Taurus Judge and The Box O Truth

[KW Gary M]

I'm not sure how many other people read the Box O Truth site but I really find it educational. They seem to test different guns and different Ammo and give a fair honest report. Check out their review of The Judge.

The Box O' Truth #41 - The Taurus Judge Vs. The Box O' Truth - Page 1

[SgtKnuckles]

"The Box O' Truth" REBUT...
I own "The Judge" ~ Like "The Judge" ~ And Never Tried To Get Anybody To Buy "The Judge"
I don't expect you to believe what I have to SAY... Soooooo, I always Backup with Reputable LINKS & VIDEO CLIPS from Web Sites of People you all Trust...
I'm dumping more food for thought on you than the Old Fart did... The right Bullet for your Guns is always about what you plan on using it for...
I read "The Box O' Truth" web site all the time... and finding the same Disturbing thing in most tests... Not a vary good analysis of the Physics of what's happening in the test... I'm not disputing any of the data that was accumulated during the test... But, the data is just dumped in a pile, for the reader to make his own assumptions...<:-((
The testing is weak, and the analysis sucks as usual...
1) Penetration. the FBI's 12" Gel FPE rule is used to reference a rounds ability to penetrate windshields, and car doors in Gun fights, stopping the BadGuy... (me and you would normally come up against Shirts & Jackets in Self Defence situations) If it was all about penetration, we would all be using FMJ's...
The Experts Say ~ Read the Info in this PDF file: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
Also Read this: Here is two pages of Bullet Basics http://tinyurl.com/23huab
2) Now in this Link you will see that to shoot a BadGuy the Cops use Special Soft Hollow Points when shooting the BadGuy so as to get 100% of the Bullets energy into the BadGuy (a shoot through is wasted energy)... http://tinyurl.com/yv9sjp
3) The Test: 45LC... 14 1/2" Nice... But, it traveled 2 1/2" beyond the FBI 12" rule (a shootthrough Shot) 20% energy lost because there was to much penetration... The BadGuy did not absorb 100% of the Bullets energy... ( the old fart did say that it was a bad Bullet. What he meant, was that the bullet didn't slow down enough to stop by the Sacred 12"... Now lets expand on this a little. As seen in the GEL test in this Link: Gel testing the .32 ACP http://tinyurl.com/yel7nu A little .32 can get 15" penetration...!!!
4) The Test: OOO BuckShot... Lets clear up some more bad info & analysis... First off a OOO Buck ball is .360 not the .340 that was stated, check this Link: http://tinyurl.com/35z6nz and the next info that had No analysis was as follows... That "little .410" round in OOO Buckshot (3 balls) is roughly equivalent to Three rounds of 9mm - simultaneously delivered... The 9mm pistol may be criticized for a lack of stopping power, but there's no doubt that three .360 caliber balls delivered simultaneously packs a serious wallop...<:-)) Now lets talk about the 4 1/2" of penetration of that Buck Ball, X 3 = 13 1/2" of penetration, and expanded to 45cal or more as seen in the test, and 100% of the energy absorbed by the BadGuy... Now how about that 4 1/2"... Put your finger on your chest, and think 4 1/2" deep... 4 1/2" puts 1 ball in each Lung, and 1 in the Heart using the Spacing, and Depth that was shown in the Test... I agree that I would like to see at least 2" more penetration, just for good measure... Yup, Dead soft lead balls...<:-(( This is a problem that was reveiled in the test... I must check my OOO Buck Winchesters to see if they use Chilled Hardened Lead Balls...???
5) The Test: .410 Slug... why would you... The gun shoots 45LC's out to a 100 yards, D'oh... My range test says all you need to know...
6) The Test: #6 bird shot... Don't get hit in the Face with it at 5 feet... BadGuy would die almost instantly from a brain shot through the eye sockets...
