A Horrible Truth!

JMcDonald · 05-27-2009, 08:50 PM

While I'll probably get some flack for this, I'll go ahead and add this perspective. Honestly, for suppressing fire alone, just for the purpose of keeping their heads down so your team can get position on them, it would be hard to beat a .22 rifle (probably 10/22) with several large-capacity magazines and a speed loader. Since its purpose would really be little more than keeping lead flying in direction of the enemy, I think it would suffice.

Also, with "hi velocity" bulk ammo around 1300fps, with a 200-yd zero you get about 16" of rise at 100 yards, and about 24" of drop at 250 yards. Thus, aiming at COM will still put POI, vertically at least, somewhere on the body between zero and 250 yards! It might not kill them, but you will still likely hit them, as perhaps no more than an 8" horizontal spread at those ranges is easily doable even with a stock-barreled 10/22. Even if it doesn't hit them, if the purpose is suppressing fire they will still definately hear the bullets going by or hitting the dirt, and would stay down for sure!

Though, realistically, as it sounds like you are quite good with your current BA rifles, you won't have any trouble keeping heads down with your rifle (if you don't actually put them down for good in the first place, heh). Are your rifles magazine fed? If so, just buy a few of those and I'd think you will be fine!

I actually just thought of something else. If you are busy popping off rounds in one direction, the distraction of the noise and focusing on one area might actually be a disadvantage, allowing others enemies to flank you. It might be better to just sit and hide out, watching out as best as you can, taking only perhaps a few shots when you are actually shooting at something. And hell, the money you'd spend on even a cheap .22 rifle setup could buy at least a thousand rounds of rifle ammo or reloading equipment (if not far more, depending on the caliber), allowing for lots of practice.

Mike U. · 05-27-2009, 09:02 PM

Well, I for one won't be sending any flak your way because you are absolutely right.
The .22 can surely lay down some Lead, and even granny could pull the trigger on a .22.
Knowing my granny though, I'd hand her the .22 and she'd probably whack me with her cane and tell me to pass the Garand over and stand back "sonny".

thrillbilly · 05-28-2009, 01:42 AM

I'm not planning on "supressive" fire. I was raised to hit what I shoot at and not waste ammo. With proper firing angles and positions, a group in a properly hardened position can pick and choose there shots. Dozens of events in the Old West where a handful of men in a good position with water and food held off hundreds of Indians prove my outlook. The general plan is to sit tight and wait for them to give up and go away. I don't like talking in specifics about my arms and ammo supplies, but I have your .22 idea covered, don't worry about that! As I've said before, I'm a Boy Scout, I like to plan for any eventuality.

cjleete · 05-28-2009, 10:18 AM

Well if you're thinking of a "SHTF" scenario, then that is a good doctrine to go by for defending your home. I'm in the city, where think my best bet would to be to get out of the city. So let's game that for a bit and see what we come up with.

thrillbilly · 05-28-2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjleete

Well if you're thinking of a "SHTF" scenario, then that is a good doctrine to go by for defending your home. I'm in the city, where think my best bet would to be to get out of the city. So let's game that for a bit and see what we come up with.

The best advice I can give ya is move NOW. I know what you're thinking, family, jobs, familiarity, finances, etc means ya want to stay where you are. That is your (and better half, if applicable) choice to make.
Even if SHTF never happens, which I pray is true, the crime, grime, and massed humanity separated from nature found in cities assures I won't be living there. Moving beforehand means you have a prepared place with supplies and the knowledge to use the resources. Also, rural folks don't take kindly to outsiders, so having awhile to get to know people would establish a friend-base. Bugging out to the boonies will guarantee you a meeting with rednecks with guns and a no-trespassing attitude. my 0.02$

One alternative school of thought, If everyone Bugs Out, then maybe cities will be the remote unpopulated area post-SHTF!

Mike U. · 05-29-2009, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thrillbilly

I'm not planning on "supressive" fire. I was raised to hit what I shoot at and not waste ammo. With proper firing angles and positions, a group in a properly hardened position can pick and choose there shots. Dozens of events in the Old West where a handful of men in a good position with water and food held off hundreds of Indians prove my outlook. The general plan is to sit tight and wait for them to give up and go away. I don't like talking in specifics about my arms and ammo supplies, but I have your .22 idea covered, don't worry about that! As I've said before, I'm a Boy Scout, I like to plan for any eventuality.

Yeah, your game plan appears pretty sound, as is. I'm envious, actually.

