears a little pinch with each shot. My 18.5" 12g was ridiculously loud, and Ive heard that .223s and 7.62x39s are just as loud. Shooting in an open field one time without hearing protection left me partially deaf for several minutes in my left ear, with an annoying ringing. Imagine that in an urban environment or shot after shot, and you risk dramatic temporary hearing loss (or worse). I don't know about you guys but if you can't hear that [insert bad thing] coming up behind you in the first place, then it won't matter what you are shooting.

The same applies to the muzzle flash. The muzzle flash of a .223 / 7.62x39 is very brilliant, especially compared to the tiny pop of a .22lr. At night, especially on the move or on watch, it seems imperative to want to preserve night vision as best as possible. After a few shots with a shotgun or rifle-caliber weapon, your night vision will be much worse than if you were shooting a .22lr, and you will probably be worse off fighting attackers than if you had said .22lr rifle to begin with.

Of course, there are other non-personal advantages to a low report and muzzle flash. These are obviously related to stealth, which apparently not many people care about.

4) My primary vest as-is weighs almost 20 pounds, and my secondary pack adds another 15-20. To add even a bolt-action to carry would not only make my gear much more cumbersome, but would add a good 12 pounds with ammo. Also, almost all the space in the vest is used up, and I have only one pocket dedicated to loose ammo. I can almost fit a whole brick of .22lr in that pocket, though Id realistically only carry around 300 rounds or so to make for easier access to it without it being stuffed in there. With 9mm that number drops to around 100 without running into packing issues, and with rifle-caliber ammo that number would drop to probably no more than 40 rounds. To make space or carry an extra bag / bandolier with the same number of larger caliber ammo (300 or so) would probably add what, another 10 pounds over the same number of .22lr? On the same note, 25rd mags are tiny in comparison to 25rd rifle mags. I can fit two 25rd 10/22 mags in a single pocket designed for a rifle mag.

And, there are no reliable magazines over 10rd (stock) for my 9mm carbine. That puts me at, IMO, quite a disadvantage from the 25rd mags I have with the 10/22.

Recon 173 · 07-08-2008, 03:51 AM

Don't worry about the naysayers. A couple of things...

#1. Practice, practice and practice some more with your set-up. Keep practicing with it until it becomes a part of you.
#2. Remember it is tactics and shot placement that matters the most in situations where combat is involved. A guy with a .22 who has practiced and knows what he will do with his guns is better off than a guy with a high priced AR or AK that's all tricked out that can't hit anything.

Now remember that if you do have to engage a bad guy with your .22 LR shooter, if he's under 100 yards you will need to go for head shots if possible. Also keep in mind that the Chinese found out that small bore shots that are spaced out over the torso of a human body causes a lot of shock that will probably kill the intended target. On average, 3 hits will create 3 points of trauma to the body that the body can't properly adjust to for treating. Hence too much trauma that kills off the target.

Good luck with your set-up.

JMcDonald · 07-08-2008, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Recon 173

#1. Practice, practice and practice some more with your set-up. Keep practicing with it until it becomes a part of you. Remember it is tactics and shot placement that matters the most in situations where combat is involved. A guy with a .22 who has practiced and knows what he will do with his guns is better off than a guy with a high priced AR or AK that's all tricked out that can't hit anything.

Oh definately! That is exactly what I intend to do, and realistically the only way I could do that would be to use the .22lr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Recon 173

Now remember that if you do have to engage a bad guy with your .22 LR shooter, if he's under 100 yards you will need to go for head shots if possible.

If you meant over 100 yards, then that is what I would have expected to do. It would depend on the situation really. If they are somewhat stationary but I see them as direct threats to me or another innocent person, I would try to take the extra time for a steady head shot. If they are running wildly and I feel they are a direct thread to me or another innocent (also meaning they aren't shooting at me very efficiently), then Id try to go for as many hits (in any spot) possible to slow them down enough to either get away or finish them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Recon 173

Also keep in mind that the Chinese found out that small bore shots that are spaced out over the torso of a human body causes a lot of shock that will probably kill the intended target. On average, 3 hits will create 3 points of trauma to the body that the body can't properly adjust to for treating. Hence too much trauma that kills off the target.

That is very interestig info! Ive actually heard statements like that supporting why people use double- and triple-taps with smaller caliber weapons.

Thanks for the info!

