06-17-2008, 02:28 AM
| #1 |
| Registered User Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10
| .308 overkill for coyotes?
so i've recently been interested in getting started in varmit hunting, primarily coyotes here in southern nevada. i probaly will start hunting other animals down the line. i have assault rifles and handguns but this will be my first hunting rifle. i always assumed i'd get a .308 for my first bolt action but don't want to blow the coyote up to nothing. it seems a .223 would be a better choice but i want to get a .308. maybe because its just been burned into my head or just a little bit of my ego that wants a bigger caliber. which has a longer effective range the .308 or the .223? theres alot of open desert out here. thanks.
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06-17-2008, 02:57 AM
| #2 |
| Super Moderator   |
There is no doubt that the 308 is better and more accurate at longer ranges. I would use ball ammo personally if it is legal in your area...It will just put a .30 cal hole right thru them...Soft point ammo would be pretty devastating. 1000 yard shots are not uncommon with a good scope and practice !!! Learning windage and Yardages will increase your chances significantly. Welcome to G&G !!! Rich
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06-17-2008, 03:05 AM
| #3 |
| Mr. Fixit   |
Welcome to G&G! In response to your question, a .223 will allow more practice, a flatter trajectory. and excellent performance out to 500 +-IF You Practice! Don't think that you can grab any old AR-15 and pop 'yotes @ 300 yds.-it takes lots of practice and discipline. A larger cal. really won't make that much difference other than making you flinch. The .308 will take larger game at 300+ yds than a .223 but it takes years of training to be able to do it. I'd suggest starting with a .223 in a know accurate platform before jumping into a .308
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06-17-2008, 07:05 AM
| #4 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,503
| Personally, . . .
I feel the .243 and a target/varmit barrel is more to the task for a coyote hunt plus the fact that many shots will be made at distance.
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06-17-2008, 07:32 AM
| #5 | |
| Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tn
Posts: 623
| Quote:
308 Win 55 gr PSP 3600 fps (20 Rounds) - Wisconsin Cartridge LLC. | |
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06-17-2008, 09:03 AM
| #6 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,087
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06-17-2008, 09:41 AM
| #7 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Attica, Ohio
Posts: 848
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i would say get the .223 first. it will do work on coyotes out to 300+ yards and then if your still up for the .308 get that also. or if you have a friend that has a .308 ask if you can use it on a coyote or if he already has have him tell you what it does to it.
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06-17-2008, 10:34 AM
| #8 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Parker, CO
Posts: 1,340
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Go with the .308. You're talking about open desert, the ranges on those 'yotes will far exceed 300 yards, and a .223 won't cut it.
__________________ What she doesn't know about, doesn't piss her off.....  |
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06-17-2008, 11:01 AM
| #9 | |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pipestone, MN.
Posts: 352
| Quote:
Be that as it may,,,if I were looking at buying a rig for coyotes. Of your choices I would go with the .223, it's just much better suited for the task. And it's more than capable of taking yotes at ranges past normal situations that you'll encounter. If I were looking at a dual use rig, then I would opt for the .243 as others have mentioned. There is nothing wrong with using the .308, I just wouldn't consider it the best or ideal, when you considering other options. It's your money however, so use what suits your wants. Dave Last edited by Onesonek; 06-17-2008 at 11:41 AM. | |
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06-17-2008, 11:18 AM
| #10 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 292
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As there are not different degrees of dead, there is no such thing as overkill on varmints...
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06-17-2008, 01:02 PM
| #11 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,087
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06-17-2008, 02:47 PM
| #12 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pipestone, MN.