I'm the "gun nut" in my family. I'll likely be arming my family members if it all falls apart in our country, God forbid!

cjleete · 05-29-2009, 08:06 AM

Hmm , thinking of "The Omega Man"?

don5544 · 05-29-2009, 12:00 PM

I believe a gun without ammo is a stick. A broken gun is a stick. Yes guns break. I am a competitive shooter and the best weapons break at the worst time. My rule is at least two guns of any caliber.

One of my Ar's is set up as a target rifle. less than 1" groups at 100 yrds.

If I would want something I have a G3 that uses 308. Talk about pentration with FMJ ammo. I can take the farm house apart.

I would love the farm house because you really have a good setup.

Nothing is perfect.

If I had to run. A 357 mag pistol and a 357 mag rifle. Same ammo. 158gr ammo with a velocity of 2000 fps will hurt.

Make plans and pray nothing happens.

knightRider · 05-29-2009, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thrillbilly

Hi, my name is Thrillbilly, and I don't own a assault rifle (EBR). I know, I know, it's horrible! My background is hunting based. My guns and training revolves around that. The only semi-auto long-guns I own are .22s. I mainly have bolt-actions. My question is, do I need one? My SHTF plan is gathering with my brothers, a cousin, and my parents at a family farm. There is a rock farmhouse with metal roof which will be hardened at first sign of trouble. There will be 7 very capable adults with weapons and 3 more adults for loading as well as 2 tweens. My middle brother does have a SKS. I honestly don't see where a carbine with a 30-round mag will be a "must-have". 20 plus "deer" rifles, 30 plus .22s, 20-25 12Gs, and around a dozen handguns seem to be adequate. BTW, I agree with our right to own EBRs, just haven't ponied up the money for one. I would prefer "removing" the "targets" at 400-500 yards, BEFORE they get any closer to my family!
BTW, my 13 year-old nephew can hit milk jugs at 200 yards with his 30.06 and the rest of us rib him about his lack of skills! LOL.
Just looking for ya'lls 2 cents about whether I should pick a couple of SKSs or something similar. I also can't spend more then about 400$ most of the time, I'm usually broke, my Mosinitis is spreading fast!

that one sentence makes the gun grabbers horny.

thrillbilly · 05-29-2009, 03:08 PM

Hey I just said it may not be neccasary. They are fun though. I think we should be allowed anything we can afford. I know if I had the money, I'd love a SAW and a M203 and maybe a M60 on the roof of my truck. I'm talking real world, where food and housing and clothes and bills come before buying more guns. I wish to hell I had the collections that some of ya'll have (or at least ya'll have pics of) but on my budget, that's not going to happen for awhile. I pick up a couple or three guns a year, mainly guns I need to hunt with.
I do like to go on the M14 and AR threads and drool and feel very jealous! LOL When it comes to those type rifles, I see a 1200$ price tag and cringe. I'm lucky to buy a MN most of the time.

don5544 · 05-29-2009, 06:16 PM

As far as a M60 goes. Three years ago I found a ton of belted M60 ammo cheap. Now I have lots of AP and tracer ammo. It does hurt when you step on a link bare footed. Found that 308 in a 20 rd clip can chew a railroad tie up pretty good. How about going through the tie and putting a hole in a 2" pipe.

I have a great gun collection bought one gun a year over a long period. My wife say's I can buy a gun every time I buy her one. Mine cost $900. her's cost $250.

cjleete · 05-30-2009, 08:31 AM

Does your wife read the forums?

thrillbilly · 05-30-2009, 11:40 PM

If she does he's SOL!

cjleete · 06-01-2009, 08:07 AM

Looks like next time you go gun shopping, you're getting the Ruger and she gets the new Sig

larmus · 06-02-2009, 05:17 PM

you have a good handle on the situation thrillbilly, with what you have and are going to have once shtf, you wouldnt have need for a "assult rifle"... use the hunting rifles for distance, the shotguns for medium to close range and the pistols for close quarters... when patroling you property set some of the guys on the roofs with rifles and a couple on the ground with shoties and handguns... that would be enough to deter anyone... assult rifles are fun to shoot, and good for CQC, but you have enough weapons that they compensate for the lack of the assult rifle... and i would set the sks and the semi-hunting rifle in a forward position just in case you need the semi-power they provide... just my two cents

don5544 · 06-02-2009, 05:21 PM

My wife allowed me to buy another asault rifle and about $1K in ammo the week after the election.

Right now she is bugging me about more .380 ammo whuch is non existant at the gun stores.