Rex in OTZ · 07-08-2008, 04:41 PM

Flame thrower and hand gernades, back-up by a belt fed 30 cal. come on .22 guy make my day.

SwedeSteve · 07-08-2008, 04:55 PM

While I believe that the 22LR is probably the best solution for a gamegetting survival round, I think you are undergunned in a defensive scenario. If you are doing it right, then you won't have to defend yourself at all. What if you are spotted by "troops" at 250m? What if you get cornered or boxed in? These are situations we hope we will not find ourselves in, but know are an a issue that needs to be considered.

Rex in OTZ · 07-08-2008, 07:17 PM

A .22 has been killing people since the day's it first came out but the majority of the injuries and deaths have been in home's, boats, across camp fires, shooting ranges but not over 150 yards to intentionally kill game bigger than a gopher,
as soom as your up aginst a 38/357 or a fella packing a 9mm they have the edge in range and throwing heaver projectiles.
I feel the weapons we are now issueing to our troops today are limited in there lite weight projectiles and limited wound damage to soft tissue of the M9 and the M4 as ineffective fight stoppers against the insurgents they are presently engageing these day's I feel it is a repeat of our trend to go lite in post Spanish/Amercian war Occupation of the Philippines dealing with Muslim Morro tribe's when we the 6mm
Lee Navy and the 38 colt revolver were too light to stop the Morro.
the Crux of the tale is if your going gunning for zelot's pack heavy youll need it.

JMcDonald · 07-08-2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rex in OTZ

Flame thrower and hand gernades, back-up by a belt fed 30 cal. come on .22 guy make my day.

Im sorry, but that sounded a little funny.

First of all, it wouldn't matter what I was carrying, if I ever saw someone with said gear using it on everyone he came accross, I'd immediately assume he was completely insane and avoid him like the plague.

Second of all, no bullet is going to beat out a grenade, so that point is moot. I suppose if it came down to seconds and you had a grenade in your hand and I absoutely had to drop you, the advantage MIGHT go to something else. Still, even a slug through the heart could still take up to 15 seconds to physically take you out of the fight, so once again that point is moot.

However, on that same note, since it would realistically be down to a headshot to keep you from tossing a nade my way, Id trust myself with my 10/22 LONG before any higher-powered weapon to make that shot and save myself.

As far as range goes, Im sure you've all heard the story about the turkey. And, the .22lr will have less drop than a 9mm pistol round out of a rifle, which would be the only other alternative Id really consider (my 9mm carbine, but Ive already stated my reasons against that).

Seven© · 07-08-2008, 10:13 PM

Jesus...

Ya'll never convince JM it isn't "viable."
JM will never convince ya'll it is.

Let it go. Move on. Damn.

JMcDonald · 07-08-2008, 10:58 PM

Actually, there was quite a bit of support for my position the first time around. At the very least, the the majority seemed to appreciate the far greater amount of logical thought I put into it than "get the biggest guns I can handle and blast everyone in my way."
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/sur...-weapon-2.html (Viability of the .22LR as a SHTF gun AND a "combat" weapon?)

big shrek · 07-09-2008, 02:11 AM

The M-9 is on it's way out...it's days have been numbered. The likely replacement will be a .45 as per the GAO's new requirements...

Marine's are replacing M-16's with old M-14's as fast as they can...so with any luck we'll soon see the venerable M-16 go away as a 7.62 replacement comes into view...

Rex in OTZ · 07-09-2008, 03:35 PM

The whole class of 308 cartridges are excillent like the 7mm-08 or 243winchester make awesome hunting rounds as they are loaded with bullets ment for hunting & killing that are effective on deer/man size targets, the problem is the military has those goofball rules they live by so hunting cartridges probibly wouldent work well in combat weapons due to the the cartridge designe and some agreement made 100 years ago about hamane way's to conduct war, "hand gernades,flame throwers, Phosphrus rounds,land mines all are pretty much NOT humane way's of killing" but the FMJ lives on, so if your pokeing holes you might as well make big ones!

leomort · 07-10-2008, 08:33 AM

.223rem with proper bullets can harvest deer clean, don't see why it wouldn't work on human targets. Plus you can carry more .223rem rounds than .308win rounds. If you're looking for selfdense in SHTF than .223rem, in survival SHTF take the .22lr rifle and 9mm sidearm.

mos19k · 07-10-2008, 09:39 AM

I've been trying to stay out of this argument but I simply can't resist anymore. First off, not trying to convince anyone as to which caliber they should use, I honestly don't care. In the end you're going to use what you feel comfortable with and that's all that matters.