Posts: 352
| Quote:
Next, I used the Nolser BT 50 gr. 3400 fps, 68 fps below max in my Hodgdons manual listing. I used the Hornady 150 gr FMJ as the FMJ was brought up, at 2900 fps, 30 below max in same manual. They are both Boattails, compared to the TNT being a flatbase against a boattail. The TNT is going to lose velocity a lot faster, but I do believe those published numbers from the SB. They just don't show what can be acheived. So, with the bullets and speeds above, the ballistic program ran them as such with a 10mph cross wind and both using a point blank range set for a 3" target and a 1.7" scope height and same barometric settings,,,,, .308 150gr. fmj crosses line of sight at 37.6 and 193.1 yds 800 yds, -21.22 moa, drift 7.61 moa remaing velocity 1422 fps remaing ft/lbs 674 .223 50 gr. nbt crosses line of sight at 44 and 224.4 yds 800 yds -14.51 moa, drift 6.32 moa remaining velocity 1658 fps remainig ft/lbs 305 Now I'm positive you can close these gaps by going to .30 cal 125 gr nbt and driving it faster. And at some point and time downrange, the slow .308 with the better BC will over take the faster lower BC .223,,,but it's way beyond a 1000 yds. And I don't use factory pubishings as generally they are weak due to liability issues, and too, not always the best components are put together for my needs or wants in factory loads, not saying the TNT is a bad bullet, just one I wont use when range is concerned. The 165 BT is a great bullet, but opens quick too, and won't be pelt friendly. The FMJ will save on pelts if that is part of the desire,,,but I'm not sure what the off side would look like if a rib is hit on exit. I don't have a .223 myself,,,my taste has gone with the .22-250 or .220. But longest kill I have personally witnessed with a .223 was made by my brother using the 50 NBT's loaded slightly faster than those ran on the program, at 642 paces standing still and facing us. he went down as if something cut his legs off. Thats not 800, but I still believe 800 isnt out the realm of the .223. Dave I should have added,,,,long range ballistics are somewhat a moot point however,,,if the rifle doesn't have the accuracy, and or the skill isn't up to it. That and, one can learn the differences, just the flatter shooting the round is, alittle easier it may be. Last edited by Onesonek; 06-17-2008 at 03:08 PM. Reason: addition | |
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06-17-2008, 04:20 PM
| #13 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cobra Command Headquarters
Posts: 814
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That's incredible. Unbelievable, even. Last edited by Taurus Fan; 06-17-2008 at 04:44 PM. | |
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06-17-2008, 04:25 PM
| #14 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,087
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I am not going to get into another,as someone called it "pissing"dispute as I promised myself I wouldn't do it any more no matter how far out the post was.Tell you what.You go ahead and shoot all the coyotes with a 50gr .224cal bullet at 750/800yds you want to.I will caution everyone else it is a virtual imposibility,even using the .220 Swift.I was only backing Mooseman and trying to talk common sense.Mooseman is well capable of defending himself,especially on something this rediculous.Anyone that knows anything about the .22cal centerfire cartridges will know the facts here.I wish you luck. sam.
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06-17-2008, 07:34 PM
| #15 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pipestone, MN.
Posts: 352
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Facts? I gave you what you ask, when I do comparisions, I try my best to keep the bullets between calibers/chamberings as equal as possible. In this case it wasn't. But comparing 2 factory loads one being a flatbase and one a boattail deffinately isn't going the same direction. The facts are there, you have to be willing to see them. The subject that came into question was the accuracy issue. While the .308 is known for inherant accuracy, it don't mean that the .223, .220, or any other chambering can't be or is by nature any less accurate. By the same token,,,being inherantly accurate, don't necessarily mean every .308 you pick off a self will shoot with the needed accuracy. But the .223 or any other is in that same boat. If you don't believe Facts, download the free trial program from RSI and run the numbers. I have been using their program for a number of years now, and it's as close as any other as I have tried. If you don't want to download and run the Facts yourself, I will print Facts and mail them to you. I'll admit when it comes to long range, I prefer the 6mm, but the point was and is, the.223/ 224's are capable. I just missed out a shoot out put on by Rich Mertz of MOA due to a wedding this past weekend. There is a well documented and witnessed shot using a .224 took a double PD at 1140 yds, and they are a tad smaller target than a yote. So don't tell me it's impossible. I wouldn't attempt a yote at that distance with a .223, as bullet performance is getting real ify. Thats why I elected to do the program comparision end at 750-800 yds. cuz for me personally it's the limit for use on yote sized critter with the .223. The