Combat Experience

[mos19k]

I was an M1 tanker, unfortunately the government won't let me keep an M1 in the garage for home protection. One of the weapons I truly loved to fire was the old M3 Grease Gun. This .45 submachine gun was just plain fun to shoot and at 50 yards would ruin your day. We still had the 1911's, I was very disappointed when they decided to replace it with the 9mm.

In my military days I carried the following:
1911 .45
M3 Grease Gun .45
M16A2 .223

As a government contractor I carry the following:
GLOCK 17 9mm
Remington 870 12ga

Personal weapon choices:
GLOCK 21 .45
Yugo AK47 UF 7.62x39mm
Mossberg 500 12ga

[Pope130]

I was USAF, a techy, then a flier, but also SP/LE augmentee, Squadron Survival Instructor and Armorer.

In service I qualified on:
M-16 (and M-16A1, XM-177, GAU-5)
M-15 Revolver
M-9
Remington 870 (I forget the "M" number)

Personal choices:
AR-180 .223
Para Ordnance P-14 .45
Firestar M-43 (CCW) 9mm
Mossberg 500 12ga

[Mike Franklin]

JMcDonald, I have repeatedly said that YOU CAN CARRY WHATEVER YOU WANT TO, IT'S YOUR CHOICE. Can you not let it go? On this Topic I was addressing those who've actually 'been there, done that'.

mos19k, I loved shooting the M3. I had access to one at a prior job. It was for special occasions only. The M3 is great fun and will put a zipper right up the torso.

[JMcDonald]

Originally Posted by Mike Franklin

JMcDonald, I have repeatedly said that YOU CAN CARRY WHATEVER YOU WANT TO, IT'S YOUR CHOICE.

Except when you were telling me I was living in a dream world, or downplaying my actual logic as "Ninja tactics." Hell, everytime you actually said something like I could carry what I want, your "if you wanna die quickly" tone was so harsh I could see it even through the internet. I was hoping you would give me a real reason to not use the .22lr, other than things Ive already shown that I understand? If you can't, then why still talk down to me like I am stupid for my weapon of choice?

[Mike Franklin]

Ok
A .22 is not a reliable fight stopper, I've worked plenty of shooting where small 'pop' guns were used. They don't stop a determined attacker. I've seen people walk to the ambulance shot with a .22.
I can’t find a Police Agency or Military force who relies on a .22 rf as any type of main fighting weapon. There’s a good reason for that.
In a bad SHTF, there will be thousands of people running around with guns, most scared shitless and shooting anything that scares'm. The closer you are to a city the worst it will be.
If, if, someone starts shooting at you and your family/group from long range a .22 is not going to get to'm or pen'm down so you can get away. A .30-30 would be a far better choice.
I live in the country, sneaking around thinking you're some kinda Ninja will get you shot quick. City criminals get shot or caught out here all the time, they are always surprised by how determined we are to protect and keep or stuff we are.
You can bet that we country folk are going to stick together and be damned suspicious of the looter/city slickers invading our places.
We are not going to do a quarter arms and march into your sights. We know the land, it's our home. We are not the British Army of 1776.
The fact that you can put 2 or 3 in the chest of a paper target is worth Shit. I'm not a paper target and I'm not standing there for you to shoot at.
BTW, shoot one of us and we'll put the dogs on ya. When we catch you we'll try to take you alive and then hang ya after a very short trial.
My advice is to plan and buy for a worst case scenario. Buy stuff that is sturdy and reliable.
I don't buy the cheapest I can get buy with, I buy stuff that will save my ass. I'm fond of my ass and want it to be around for awhile.
OK, I thought with this subject.
As I've said, you get what you want, it's your ass not mine.

BTW, I have not meant to talk down to you. If it sounded that way I apoligize.

[JMcDonald]

Originally Posted by Mike Franklin

Ok
A .22 is not a reliable fight stopper, I've worked plenty of shooting where small 'pop' guns were used. They don't stop a determined attacker. I've seen people walk to the ambulance shot with a .22.

Did you not see my post where I mentioned that a .355" (9mm) hole isn't going to be much better than a .34" hole?

BTW, we've all heard and read stories of people surviving extraordinary gunshot wounds. Hell, I recently read a new article about a women who got shot in the forehead with a .44mag and the bullet fragmented on her skull and all she ended up needing was some stitches. At the same time, cows are executed all the time with .22 bullets right between the eyes, which is a thick part of the skull which is definately thicker than any human skull. But, there are all sorts of these odd stories. If anything, that one should teach that it can always take more than one shot, even if it is a very sure shot, to take out an attacker. The ability to shoot multiple shots in quick succession and actually hit something is very important. Isn't that why assault rifles have burst options? Two or three small holes in someone is almost always going to be better than if you left only one of those holes but made it bigger. Hell, Im sure the government realized this or they wouldn't have designed their rifles with burst capabilities, right? I mean, why didnt they just give everyone 7.62x54 semi-autos, instead of 5.56x45 burst weapons?

Originally Posted by Mike Franklin

I can’t find a Police Agency or Military force who relies on a .22 rf as any type of main fighting weapon. There’s a good reason for that.