This is just my opinion and is worth exactly the amount you paid for it. If I had to choose one and only one firearm to take with me into the wilderness due to a SHTF situation it would be the venerable .22lr. I have my 10/22 set up with a Butler Creek folding stock and have both 25 and 50 round magazines. The rifle is very accurate out to a 100 yards and supplies enough stopping power to bring down any game I would realistically be hunting. Now that takes care of supplying food for the table.

As to the subject of "troops" coming after me and me having only the 10/22, it's a ridiculous scenario but let's play it out. First off why would any group risk injury or death by chasing an armed individual that has not shown to be a danger to them? This does assume that you are not trying to antagonize them. If you stay away from obviously aggressive groups you should have no problems. If for some reason they do decide to come after you, your 10/22 is more than sufficient to injure them enough to discourage any further action. If not then your choice of firearm isn't the problem it's your location. No matter how big and bad a gun you get someone will have a bigger and badder one. This isn't combat this is survival, you avoid conflicts otherwise you've already lost.

wunhunglo · 07-10-2008, 10:47 AM

As a survival weapon any .22 rimfire rifle would probably do, I really like my little Browning semi-auto take-down with it's silencer (in my younger days I took quite a few deer with it illegally); in a SHTF situation I'd want a bit more oomph, maybe even a liberator 45 until I could get a real combat weapon.

JMcDonald · 07-10-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mos19k

I've been trying to stay out of this argument but I simply can't resist anymore. First off, not trying to convince anyone as to which caliber they should use, I honestly don't care. In the end you're going to use what you feel comfortable with and that's all that matters.

This is just my opinion and is worth exactly the amount you paid for it. If I had to choose one and only one firearm to take with me into the wilderness due to a SHTF situation it would be the venerable .22lr. I have my 10/22 set up with a Butler Creek folding stock and have both 25 and 50 round magazines. The rifle is very accurate out to a 100 yards and supplies enough stopping power to bring down any game I would realistically be hunting. Now that takes care of supplying food for the table.

As to the subject of "troops" coming after me and me having only the 10/22, it's a ridiculous scenario but let's play it out. First off why would any group risk injury or death by chasing an armed individual that has not shown to be a danger to them? This does assume that you are not trying to antagonize them. If you stay away from obviously aggressive groups you should have no problems. If for some reason they do decide to come after you, your 10/22 is more than sufficient to injure them enough to discourage any further action. If not then your choice of firearm isn't the problem it's your location. No matter how big and bad a gun you get someone will have a bigger and badder one. This isn't combat this is survival, you avoid conflicts otherwise you've already lost.

Thank you.

Laufer · 07-12-2008, 02:05 AM

Somebody suggested using CCI Stingers.
What are they?

Are they much more expensive than normal .22 lr?

I'm sort of a novice with guns, despite my middle age.

Mini 14, 30, SKS, MN 44 (and ancient Savage .22)., all used only for plinking.

Keeping my are safe from floating fruit (in a deep, nearby river). This mission is only for the fearless.

JMcDonald · 07-12-2008, 02:32 PM

Their price isn't too bad. Like other high-end .22lr rounds you are still looking at a little over $5 per 50.

They are light-weight (32gr) .22lr bullets. Due to their light weight, the bullet could be shortened, allowing for a longer case to hold more powder. So yeah, they are lighter, and also stuffer with a bit more powder which allows for velocities over 1600fps from a rifle.

However, as I mentioned, lighter bullets with higher velocities tend to be more likely to fragment on impact, lessening the penetration potential.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/ballis...px?loadNo=0050

ArkansasHunter · 07-12-2008, 02:44 PM

The city I was born and raised in has a population of 23000 Of these 23000 how many are hunters ? How many own centerfire rifles and shotguns ?
How many own AR-15's, AK-47's and SKS rifles ?

If you came here the week before opening morning of Deer season you'll be shocked at how many folks Deer hunt.

Now say a SHFT situation were to occur. Are you going to go up against these several thosand folks with a 22 rim fire rifle ?

Above I mentioned Ar-15's and other assault type weapons. Did you know where I live AR-15's are selling like crazy here along with police/military shotguns ?