7) My own Range test below gives some general AMMO info... I actually tested a Full range of AMMO for the Judge... You can Buy every Size .410 Shot shells on the web... I did...!!!
8) Lets answer another Question: +P But Not +P+
This is from page 4 of the Taurus catalog: +P RATED FOR DUTY USE®
All Taurus handguns are engineered to accept a steadydiet of factory-new Plus-P (+P) ammunition built to SAAMI specifications. This includes the Ultra-Lite hammer forged aluminum alloys, Titanium, blue steel and stainless steel models. Rest assured, your Taurus will be ready, especially when you’re counting on it.
Why is it that every time I go to "The Box O' Truth" web site I think of this LINK...???
http://tinyurl.com/ynweu5
~Will the Judge Shoot out through a closed car window if need be is the Question~
Well you Know "The Number "ONE" Rule of Gun Self-Defense"~If you have to use your Gun in a Fight or DIE situation, and you have decided to "Protect and Defend", You always take "TWO" quick Shots... NOT just one test shot...!!! Now you re-adjust your aim, and empty your Gun if needed... Make's the Window situation a Moot Point, (no window on second split second shot)...
NOTE: The Judge is a Meat Grinder Plain and Simple... You can empty the Gun in just under Two Seconds (1 1/2) That would put 15 000 Buck on target (same as 15 9mm's) and really mess up a BG's day...!!! Point and Shoot Babe~Point and Shoot Babe... Theres no place for a BG to hide from an instant Barrage like that...!!!
Range Report... "THE JUDGE"
This Gun has a Medium Frame ~ It's just a Puppy ~ hehehe...<:-))
Ahhhhhh, the Smell of Black Powder Burning in the Morning... "S W E E T" ...<:-)) See Pics...
I said that I would get to the Range, and shoot all the listed AMMO...
Well I did, and I will tell you what I liked...
1) Black Dawge's Black Powder~Most Fun you can have at the Range shooting Double Action as fast as you can empty that Wheel... Just like a Cannon... A column of Smoke rolls out there about 10 feet, and a foot in Diameter... hehehe Cool...<:-))
2) SilverTip Hollow Points~These were most accurate... I think the Jacket took the rifling the Best...<:-)) It's a Killer... You know I will have two of these in Hole #4 & #5 of that Wheel...<:-))
3) 7 1/2 & 6's Shot Winchester Super X HS~Snakes aren't going to like these...!!!...<:-))
4) 4 Shot Winchester Super X HS~Bad Guy won't like these...!!! Good Pattern & Damn near went through a 2x4...Maybe some did...!!! OUCH...!!!...<:-))
5) OOO BuckShot (.360)(3 Balls) ~ These are down right Killers, for Home Defense... Just Point and Shoot... not Aim and Shoot...<:-)) I feel a little tingle Knowing what these Babe's will do...<:-))
6) Rifled SLUG Hollow Points~Absolutely useless in this gun... The Gun don't shoot them... It Spits them... Hyper Fast~97Gr.~Don't touch the Rifling~some of them Key-Holing...
7) Nickel John Wayne's~Nice Big Bang... 250Gr. ... You know it's Deadly...
8) RNFP ULTRAMAX~Nice light shooter... You could shoot this all day at targets, and the Lady's Like this one the Best...
9) A-MERC~Good general Round... It will Kill anything you Hit With It...<:-))
AMMO List:
45 Colt 250 Gr. LFN Winchester Nickel John Wayne's
45 Colt 200 Gr. RNFP ULTRAMAX
45 Colt 250 Gr. RNL A-MERC
45 Colt 235 Gr. RNFP GEOX Black Dawge's Black Powder
45 Colt 225 Gr. Winchester SilverTip Hollow Points +P Super X
.410 HighBrass 7 1/2 Shot Winchester Super X HS
.410 HighBrass 6 Shot Winchester Super X HS
.410 HighBrass 4 Shot Winchester Super X HS
.410 HighBrass OOO BuckShot (3 Balls) Winchester Super X HS
.410 HighBrass Rifled SLUG Hollow Points Winchester Super X HS
~RangePics~
http://members.aol.com/normtrudeau/1Range.jpg
http://members.aol.com/normtrudeau/2Range.jpg
http://members.aol.com/normtrudeau/3Range.jpg