Mike U. · 06-03-2009, 01:54 AM

Ya know, my BIL had that same complaint about .380 ACP ammo. Said he couldn't find it anywhere. It's been four-five months ago when he first mentioned it and he did so again just last week.
I assume the .380 is extremely popular with the non-gun nut, average Joe.

thrillbilly · 06-03-2009, 02:40 AM

^It's just that a gazilion cheap .380s are out there, jennings and such. Kind of like .38s, it's hard to find them because beacoup people have one stuck in their sock drawer.

cjleete · 06-03-2009, 09:04 AM

This household has 2 .38's in strategic places. As well as a .44. They're not the current fashion of hi-cap plastic or "custom" 1911's but they will do the job.

cubesmoothie · 06-27-2009, 01:48 AM

Sounds like you have plenty of firepower. I'm opting for an AK variant to get aquainted with it as my main rifle. I have several deer rifles and some .22's pumps and break barrels, a few shotguns, and a powerfull .40 caliber semi auto pistol. The way i see it though the AK can take a beating and if shtf i'd feel comfortable knowing that the rifle will go bang even if i have to swim a creek.

05-27-2009, 09:02 PM	#42
Mike U. Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oz, right next door to The Lollipop Guild HQ Posts: 120	Well, I for one won't be sending any flak your way because you are absolutely right. The .22 can surely lay down some Lead, and even granny could pull the trigger on a .22. Knowing my granny though, I'd hand her the .22 and she'd probably whack me with her cane and tell me to pass the Garand over and stand back "sonny". __________________ Gettin' old ain't fer sissies...

05-28-2009, 01:42 AM	#43
thrillbilly Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ozark Hill Country Posts: 3,184	I'm not planning on "supressive" fire. I was raised to hit what I shoot at and not waste ammo. With proper firing angles and positions, a group in a properly hardened position can pick and choose there shots. Dozens of events in the Old West where a handful of men in a good position with water and food held off hundreds of Indians prove my outlook. The general plan is to sit tight and wait for them to give up and go away. I don't like talking in specifics about my arms and ammo supplies, but I have your .22 idea covered, don't worry about that! As I've said before, I'm a Boy Scout, I like to plan for any eventuality. __________________ *" I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on."* John Wayne

05-29-2009, 03:08 PM	#50
thrillbilly Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ozark Hill Country Posts: 3,184	Hey I just said it may not be neccasary. They are fun though. I think we should be allowed anything we can afford. I know if I had the money, I'd love a SAW and a M203 and maybe a M60 on the roof of my truck. I'm talking real world, where food and housing and clothes and bills come before buying more guns. I wish to hell I had the collections that some of ya'll have (or at least ya'll have pics of) but on my budget, that's not going to happen for awhile. I pick up a couple or three guns a year, mainly guns I need to hunt with. I do like to go on the M14 and AR threads and drool and feel very jealous! LOL When it comes to those type rifles, I see a 1200$ price tag and cringe. I'm lucky to buy a MN most of the time. __________________ *" I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on."* John Wayne Last edited by thrillbilly; 05-29-2009 at 03:12 PM.

05-30-2009, 11:40 PM	#53
thrillbilly Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ozark Hill Country Posts: 3,184	If she does he's SOL! __________________ *" I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on."* John Wayne

06-02-2009, 05:17 PM	#55
larmus Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: arizona Posts: 3,435	you have a good handle on the situation thrillbilly, with what you have and are going to have once shtf, you wouldnt have need for a "assult rifle"... use the hunting rifles for distance, the shotguns for medium to close range and the pistols for close quarters... when patroling you property set some of the guys on the roofs with rifles and a couple on the ground with shoties and handguns... that would be enough to deter anyone... assult rifles are fun to shoot, and good for CQC, but you have enough weapons that they compensate for the lack of the assult rifle... and i would set the sks and the semi-hunting rifle in a forward position just in case you need the semi-power they provide... just my two cents __________________ Lawrence Home Defense: .45 and a Shovel...