What I'm trying to convay is this isn't the only town in America. there's 1000 and 1000 more just like my town so I would rethink your idea of the perfect SHFT gun.
Which in your case is a 22 rim fire.

07-07-2008, 10:49 PM	#21
squirrelblaster lord of lego turtles! Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,493	i had the same stock on my 10/22, i will say that it looks very sweet and that the folding stock is nice of you have to conceal it somewhere but i found that i was much more accurate with the origanal stock. but eather way i own a few other guns id much rather have when the shtf unless it was zombie squirrels. __________________ "I like Turtles!" youtube kid

07-08-2008, 04:55 PM	#27
SwedeSteve Suspected Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Anchortown, Alaska Posts: 23,549 Images: 1	While I believe that the 22LR is probably the best solution for a gamegetting survival round, I think you are undergunned in a defensive scenario. If you are doing it right, then you won't have to defend yourself at all. What if you are spotted by "troops" at 250m? What if you get cornered or boxed in? These are situations we hope we will not find ourselves in, but know are an a issue that needs to be considered. __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers

07-08-2008, 10:13 PM	#30
Seven© Exalted Grand PooBah Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: WNC Posts: 1,828 Images: 23 Blog Entries: 2	Jesus... Ya'll never convince JM it isn't "viable." JM will never convince ya'll it is. Let it go. Move on. Damn. __________________

07-09-2008, 02:11 AM	#32
big shrek Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Northwest, FL Posts: 3,128 Images: 56	The M-9 is on it's way out...it's days have been numbered. The likely replacement will be a .45 as per the GAO's new requirements... Marine's are replacing M-16's with old M-14's as fast as they can...so with any luck we'll soon see the venerable M-16 go away as a 7.62 replacement comes into view... __________________ In every Unit...there is a Scrounger...

07-12-2008, 02:05 AM	#38
Laufer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Down south. Posts: 547	Somebody suggested using CCI Stingers. What are they? Are they much more expensive than normal .22 lr? I'm sort of a novice with guns, despite my middle age. Mini 14, 30, SKS, MN 44 (and ancient Savage .22)., all used only for plinking. Keeping my are safe from floating fruit (in a deep, nearby river). This mission is only for the fearless. Last edited by Laufer; 07-13-2008 at 01:08 AM.

07-07-2008, 11:41 PM	#22
riverrat Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: central tx Posts: 120	Good plan, JM, my SHTF kit includes both my .22 and a centerfire weapon. But I live in a rural environment and if I had to keep one to feed my family for an extended period of time it would be the .22.