Fact is,,, it is possible, and I have nothing to gain by going outsuide the Facts in such discussions. And yes Mooseman could have "defended" himself as you state, yet you jumped the gun. That don't matter to me, I was happy to answer your questions. As I know there are a number of people out there thinking about long range, and would be interested to know, and they deserve an answer just as you. But if you aren't going to look at the Facts, the question was pointless. You didn't believe it possible when you asked, and you don't believe it now. So I don't understand your last post at all. I have read some of the stuff you have posted Sam, some I agree with and some I don't totally, but for the most part I believe we see things pretty much the same. But this last post has me thinking what you don't understand, is long range. And the difference between long range shooting accuracy and inherant accuracy. And if you don't intend to get into a PM, in things you don't understand, then either open your eyes and look at the Facts, or keep quiet. I don't know how you can call something rediculous when it's right front of you. Normally I wouldn't get this fired up, but someone ask a honest question and then gets honest answer of the Facts , then calls them a dumbass liar,,,,well I take offense to that, whether it be me or someone else. Or were you just trying to pick a fight? cuz the caution flag is down, and I don't have a lot patience for ignorance when the information is at your fingertips. | |
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06-17-2008, 07:58 PM
| #16 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 741
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Maybe I'm missing something, as I have not read every word of this interesting discussion. My little pea brain had in it, without benefit of analysis, the idea that the .308 shoots flatter at 800 yards than any .223 55-grain load. So no one would accuse me of cooking the numbers, instead of using the ballistics software I wrote myself, I resorted to Remington's ballistic program for factory loads. Here is what I found: .223, 55 Accu-tip, 200 yard zero, drop is 223 inches at 800 yards. .308, 150 Swift Scirocco, 200 yard zero, drop is 185 inches at 800 yards. The difference is 38 inches, or over three feet. Winner: .308. Note even the "flatter-shooting" .308 drops 15 feet from zero! Now, if I had to shoot a coyote at 800 yards, I would not necessarily choose either cartridge. But, having some experience at long range shooting, I can tell you that hitting anything at 800 yards is pretty tough, no matter what the cartridge. It gets easier on a formal range at known distances, but it's never exactly duck soup. My coyote gun is a .22-250 Ackley. It does nicely out to 400 yards. I have used the .223 at 400, as well as the .308 (and others). All are useful. I do not have any experience with the .223 at ranges longer than 400 meters, nor with the .308 at ranges longer than 600 yards, but both are challenges, at least to me. No matter the range, range estimation will be your biggest bugaboo, assuming you have a reasonably accurate rifle and some skill.
__________________ Certified rifle and pistol instructor Last edited by rfc357; 06-17-2008 at 08:01 PM. |
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06-17-2008, 08:20 PM
| #17 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pipestone, MN.
Posts: 352
| Quote:
Very few would use those spendy loads for yote. But by the same token,,you can do the same thing,,,,change the .223 to a 80 gr Berger witha bc of .471( provided it twisted right) , run it out near max and be back in the same boat as before. Dave | |
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06-17-2008, 10:32 PM
| #18 |
| Registered User Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10
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so from what i've read, and thanks to you all, the 223 is good up to about 400yds and the 308 beyond that. both with skill. i do want to keep the pelts in good condition to get them tanned and haven't heard that the 308 will ruin it. so what it seems i haveto decide is my range and how much i'm gonna flinch when the round goes off, correct?
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06-17-2008, 11:26 PM
| #19 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,087
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With a little practice,out to 300yds you dont have to worry much about range and if you flinch,you miss. sam.
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06-18-2008, 06:40 AM
| #20 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Limbri NSW Au
Posts: 296
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I'm with silent shooter, dead is dead, unless you plan on keeping/selling skins and most shot will be under 200, 308 is just more fun. Also and i'll get yelled at here, a 308/150gn setup has a larger kill probablilty because it makes a bigger trauma area. These figures below are made up but will show my point. A 223/55gn will make a 3" trauma in an animal so you need to hit with in 3" of a vital organ at a given ranges, say 200 yards. A 308 has a 5" trauma so you need only be with 5" of a vital to put the animal down at the same range.
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