Of course you can't. The first reason being that they have the budget to allow their LEOs and servicement to practice large amounts of time with large amounts of ammo. Ive already mentioned that. The second reason, something Ive also made very clear I understand, is a .40 or .45 HP round is going to do a lot more damage than a .22lr round. It is going to make a hole several times the area and cause much more rapid bleeding and damage. Of course, Ive already told you (more than once) what sacrifices must be made to carry a weapon like that for a survival situation. However, going back to the first point, they can much more easily afford to get quality practice, and much more of it, being that it is essentially their job.

Originally Posted by Mike Franklin

If, if, someone starts shooting at you and your family/group from long range a .22 is not going to get to'm or pen'm down so you can get away. A .30-30 would be a far better choice.

What kind of range are we talking about? At 100 yards or more if I am running it will be very difficult for your average person to hit me with anything. And, if it is as you say and there are thousands of people running around screaming, then that seemingly insane sniper trying to shoot me will probably start going for easier targets. BTW, a .22lr rifle (using high quality ammo) zeroed at 100 yards will only see about a two-foot drop at 200 yards, which would easily be accounted for. Aim a bit above their head and hits to the torso are very likely. Or, at the very least, this proves your statement that it won't reach them to pin them down definately innacurate. And, if a .22lr round with a 1050fps muzzle velocity can go through a turkey, 9 layers of clothing, and some duct tape at 250 yards then I doubt it will have a problem injuring a person at that distance (at LEAST enough to stop them from wanting to snipe me for no reason).

Originally Posted by Mike Franklin

I live in the country, sneaking around thinking you're some kinda Ninja will get you shot quick.

There you go with the ninja thing. You are right, I suppose I should just run down the street with an M60 and blast everyone I see? Or, if I had a big gun like that Id be welcomed everywhere, huh?

Originally Posted by Mike Franklin

City criminals get shot or caught out here all the time, they are always surprised by how determined we are to protect and keep or stuff we are.
You can bet that we country folk are going to stick together and be damned suspicious of the looter/city slickers invading our places.

Thank God I am not a criminal, have no intention of looting, and likewise have no intention of "invading" anyone.

Originally Posted by Mike Franklin

We are not going to do a quarter arms and march into your sights. We know the land, it's our home. We are not the British Army of 1776.
The fact that you can put 2 or 3 in the chest of a paper target is worth Shit. I'm not a paper target and I'm not standing there for you to shoot at.
BTW, shoot one of us and we'll put the dogs on ya. When we catch you we'll try to take you alive and then hang ya after a very short trial.

Jesus, you sound very crazy there. While, I understand the reasoning that you should just kill everyone who comes near your home, I honestly hope you don't put it into practice. As far as catching them alive so you can probably torture and hang them, that is quite sick if they weren't doing anything wrong to get themselves in that position in the first place. Now, if they broke in to your neighbor's house and kill them, then that is understandable.

The only reason Id ever shoot someone would be if they were threatening me AND not giving me an option to simply leave / escape. If I saw some country boy waving a rifle out of his window and yelling for me to go away (even though Id likely just be moving on by anyways), then Id just leave. I don't know why you think Id instantly start attacking people, especially after having stated (several times) my primary reasoning that a .22lr rifle would be adequate since I plan on avoiding all conflicts anyways.

Thus, I must say that if you are going to be huddled together with a bunch of people who intend to kill everyone they see, then good luck surviving for any length of time with them.

Originally Posted by Mike Franklin

My advice is to plan and buy for a worst case scenario. Buy stuff that is sturdy and reliable.
I don't buy the cheapest I can get buy with, I buy stuff that will save my ass. I'm fond of my ass and want it to be around for awhile.

I am buying within my means. My rifle is easy to disassemble, sturdy, and reliable. At least as much so as what I hear about the M16. Also, worst-case scenario is that all I have is my knowledge and experience to keep myself and loved ones alive. That means I won't likely be shacked up in my country home, with my thousand dollar rifle taking $.50 pot shots at innocent people 300 yards away. To clarify, it means that I don't want to be stuck in a panic trying to work with a rifle I only got to shoot at an (IMO) inadequate range once every two months. Hell, lets say somebody told me that I could either have a bow and arrow that I got to practice with 3 times a week, or that I could have ANY weapon I wanted on the day that the SHTF. I, like any logical person, would choose the primitive weapon that I KNOW how to use and fix, than even the baddest gun I could get a hold of.

Originally Posted by Mike Franklin

As I've said, you get what you want, it's your ass not mine.

Annnnnd there's that tone again.

[sunwheel29]

I really don't want to go into it, (bad memories) but I survived a shooting scrape when I was young.
At the time, I had a .45 and plenty of spare mags and a buddy with a .38 and a box of ammo.

(note, we weren't cops and we weren't military. We were two guys who went into the woods to go plinking and ran into a nutjob marijuana farmer who was out boobytrapping a field in the 80s)

We made it out in one peice, so I am STILL fond of the .45 (1911 style).
But at the time it happened, I kept thinking, "If I just had my 629, this would have been over a lot faster" as the guy shooting at us was about 80 yards away in thick brush.
I think the most important thing is to HAVE A GUN when TSHTF. I think the second most important thing is to have a gun that can take the fight out of the other guy if you make a hit. Just as important is to have the right "Combat Mindset" as Jeff Cooper called it.
I wish I had read Cooper's book on Principals of Personal Defense before I got shot at instead of afterwords....