07-08-2008, 12:44 AM	#23
JMcDonald Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,307	It seems we might all have different ideas of the most likely "SHTF." Mine is people are going crazy trying to survive, looting etc, and I am just trying to get from my house to our meeting place as quickly and quietly and peacefully as possible. If I absolutely had to fight against some military force, then regardless of whether I had a 10/22 or an M60, Id use the exact same tactics; shoot and scoot. However, as Ive stated before, if I am at all in a position to actually be able to "scoot" after a shot without being mown down, then I would have just "scooted" on by without any shots in the first place, and increased my chances of survival far beyond any hero with an AK. As far as my argument goes, here are the facts for my case: 1) Shooting .22LR, I am able to practice on average probably 20+ days a month. With a 9mm carbine, that drops to about 1 time a month average (only because I could shoot at my grandpa's). With a rifle-caliber weapon, my practice time would drop even more as Id only be able to shoot at the range which is about 45 minutes away (one way). For those of you who like to use examples from the military, let me ask how often sodiers (specifically infantrymen and other groups like Special Forces) must practice with their weapons? I could only guess, but I bet we'd be the laughing stock of the world's militaries if they only practiced once a month. Even further, I bet it would be even worse if the only thing they practiced was standing or benched single shots at 30 yards. That is all Id be able to do at my local range, unlike the .22lr with which I can practice many more shooting techniques, operations, and manuevers at all sorts of distances at my various locations. 2) Were I to go back to the 9mm carbine as the intended primary weapon, Id only be able to afford to stock and practice with cheap FMJ bulk-packs. Not only will they simply make clean .355" holes through the target, they are not water resistant like defensive loads. Good .22lr rounds should be more water resistant than cheap 9mm rounds (one reason being the nature of the .22lr to have no separate primer seam to leak). And, good .22lr rounds expand to nearly the same diameter as a 9mm (easily .33-.34"), so the size of the hole won't be much different either way. 3) The report of a .22lr is the only thing Ive ever shot that I don't find discomfort in shooting without hearing protection. Even the 9mm carbine gives your ears a little pinch with each shot. My 18.5" 12g was ridiculously loud, and Ive heard that .223s and 7.62x39s are just as loud. Shooting in an open field one time without hearing protection left me partially deaf for several minutes in my left ear, with an annoying ringing. Imagine that in an urban environment or shot after shot, and you risk dramatic temporary hearing loss (or worse). I don't know about you guys but if you can't hear that [insert bad thing] coming up behind you in the first place, then it won't matter what you are shooting. The same applies to the muzzle flash. The muzzle flash of a .223 / 7.62x39 is very brilliant, especially compared to the tiny pop of a .22lr. At night, especially on the move or on watch, it seems imperative to want to preserve night vision as best as possible. After a few shots with a shotgun or rifle-caliber weapon, your night vision will be much worse than if you were shooting a .22lr, and you will probably be worse off fighting attackers than if you had said .22lr rifle to begin with. Of course, there are other non-personal advantages to a low report and muzzle flash. These are obviously related to stealth, which apparently not many people care about. 4) My primary vest as-is weighs almost 20 pounds, and my secondary pack adds another 15-20. To add even a bolt-action to carry would not only make my gear much more cumbersome, but would add a good 12 pounds with ammo. Also, almost all the space in the vest is used up, and I have only one pocket dedicated to loose ammo. I can almost fit a whole brick of .22lr in that pocket, though Id realistically only carry around 300 rounds or so to make for easier access to it without it being stuffed in there. With 9mm that number drops to around 100 without running into packing issues, and with rifle-caliber ammo that number would drop to probably no more than 40 rounds. To make space or carry an extra bag / bandolier with the same number of larger caliber ammo (300 or so) would probably add what, another 10 pounds over the same number of .22lr? On the same note, 25rd mags are tiny in comparison to 25rd rifle mags. I can fit two 25rd 10/22 mags in a single pocket designed for a rifle mag. And, there are no reliable magazines over 10rd (stock) for my 9mm carbine. That puts me at, IMO, quite a disadvantage from the 25rd mags I have with the 10/22.

07-08-2008, 03:51 AM	#24
Recon 173 Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 45	Don't worry about the naysayers. A couple of things... #1. Practice, practice and practice some more with your set-up. Keep practicing with it until it becomes a part of you. #2. Remember it is tactics and shot placement that matters the most in situations where combat is involved. A guy with a .22 who has practiced and knows what he will do with his guns is better off than a guy with a high priced AR or AK that's all tricked out that can't hit anything. Now remember that if you do have to engage a bad guy with your .22 LR shooter, if he's under 100 yards you will need to go for head shots if possible. Also keep in mind that the Chinese found out that small bore shots that are spaced out over the torso of a human body causes a lot of shock that will probably kill the intended target. On average, 3 hits will create 3 points of trauma to the body that the body can't properly adjust to for treating. Hence too much trauma that kills off the target. Good luck with your set-up.

07-08-2008, 04:41 PM	#26
Rex in OTZ Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: NorthWest Alaska Posts: 975	Flame thrower and hand gernades, back-up by a belt fed 30 cal. come on .22 guy make my day.

07-08-2008, 07:17 PM	#28
Rex in OTZ Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: NorthWest Alaska Posts: 975	A .22 has been killing people since the day's it first came out but the majority of the injuries and deaths have been in home's, boats, across camp fires, shooting ranges but not over 150 yards to intentionally kill game bigger than a gopher, as soom as your up aginst a 38/357 or a fella packing a 9mm they have the edge in range and throwing heaver projectiles. I feel the weapons we are now issueing to our troops today are limited in there lite weight projectiles and limited wound damage to soft tissue of the M9 and the M4 as ineffective fight stoppers against the insurgents they are presently engageing these day's I feel it is a repeat of our trend to go lite in post Spanish/Amercian war Occupation of the Philippines dealing with Muslim Morro tribe's when we the 6mm Lee Navy and the 38 colt revolver were too light to stop the Morro. the Crux of the tale is if your going gunning for zelot's pack heavy youll need it.