[TXplt]

All I can say is the goal of my home/car defensive judges is to negate the threat I'm likely to face. A hit with birdshot/buckshot is going to be better than a miss with a Colt. If I load mine bird, buck, colt I get a very high probability of an incapacitating hit under stress and adverse environmentals.

It's good to read other sources' inputs on the gun, and I need to understand the gun has penetration issues with bird and potentially buck, but I have little doubt on its ability to fulfill it's intended purpose. If I'm shooting at Jello, Water, or pine boards maybe I'll use another gun. For now, my judges fill the bill.

[samuel]

Thanks SK,for the great info.It shows the "JUDGE" like it really is. sam.

[Taurus Fan]

Unless a person is within arm's reach, birdshot will most likely annoy them and make them most unhappy with you. 000 Buckshot pellets weigh 70 grains and from a 3" barrel the velocity will be quite low, hardly comparable to 3 hits from a 9mm, but at very close range it would probably suffice, though the spread and penetration at any distance past a few feet may not be considered adequate. Stick with .45 Colt for defense and save the .410 for show and tell.

[samuel]

Taurus Fan:Have you done any testing that you can post and disprove what was posted?I surely don't know and would be intrested in any such proof that only .45,s would be any good in the "judge". sam.

[Taurus Fan]

Originally Posted by samuel

Taurus Fan:Have you done any testing that you can post and disprove what was posted?I surely don't know and would be intrested in any such proof that only .45,s would be any good in the "judge". sam.

I thought the Box O' Truth testing pretty much demonstrated the shortcomings of the .410 for defense, whether it's birdshot or 000 buck, penetration was pitiful with both. A person wearing a heavy leather jacket would barely know the birdshot had hit him. Probably be enough if the person is standing right next to you and wearing a swimsuit. I don't see how anyone could look at their results and reach any other conclusion.

Pistol cartridges loaded with bird shot have always been known to be a terrible choice for defense, and the .410 is in the same class, not that much more than a big .45 Colt case with shotshell. The 000 buck, each pellet weighing 70 grains and maybe moving at 800 fps (just a guess) from the 3" barrel would make each pellet comparable to a .32 ACP, not a 9mm. I'd rather have a .45 Colt slug to reach out and touch someone with.

[TXplt]

Originally Posted by Taurus Fan

I thought the Box O' Truth testing pretty much demonstrated what I said. Did you read it?

Actually (have read it), no, for the case of buck. The shot was flattened (by something), and shot from factory loads cut down, so I'd to be honest doubt some of its validity. When clocked (via another source) the buck was around 950 fps; similar to a .380 load x 3 --out of a 3" bbl--not counting any synergistic effects if shot at very close range.

I'd agree that shots outside of 5 yds or so with birdshot are going to be very sparse patterns, but this is a short range gun when used with bird (and, again, wouldn't rely on this to stop a determined attacker--that's why mine stage with bird, buck, colt). You might have a look at here--doesn't look like something I'd like to get hit with, and my skin isn't as thick as a hamhock.

http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus-Judge.htm

If you always score hits and never worry about overpenetration, more power to ya. Most people (including trained pros) don't.

[Taurus Fan]

Originally Posted by TXplt

Actually (have read it), no, for the case of buck. The shot was flattened (by something), and shot from factory loads cut down, so I'd to be honest doubt some of its validity. When clocked (via another source) the buck was around 950 fps; similar to a .380 load x 3 --out of a 3" bbl--not counting any synergistic effects if shot at very close range.

I'd agree that shots outside of 5 yds or so with birdshot are going to be very sparse patterns, but this is a short range gun when used with bird (and, again, wouldn't rely on this to stop a determined attacker--that's why mine stage with bird, buck, colt). You might have a look at here--doesn't look like something I'd like to get hit with, and my skin isn't as thick as a hamhock.

Here Comes the Judge! Taurus .45/410 Revolver

If you always score hits and never worry about overpenetration, more power to ya. Most people (including trained pros) don't.

If it gives you peace of mind to alternate birdshot/buckshot .410 loads in your Judge, go for it. I'd rather have a cylinder full of .45 Colt ammo in my hand. Truth is, it's unlikely either of us will ever have to use it, and anything is better than a kitchen knife or broken bottle.

[GlockMeister]

5 feet or 50 feet. I'd hate to be staring down the barrel of one. You just don't know if it's a shotshell or a .45 long colt round waiting to come out? lmao I like them, I really do. I just don't believe they were meant to be used as a duty or carry gun, In your car to prevent being car jacked, oh hell yes. In your home as a home defense gun, oh hellyea.

As I said in a previous thread, if I had the money, I'd buy one. But there are quite a few others that are ahead of it on my wishlist, which it is on I might add. If anyone wants to be super nice, my B-Day is coming up in about oh, let's see, today's the 22nd of July, 9 days left in it, and mmm, about 22 days I think and I'd gladly except it. Blued or stainless, either or. lol

[TXplt]

Sounds good, Taurus Fan

Glock, I also agree-- I see this as a trail/camping/riding/car/home defense type of gun. Although I do sometimes carry the UL as a CCW (mostly out of admitted laziness--my carry pistol was somewhere else) this gives me some pause, and I wouldn't recommend it in potentially crowded areas--the shot charge (both bird and buck) simply spreads out too quickly due to the rifled bbl and might hit something you don't want it to. It's also kinda bulky, even in the 3" version.