05-27-2009, 08:50 PM	#41
JMcDonald Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,307	While I'll probably get some flack for this, I'll go ahead and add this perspective. Honestly, for suppressing fire alone, just for the purpose of keeping their heads down so your team can get position on them, it would be hard to beat a .22 rifle (probably 10/22) with several large-capacity magazines and a speed loader. Since its purpose would really be little more than keeping lead flying in direction of the enemy, I think it would suffice. Also, with "hi velocity" bulk ammo around 1300fps, with a 200-yd zero you get about 16" of rise at 100 yards, and about 24" of drop at 250 yards. Thus, aiming at COM will still put POI, vertically at least, somewhere on the body between zero and 250 yards! It might not kill them, but you will still likely hit them, as perhaps no more than an 8" horizontal spread at those ranges is easily doable even with a stock-barreled 10/22. Even if it doesn't hit them, if the purpose is suppressing fire they will still definately hear the bullets going by or hitting the dirt, and would stay down for sure! Though, realistically, as it sounds like you are quite good with your current BA rifles, you won't have any trouble keeping heads down with your rifle (if you don't actually put them down for good in the first place, heh). Are your rifles magazine fed? If so, just buy a few of those and I'd think you will be fine! I actually just thought of something else. If you are busy popping off rounds in one direction, the distraction of the noise and focusing on one area might actually be a disadvantage, allowing others enemies to flank you. It might be better to just sit and hide out, watching out as best as you can, taking only perhaps a few shots when you are actually shooting at something. And hell, the money you'd spend on even a cheap .22 rifle setup could buy at least a thousand rounds of rifle ammo or reloading equipment (if not far more, depending on the caliber), allowing for lots of practice.

05-28-2009, 10:18 AM	#44
cjleete Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 478	Well if you're thinking of a "SHTF" scenario, then that is a good doctrine to go by for defending your home. I'm in the city, where think my best bet would to be to get out of the city. So let's game that for a bit and see what we come up with.

05-29-2009, 08:06 AM	#47
cjleete Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 478	Hmm , thinking of "The Omega Man"?

05-29-2009, 12:00 PM	#48
don5544 Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 130	I believe a gun without ammo is a stick. A broken gun is a stick. Yes guns break. I am a competitive shooter and the best weapons break at the worst time. My rule is at least two guns of any caliber. One of my Ar's is set up as a target rifle. less than 1" groups at 100 yrds. If I would want something I have a G3 that uses 308. Talk about pentration with FMJ ammo. I can take the farm house apart. I would love the farm house because you really have a good setup. Nothing is perfect. If I had to run. A 357 mag pistol and a 357 mag rifle. Same ammo. 158gr ammo with a velocity of 2000 fps will hurt. Make plans and pray nothing happens.

05-29-2009, 06:16 PM	#51
don5544 Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 130	As far as a M60 goes. Three years ago I found a ton of belted M60 ammo cheap. Now I have lots of AP and tracer ammo. It does hurt when you step on a link bare footed. Found that 308 in a 20 rd clip can chew a railroad tie up pretty good. How about going through the tie and putting a hole in a 2" pipe. I have a great gun collection bought one gun a year over a long period. My wife say's I can buy a gun every time I buy her one. Mine cost $900. her's cost $250.

05-30-2009, 08:31 AM	#52
cjleete Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 478	Does your wife read the forums?

06-01-2009, 08:07 AM	#54
cjleete Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 478	Looks like next time you go gun shopping, you're getting the Ruger and she gets the new Sig

06-02-2009, 05:21 PM	#56
don5544 Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 130	My wife allowed me to buy another asault rifle and about $1K in ammo the week after the election. Right now she is bugging me about more .380 ammo whuch is non existant at the gun stores.

06-03-2009, 01:54 AM	#57
Mike U. Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Oz, right next door to The Lollipop Guild HQ Posts: 120	Ya know, my BIL had that same complaint about .380 ACP ammo. Said he couldn't find it anywhere. It's been four-five months ago when he first mentioned it and he did so again just last week. I assume the .380 is extremely popular with the non-gun nut, average Joe. __________________ Gettin' old ain't fer sissies...

06-03-2009, 02:40 AM	#58
thrillbilly Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ozark Hill Country Posts: 3,184	^It's just that a gazilion cheap .380s are out there, jennings and such. Kind of like .38s, it's hard to find them because beacoup people have one stuck in their sock drawer. __________________ *" I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on."* John Wayne

06-03-2009, 09:04 AM	#59
cjleete Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 478	This household has 2 .38's in strategic places. As well as a .44. They're not the current fashion of hi-cap plastic or "custom" 1911's but they will do the job.

06-27-2009, 01:48 AM	#60
cubesmoothie Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 27	Sounds like you have plenty of firepower. I'm opting for an AK variant to get aquainted with it as my main rifle. I have several deer rifles and some .22's pumps and break barrels, a few shotguns, and a powerfull .40 caliber semi auto pistol. The way i see it though the AK can take a beating and if shtf i'd feel comfortable knowing that the rifle will go bang even if i have to swim a creek.