07-08-2008, 10:58 PM	#31
JMcDonald Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,307	Actually, there was quite a bit of support for my position the first time around. At the very least, the the majority seemed to appreciate the far greater amount of logical thought I put into it than "get the biggest guns I can handle and blast everyone in my way." http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/sur...-weapon-2.html (Viability of the .22LR as a SHTF gun AND a "combat" weapon?)

07-09-2008, 03:35 PM	#33
Rex in OTZ Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: NorthWest Alaska Posts: 975	The whole class of 308 cartridges are excillent like the 7mm-08 or 243winchester make awesome hunting rounds as they are loaded with bullets ment for hunting & killing that are effective on deer/man size targets, the problem is the military has those goofball rules they live by so hunting cartridges probibly wouldent work well in combat weapons due to the the cartridge designe and some agreement made 100 years ago about hamane way's to conduct war, "hand gernades,flame throwers, Phosphrus rounds,land mines all are pretty much NOT humane way's of killing" but the FMJ lives on, so if your pokeing holes you might as well make big ones!

07-10-2008, 08:33 AM	#34
leomort Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 56	.223rem with proper bullets can harvest deer clean, don't see why it wouldn't work on human targets. Plus you can carry more .223rem rounds than .308win rounds. If you're looking for selfdense in SHTF than .223rem, in survival SHTF take the .22lr rifle and 9mm sidearm.

07-10-2008, 09:39 AM	#35
mos19k Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Miami, Fl. Posts: 329	I've been trying to stay out of this argument but I simply can't resist anymore. First off, not trying to convince anyone as to which caliber they should use, I honestly don't care. In the end you're going to use what you feel comfortable with and that's all that matters. This is just my opinion and is worth exactly the amount you paid for it. If I had to choose one and only one firearm to take with me into the wilderness due to a SHTF situation it would be the venerable .22lr. I have my 10/22 set up with a Butler Creek folding stock and have both 25 and 50 round magazines. The rifle is very accurate out to a 100 yards and supplies enough stopping power to bring down any game I would realistically be hunting. Now that takes care of supplying food for the table. As to the subject of "troops" coming after me and me having only the 10/22, it's a ridiculous scenario but let's play it out. First off why would any group risk injury or death by chasing an armed individual that has not shown to be a danger to them? This does assume that you are not trying to antagonize them. If you stay away from obviously aggressive groups you should have no problems. If for some reason they do decide to come after you, your 10/22 is more than sufficient to injure them enough to discourage any further action. If not then your choice of firearm isn't the problem it's your location. No matter how big and bad a gun you get someone will have a bigger and badder one. This isn't combat this is survival, you avoid conflicts otherwise you've already lost.

07-10-2008, 10:47 AM	#36
wunhunglo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: currently "Sunny West Africa" Posts: 4,102	As a survival weapon any .22 rimfire rifle would probably do, I really like my little Browning semi-auto take-down with it's silencer (in my younger days I took quite a few deer with it illegally); in a SHTF situation I'd want a bit more oomph, maybe even a liberator 45 until I could get a real combat weapon.

07-12-2008, 02:32 PM	#39
JMcDonald Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,307	Their price isn't too bad. Like other high-end .22lr rounds you are still looking at a little over $5 per 50. They are light-weight (32gr) .22lr bullets. Due to their light weight, the bullet could be shortened, allowing for a longer case to hold more powder. So yeah, they are lighter, and also stuffer with a bit more powder which allows for velocities over 1600fps from a rifle. However, as I mentioned, lighter bullets with higher velocities tend to be more likely to fragment on impact, lessening the penetration potential. http://www.cci-ammunition.com/ballis...px?loadNo=0050

07-12-2008, 02:44 PM	#40
ArkansasHunter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: South Arkansas. Posts: 17,211	The city I was born and raised in has a population of 23000 Of these 23000 how many are hunters ? How many own centerfire rifles and shotguns ? How many own AR-15's, AK-47's and SKS rifles ? If you came here the week before opening morning of Deer season you'll be shocked at how many folks Deer hunt. Now say a SHFT situation were to occur. Are you going to go up against these several thosand folks with a 22 rim fire rifle ? Above I mentioned Ar-15's and other assault type weapons. Did you know where I live AR-15's are selling like crazy here along with police/military shotguns ? What I'm trying to convay is this isn't the only town in America. there's 1000 and 1000 more just like my town so I would rethink your idea of the perfect SHFT gun. Which in your case is a 22 rim fire.