Enjoy !

[SwedeSteve]

I do not own a Judge, but after reading all this and exploring the links provided, I'd have to say that 2 rounds of 000, and 3 in 45LC would be a good start. In a home defense situation, where you have family members in the house, I'd probably go with four 7 1/2's and 1 45LC (I actually use a shotgun for HD). Being concerned with overpenetration, that would probably be the safest set up. I sleep upstairs, and I have a stairway that makes two turns on the way down. Meeting a BG on the stairs is my worst nightmare. The 7 1/2's would probably be ideal in this situation !! Just point the pistol around the corner in the general direction and start shooting. With 40+ pieces of shot going down the stairs, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get him to turn and run. Look at the pattern at 12 feet as shown in the link provided by TF (thanks TF): http://www.gunblast.com/images/Tauru...e/DSC00285.jpg

[HEMI]

2 heavy, anything from a 38 to a 45 is more controlable,lighter, easier to conceal and have a better track record of 1 shot stops. In my opinion a totally useless weapon.
That said looks like a fun gun 2 plink with thats all.

[TXplt]

^ You're entitled to your opinion, my Canadian friend, but I certainly don't think it's useless (especially for home and self defense). You'd find a bunch of locals here that would agree with me--at least if sales of firearms count.

Ever shot one ?

[Rimjob]

The viability of the Judge is viable and damn near optimal in some situations!!..... and I'd like to have one sitting on my dresser! you may have seen on the news 5 guys here in birmingham just had their throats slit! My wife has be scaared to death!! Needless to say the mossburg is propped up close by...lol

[HEMI]

The 45 a good round but there are way better options for self defence. The judge is only viable because of the fact its a gun that is all. There is no magic. They are not accurate with the 45s or 410s. Will the bad guys run in fear because its the Judge and not a 38?, No. Name 1 thing this gun can do as far as self defence goes that a 357 cannot. If you have 1 and like it good for you, me if I want a shotgun I"ll use my 870 12 g with 00buck if I want a pistol i"ll use my 40cal with gold dots. Can your Judge with either the 45 or 410 match this preformance NOPE.

[billy]

the one thing they have going for them to me is
they DO look pretty cool.
but ive already got four guns that shoot .45long colt
and i dont want a shotgun.

[billy]

Lessons learned:
1. Jack bought this pistol for snakes and it looks like a fine tool for that job.

2. Birdshot, in any gauge, is for little birds.

3. Buckshot out of a .410 does not penetrate enough to be an effective personal defense load.

4. The rifled slug was also a disappointment and did not have enough weight or power or penetration to be effective as a defense load.

5. The .45 Long Colt loads had plenty of penetration and would be the preferred defense load for this pistol.

6. It's fun to bust clays with this pistol.

And, as usual, it's always fun to shoot stuff.

[TXplt]

Seen this, and do very much disagree about the effectiveness of buck out of the gun; especially disagree with test method buck cut down for the test itself and flattened prior to hitting the target -- although the flat buck would definitely cause damage, and 4-5" gives you well into the chest cavity. An unfortunate Mis-ID shooting in AK had a .410 style buck load causing quite a bit of damage. Well incapacating.

I think 3 000 buck at close range from this pistol (with 900ish MV) would be pretty nasty to get hit with. If you stage it bird, buck, buck, colt or bird buck colt or similar I think you have an extremely effective home defense/car defense gun.

HEMI--my Judges will give me inside 3" with the normal and inside 4" with the UL at 50' standing shots with .45 colt--that's not accurate enough for a self defense pistol ?

A .357 won't give me a shot pattern or multiple projectiles that spread out significantly at close range, increasing the probability of a hit under stress. None of us miss shooting paper; maybe not so much when the paper starts shooting back. .357 vs. .45 colt is probably a wash.

Some of us have a home and car situation that precludes having an open access shotgun around, and need a handgun (in a fast access safe). I'd say my judge will be as effective, if not a great deal more so than your .40 cal in a shot with poor environmentals or under stress, or even normal conditions for that matter.

[HEMI]

You can get shotshells for a 357.not 000 but bird shot.
If you trust it TX use it, I don't so i'll carry what is proven to work.